Future purchase: RE or VST equivalent.

[VariableX]

Also, the lack of new RE from 3rd part devs doesn't signify that RE as a product would be abandoned and cease to work. It's not as if Reason Studios doesn't make REs themselves.

This reminds me of why the Sega Saturn ultimately failed (the Dreamcast too come to think of it). Minimal 3rd party support, zero support from the huge developers like EA, Squaresoft, and Namco, and Sega desperately pumping out their own games trying to keep the system alive. Meanwhile the shiny new Sony Playstation was getting all the big publishers on board. Sega's hardware was also harder to develop for, and the early SDKs were basic, resulting in inferior titles when compared to their Playstation counterparts.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. The writing is on the wall, fellas.

the main reason playstation took over was because you could pirate the games very easily...

[VariableX]

For what its worth I much prefer REs for all the same reasons as have been mentioned, plus, the standard way of searching and loading patches is also a massive attraction.

Now I will buy a VST if i like one but if there is a RE available for the same device I will always get the RE. This choice being right for me was further confirmed when I bought the VST of Inphonics Rym2612 because it was cheaper than the RE, instant regret i found it really clunky and didnt like the way you loaded patched, thankfully Inphonic gave me a license for the RE for free and I really love the device its top notch.

If anyone prefers to use this device (rym2612) as a VST over the RE, and they have both, I'd call them a liar

[Proboscis]

If we get 50 new RE's this year is not that bad when you think about it
the Shop covers almost everything you need in FX and a new Compressor or EQ might not change much, they are often emulations of a hardware device made in the 60's or 70's, so they are new but not new. Synths are often just reinventing the wheel and hyping it up to get people to buy them when in reality they are only the same with a few other futures
But yes the shop will need new devices if only because new customers will hesitate to buy a device made in 2014 because it looks like it's old.

I would be surprised if we see 50 new RE's in 2020. For me, I have far more RE's than I even use, and am a firm believer that no amount of tools make for a great track. And if I ever want to treat myself, there are plenty of RE's already that I am interested in - but I've gone a bit sour about Propellerheads lack of action on updating existing core elements. Sure the third party developers are the ones who suffer, but they seem not to care too much about growing their partner agreements.

That said, Propellerhead need someone with experience in the market, and a vision for the future, which IMO has always been lacking. Now more than ever, they have tremendous opportunities. With the Reason Rack VST, the technology is in place for them to make a free blank wrapper, allowing any DAW user to buy RE's, without requiring a Reason license. With close to 1000 in the shop (I'll conservatively say 500 paid plugins) they could then market the shit out of the platform, and it's an easy profit, since the assets have already been developed, virtually no work for a 30% commission. In fact, if done right, they could put themselves up against Native Instruments in the marketplace. And move into more high quality sampled instruments - again the assets are out there, they just need to buy up what they can from sound recordists. It's a potential that with grow upon itself when people start to discover the back-of-rack routing.

[chaosroyale]

How long do you think it will take them to develop a modern sampler to compete with Kontakt?* Or a modern supersynth? If Reason is going to be a competitor to NI they need to step up their game. Nobody thinking about getting Kontakt is going to buy Reason to use those frickin' basic romplers. It hurts to say that, because back in the day, Reason really was the tool for advanced sound design.

*I am pretty sure they are never going to do this, unfortunately.

In fact, if done right, they could put themselves up against Native Instruments in the marketplace. And move into more high quality sampled instruments

[QVprod]

How long do you think it will take them to develop a modern sampler to compete with Kontakt?* Or a modern supersynth? If Reason is going to be a competitor to NI they need to step up their game. Nobody thinking about getting Kontakt is going to buy Reason to use those frickin' basic romplers. It hurts to say that, because back in the day, Reason really was the tool for advanced sound design.

*I am pretty sure they are never going to do this, unfortunately.

In fact, if done right, they could put themselves up against Native Instruments in the marketplace. And move into more high quality sampled instruments

I think trying to compete with Native Instruments on sample libraries is pointless at this point. NI has a whole ecosystem with Komplete Kontrol. That said, on the developer side they already have a modern sampler. Provided they made it possible to store RE samples on external hard drives, they could potentially be appealing to smaller Kontakt developers who aren’t able to afford to acquire the ‘Powered by Kontakt’ licenses.

