Future purchase: RE or VST equivalent.

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EpiGenetik
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Post 30 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
30 Dec 2019
The truth hurts, suckas!
Must be why you are avoiding it at all costs 😂

chaosroyale
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Post 30 Dec 2019

Hey everyone, I hope you all had a good 2019, enjoy your new years eve, and have a very happy new year.

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Boombastix
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Post 30 Dec 2019

I have to admit that I started to think RE vs VST some time ago, and more so after I purchased Cubase Pro for $150 in that cross grade sale and due to the lack of VST midi out. What's the point in buying REs if I cannot use them in Cubase too? Most VSTs I can use in Reason, (except VST3 only and midi out VSTs). But with the Rack Plugin this is now a moot point since I can upgrade to v11 anytime and use REs in my Cubase. And in Cubase I can use my VST midi tools as well, which I try to use in Reason with a 3rd party plugin host, but it is cumbersome.

So then the question is, why did I not buy any single RE during this BF/Christmas sale. Simply, I have what I need, enough monster synths, EQs, compressors, FX. I spent money on some orchestra stuff and a guitar VST that has no equivalent in RE, and also some mastering that has no equivalent. I also purchased Midi tools that speeds up SONG CREATION. None of which exists as REs.

The RS random Player and RS Sequencer did not do it for me, either too static or just random 'nonsense', that is not what a session player puts out. As an example EZKeys is way more inspiring than that. EZKeys can spark an idea that you run with and 'massage' until you are happy, but it sets off that initial creative flow. Hit a random button and wade through nonsense stuff kills the creative flow, and by the way I can do just that in Transfuser2 too, and there is a random in the Drum Player, also Kompulsion. But again the random results are pretty useless and I have only made it work on percussion, but not really worth the time it takes to get something useful.

The Gorlilla SDK, if marketed well, can potentially generate developer interest. But so far little marketing effort seems to be done by Ujam or RS, unless it is done 'undercover'. I agree it will still be important for RS to attract developers to make REs, but it seems little effort is done to attract. And one can see complaints that the SDK is too restrictive. 3rd party development is key, we all know what happened to Palm OS and Windows Mobile OS...

[b]Anyhow, my perspective is anything that helps collaboration, song writing, arrangement, version mgt are tools I will continue to invest in. The next big synth, no I do not need it.[/b]

So it then boils down to: Sequencer midi tool updates, automation tools, arrangement tools, patch browser (but also audio loop browser, midi loop browser with key/tempo sync). You see, this is all about WORK FLOW and speed and ease. They way the Reason sequencer jumps around when you get in/out of edit windows drives my nuts. It is like there is some 'un-intelligent' function in the background trying to screw you over. For me it is all about SONG CREATION TOOLS. I cannot even get a workable punch-in of midi if I want to play a new 4 bar section in a song.

Does Reason think we should just loop the 4 bars over and over for 3min? Stuff like this tells me they do not use Reason enough themselves and they do not look at someone who tries finish songs. I also cannot comp midi, I want my 3rd take cause it is usually the best, and often way faster than using a midi player thingy that you have to sit and edit.

The Dr Octorex was probably state of art when it came out, but now that small interface is annoying and I cannot move the markers, I cannot select one section and play on my keyboard. Set it to play a section over one or two octaves and the other sections just as normal. Pitch/chord detection of each segment and auto-mapping to key. WOW! zPlane stretch, etc... Imaging if they took Dr Octorex, made it large, and took the best parts from Serato Sample and others loop players and just made it awesome. That that would be a useful tool as well. Formant shifting, polyphonic editing so I can change a minor to a major, there is so much. Pretty much every loop pack comes with REX loops, such a huge potential to tap into, but nothing new so far.

I honestly have rarely touched the Reason stock patch library, it soo slow and wonky to use and looses focus ALL THE TIME. Guess that's why I was all smiles when I tried the new Korg Triton browser. Select 'type' - 'bass'. Use my keyboard arrows and skip from one to the next, and it loaded up in like 0.1 sec. (Yep, that fast - it's crazy) And that browser was graphical and I could fill my whole screen while doing so, not tiny stuff you hardly can find in the UI, Triton UI browser was BIG and FAST.

So, I have said what I want, and my money is waiting.
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Loque
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Post 30 Dec 2019

Boombastix wrote:
30 Dec 2019
I have to admit that I started to think RE vs VST some time ago, and more so after I purchased Cubase Pro for $150 in that cross grade sale and due to the lack of VST midi out. What's the point in buying REs if I cannot use them in Cubase too? Most VSTs I can use in Reason, (except VST3 only and midi out VSTs). But with the Rack Plugin this is now a moot point since I can upgrade to v11 anytime and use REs in my Cubase. And in Cubase I can use my VST midi tools as well, which I try to use in Reason with a 3rd party plugin host, but it is cumbersome.

So then the question is, why did I not buy any single RE during this BF/Christmas sale. Simply, I have what I need, enough monster synths, EQs, compressors, FX. I spent money on some orchestra stuff and a guitar VST that has no equivalent in RE, and also some mastering that has no equivalent. I also purchased Midi tools that speeds up SONG CREATION. None of which exists as REs.

The RS random Player and RS Sequencer did not do it for me, either too static or just random 'nonsense', that is not what a session player puts out. As an example EZKeys is way more inspiring than that. EZKeys can spark an idea that you run with and 'massage' until you are happy, but it sets off that initial creative flow. Hit a random button and wade through nonsense stuff kills the creative flow, and by the way I can do just that in Transfuser2 too, and there is a random in the Drum Player, also Kompulsion. But again the random results are pretty useless and I have only made it work on