[Andy]

I prefer to buy the REs. REs are dead talk reminds me of the "Props are dead" talk years ago.

Hi Andy, as with you, I'm all for Rack Extensions, but there are some undeniable truths to be faced. Since their inception six or so years ago, there are far less third party developers releasing plugins. Some of the early adopters to the format have more or less stated publicly that they are no longer interested, and others have been very vocal about lack of support from Propellerhead. This doesn't bother me so much since I have plenty of tools to use / learn, and there are plenty of older RE's that are on my wishlist. But as much as it's my preferred plugin format, I would suggest that, while RE's may not yet be dead, we are in the final stages of it's life cycle.

Hi Proboscis, I will consider it dead when RS stop releasing REs and updates to the SDK and that does not seem to be the case any time soon. Final stages of its lifecycle? I disagree, we already see them doing all sorts of experiments with the format, web instruments, REs running on standalone hardware etc. So really knows what the future holds. As far as developer gripes and who is gone I honestly don't care and I have some strong opinions about the behavior of some of them but I will leave that alone.

I also keep seeing Native Instruments being mentioned. Didn't they recently lay off a ton of people? Death may not come where you expect it guys.

[stratatonic]

I prefer to buy the REs. REs are dead talk reminds me of the "Props are dead" talk years ago.

Technically, Props ARE dead, because for some reason, they changed the name from Propellerhead to Reason Studios.

Anyways, future (and past) purchases for me will always be dictated by price. If I can get a no-brainer deal with VST, I'll get that. Ditto with REs. I'm just a cheapskate, really - and there's a shit load of content in both Logic and Reason already, so I only have a handful of both VST and REs anyways - all bought at big discounts.

I love all the eloquent prognostications of Reason and Rack Extension's death in this thread. Maybe I just don't worry as much as some, because I haven't spent a lot of money on REs or bought every single Reason upgrade that comes out. I'll deal with The Demise when (if) it happens. I may expire before Reason does.

[chaosroyale]

Do you know something I don't? Like seriously, is there a proper sampler scaffold available to devs that isn't in the Reason Native devices? Why don't they put it in Reason?

Because you cannot possibly mean the NN-XT, a machine that is 17 years old, hasn't ever been updated (except the sampling button that everything got 10 years ago), and lacks proper automation, non-destructive loop crossfades, timestretch, etc etc.

That said, on the developer side they already have a modern sampler.

[QVprod]

Do you know something I don't? Like seriously, is there a proper sampler scaffold available to devs that isn't in the Reason Native devices? Why don't they put it in Reason?

Because you cannot possibly mean the NN-XT, a machine that is 17 years old, hasn't ever been updated (except the sampling button that everything got 10 years ago), and lacks proper automation, non-destructive loop crossfades, timestretch, etc etc.

That said, on the developer side they already have a modern sampler.

You’ve heard about it for years. IDT, Now Gorilla engine. The RE SDK includes the ability to make libraries similar to Kontakt. Pretty much most if not all of the sample based REs use it. Of course I’m not speaking about the NNXT, that’s why I said on the developer side.

[Boombastix]

Do you know something I don't? Like seriously, is there a proper sampler scaffold available to devs that isn't in the Reason Native devices? Why don't they put it in Reason?

Because you cannot possibly mean the NN-XT, a machine that is 17 years old, hasn't ever been updated (except the sampling button that everything got 10 years ago), and lacks proper automation, non-destructive loop crossfades, timestretch, etc etc.

You’ve heard about it for years. IDT, Now Gorilla engine. The RE SDK includes the ability to make libraries similar to Kontakt. Pretty much most if not all of the sample based REs use it. Of course I’m not speaking about the NNXT, that’s why I said on the developer side.

Yep, and Ujam has more info about it on their website. They did the virtual players (VB/VG) with Gorlilla, so I suppose you can script and so on. It is probably more of a question what engine do you design for? How many Halion or UVI libraries do you see? It is mostly Kontakt. Loopmasters made their sample player with Gorilla but that is a closed player.

But if the UVI engine is free and Kontakt is expensive, but still get all the developer attention, I guess it is pretty hard to penetrate that. And developers who has 10yrs invested into Kontakt scripting will probably prefer to invest into better Kontakt products rather than duplicating for another platform that has minimal sales impact.

But in the sample pack world Rex loops and NN-XT patches are THE standard, Kontakt or Maschine not so much. It is just that RS do not directly capitalize on the sample pack/loop market. Go figure. NI has Sounds.com but integration is crap, just like Splice. Only Loopmasters has functional integration.

[chaosroyale]

I had not heard of that - thanks for the information!

It raises some baffling questions in my head about why there is still not a proper sampler in Reason, but at least in theory it is possible for them to create one and prove me wrong, and I will happily eat a large slice of humble pie.

"Libraries" are probably a difficult market, Kontakt seems to have that sewn up. But my problem is not about libraries, it is that Reason doesn't have a modern sampler available to the user, probably the single most important tool for sound design.

You’ve heard about it for years. IDT, Now Gorilla engine. The RE SDK includes the ability to make libraries similar to Kontakt. Pretty much most if not all of the sample based REs use it. Of course I’m not speaking about the NNXT, that’s why I said on the developer side.

[SebAudio]

How long do you think it will take them to develop a modern sampler to compete with Kontakt?* Or a modern supersynth? If Reason is going to be a competitor to NI they need to step up their game. Nobody thinking about getting Kontakt is going to buy Reason to use those frickin' basic romplers. It hurts to say that, because back in the day, Reason really was the tool for advanced sound design.

*I am pretty sure they are never going to do this, unfortunately.

I think trying to compete with Native Instruments on sample libraries is pointless at this point. NI has a whole ecosystem with Komplete Kontrol. That said, on the developer side they already have a modern sampler. Provided they made it possible to store RE samples on external hard drives, they could potentially be appealing to smaller Kontakt developers who aren’t able to afford to acquire the ‘Powered by Kontakt’ licenses.

Perhaps they can compete with Reaktor on the synth side. In the same way, with the Triton released as a VST and complaints about KLC UIs not being updated I was thinking that if Reasons Rack were with hi-res graphics people could buy the RE versions of Korg’s synths…

[QVprod]

I think trying to compete with Native Instruments on sample libraries is pointless at this point. NI has a whole ecosystem with Komplete Kontrol. That said, on the developer side they already have a modern sampler. Provided they made it possible to store RE samples on external hard drives, they could potentially be appealing to smaller Kontakt developers who aren’t able to afford to acquire the ‘Powered by Kontakt’ licenses.

Perhaps they can compete with Reaktor on the synth side. In the same way, with the Triton released as a VST and complaints about KLC UIs not being updated I was thinking that if Reasons Rack were with hi-res graphics people could buy the RE versions of Korg’s synths…

I think the draw for Reaktor is a bit different. Reaktor synth programing is a different skill set than making a RE afaik. Unlike Kontakt libraries, Reaktor programmers would have to recreate their synth with Entirely different tools. As far as users, the people who really use Reaktor probably wouldn’t be interested unless Reason had at minimum a slew of modular parts rather than mostly full synths that can interact. They’re really different beasts.

I think a majority of Reaktor owners are just using the stuff that comes with Komplete like Monark.

[Rackman]

That said, Propellerhead need someone with experience in the market, and a vision for the future, which IMO has always been lacking. Now more than ever, they have tremendous opportunities. With the Reason Rack VST, the technology is in place for them to make a free blank wrapper, allowing any DAW user to buy RE's, without requiring a Reason license. With close to 1000 in the shop (I'll conservatively say 500 paid plugins) they could then market the shit out of the platform, and it's an easy profit, since the assets have already been developed, virtually no work for a 30% commission. In fact, if done right, they could put themselves up against Native Instruments in the marketplace. And move into more high quality sampled instruments - again the assets are out there, they just need to buy up what they can from sound recordists. It's a potential that with grow upon itself when people start to discover the back-of-rack routing.

I think that's exactly where we are headed. Reason as plugin will soon be handed out for free. IMHO Reason 11 is a dry run for this, and clever way to get people to pay to be beta testers. That then opens the market up massively without Propellerhead needing to do much. They can keep pumping out refill-based REs which are cheap and easy to produce and know there is a market for them. This will allow them to continue to ignore the sequencer and let it quietly die.

[chaosroyale]

This will allow them to continue to ignore the sequencer and let it quietly die.

It must really suck to read some of these comments (including mine) if you work at Reason Studios, because either:

A - Actually Reason 12 is gonna have a hi-res GUI, a Falcon-beating megasynth, and a complete workflow upgrade (and maybe even a free Unicorn)...but you can't say anything about it.

OR

B - You know some of the comments are correct and you are in fact waiting for Reason to die.

[Loque]

This will allow them to continue to ignore the sequencer and let it quietly die.

It must really suck to read some of these comments (including mine) if you work at Reason Studios, because either:

A - Actually Reason 12 is gonna have a hi-res GUI, a Falcon-beating megasynth, and a complete workflow upgrade (and maybe even a free Unicorn)...but you can't say anything about it.

OR

B - You know some of the comments are correct and you are in fact waiting for Reason to die.

Ok, now i want the unicorn.

[joeyluck]

I will always take the RE over the VST equivalent because Reason is my primary DAW and REs are simply better for workflow and creativity inside Reason. Of course there are simply VSTs that don't exist as REs, so I'm happy to use those.

Also, now that there is the Reason Rack Plugin AU, I am pushing more theatres and music directors of musicals to use the RRP AU running inside of Apple MainStage...which only accepts REs at the moment. I wish it supported VST hosting as well for myself personally, but at the same time, in a live situation and for patch editing, having a Rack of fully, quickly accessible UIs for combined instrument and effects without a bunch of floating windows is essential.

With REs I can help music directors design patches with the Rack and make edits with every parameter accessible with no extra windows. In a recording setting I can certainly deal with it...messing around on stage though during rehearsal or to troubleshoot during a performance, the RRP using just REs is actually pretty damn slick and intuitive.

[ltbrunt00]

I am all in for RE. I will admit I have purchased many VST's since 9.5 but unless VST devices get integrated like native Rack Extensions I will continue to buy the rack extensions.

Heck the Reason sales alone keeps me coming back. in another five years I will probably own most of the best devices.

[eXode]

With the Reason Rack VST, the technology is in place for them to make a free blank wrapper, allowing any DAW user to buy RE's, without requiring a Reason license. With close to 1000 in the shop (I'll conservatively say 500 paid plugins) they could then market the shit out of the platform, and it's an easy profit, since the assets have already been developed, virtually no work for a 30% commission. In fact, if done right, they could put themselves up against Native Instruments in the marketplace. And move into more high quality sampled instruments - again the assets are out there, they just need to buy up what they can from sound recordists. It's a potential that with grow upon itself when people start to discover the back-of-rack routing.

I suggested this very thing in another "forum", that props should have released a free RE Player Rack with Reason 11, or bundled when someone purchase a RE. It could be compared, in some ways, to the free Reaktor player which is needed for plugins like NI Razor or Monark.

[moneykube]

Ok, now i want the unicorn.

the unicorn has rainbow midi out ... but you didn't hear it from me

Screen Shot 2020-01-05 at 8.56.58 AM.png (291.26 KiB) Viewed 3406 times

[selig]

I think that's exactly where we are headed. Reason as plugin will soon be handed out for free. IMHO Reason 11 is a dry run for this, and clever way to get people to pay to be beta testers.

I don't think you understand what beta testers are/do. What you may be meaning to describe is "market research", such as they did with the "pay what you want" feature a few versions back. A company that doesn't understand their market is not going to be around for long, so I count that as a smart business move. We want them to be around for a long time, right?

[selig]

I suggested this very thing in another "forum", that props should have released a free RE Player Rack with Reason 11, or bundled when someone purchase a RE. It could be compared, in some ways, to the free Reaktor player which is needed for plugins like NI Razor or Monark.

And you know I too supported this idea, but others have mentioned possible workarounds by creating new accounts every 30 days. Not being into that approach myself I haven't tested it to see how much work is involved, but it may be one reason it was not considered in the first place.

From my perspective as a developer, it would allow folks to use my plugins in any DAW without me porting to VST/AU etc. Some suggested $99 (for Reason Intro) was not much to pay for the privilege of using my plugins, but I totally disagree, as I don't feel my products should "hide" behind a paywall of any sort other than the initial cost, which should be the same for every user IMO. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is another case of me "not holding my breath"!

[joeyluck]

I suggested this very thing in another "forum", that props should have released a free RE Player Rack with Reason 11, or bundled when someone purchase a RE. It could be compared, in some ways, to the free Reaktor player which is needed for plugins like NI Razor or Monark.

And you know I too supported this idea, but others have mentioned possible workarounds by creating new accounts every 30 days. Not being into that approach myself I haven't tested it to see how much work is involved, but it may be one reason it was not considered in the first place.

From my perspective as a developer, it would allow folks to use my plugins in any DAW without me porting to VST/AU etc. Some suggested $99 (for Reason Intro) was not much to pay for the privilege of using my plugins, but I totally disagree, as I don't feel my products should "hide" behind a paywall of any sort other than the initial cost, which should be the same for every user IMO. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is another case of me "not holding my breath"!

Yeah dat me lol. But I'm not against a free, empty rack, I just think $99 is very reasonable.

I have an ongoing frustration with Kontakt. I only use the free Kontakt Player and own several commercial libraries that run inside the Player version. In those instances, the developers have paid extra; $1000 encoding fee and purchasing serial licenses in bulk to then sell. I think it costs a dev something like $2500 if they want to release a free product for Kontakt Player... All that to make it available to customers like me to use in Kontakt Player.

Or I as a customer can buy Kontakt full version for the privilege of using commercial libraries that are not compatible with Kontakt Player (because the dev doesn't want to pay the fee). Kontakt is $399, or for someone like me who owns a few libraries, it is $249. And it comes with pretty much nothing...the content is meager and dated. You get the ability to create and edit libraries, if that's what you want to do. But as a simple customer of libraries, it's just an upfront cost to use libraries.

So my only point in the end is not one against a free empty Rack, because I would love people to make the same arguments to NI, because the whole Kontakt scheme is unattractive. But I'm sure it's great for their wallets. But my point is to not get discouraged suggesting Reason Intro for $99 as a selling point. In the grand scheme of things, compared to other software, you get so much more with Reason Intro's included devices; which compliment third party REs and the use of routing.

As a dev you don't have to pay a huge $1000 fee for customers to be able use your products in the rack, you don't have to pay to purchase licenses up front to then sell, and suggesting Reason Intro for $99 is ok. Someone telling me I need to buy Kontakt full for 4x as much, which comes with mostly nothing, just to use their products—that's lame. This is not. And I think if you go in with a more positive attitude towards the idea of Reason Intro for $99 (shoot the Europa VST had cost more by itself...and now a customer can use it in the Rack Plugin when purchasing Intro, and that's just scratching the surface with what Intro customers get) it will be an easier sale to make, I think.

But again, not against the idea of a free, empty rack. I just don't think $99 for Intro is a tough sale, unless you make it one. And I'd much rather my friends have the included devices for a really great price.

[gullum]

From my perspective as a developer, it would allow folks to use my plugins in any DAW without me porting to VST/AU etc. Some suggested $99 (for Reason Intro) was not much to pay for the privilege of using my plugins, but I totally disagree, as I don't feel my products should "hide" behind a paywall of any sort other than the initial cost, which should be the same for every user IMO. I guess we'll have to wait and see, but this is another case of me "not holding my breath"!

well we all other "famous all loved word "LOYAL") reason users needed to invest in Reason before we can use any RE, so we too are behind a paywall. But yes with the plug in being free it would benefit the RE developers and of cause the Plug in is in some way striped from what makes Reason Reason

[Rackman]

I think that's exactly where we are headed. Reason as plugin will soon be handed out for free. IMHO Reason 11 is a dry run for this, and clever way to get people to pay to be beta testers.

I don't think you understand what beta testers are/do. What you may be meaning to describe is "market research", such as they did with the "pay what you want" feature a few versions back. A company that doesn't understand their market is not going to be around for long, so I count that as a smart business move. We want them to be around for a long time, right?

Fwiw I understand exactly what beta testers are. They use a product before it is ready to go to market as a means of uncovering bugs and deficiencies. If my guess is true, that is exactly what everyone who has paid for R11 and is using the plugin is doing, along with a bit of market research as to which features are missing, as you point out. Propellerhead have form for this approach, in terms of releasing buggy and half-baked features. Just look at VST support. So it is no stretch to imagine them pushing out an unfinished feature for testing in the form of a paid-for upgrade.

Anyway I guess only time will tell if this is what they are up to. At this point th y seem focussed on monetising what they already have in place rather than add anything new, so it makes sense to me.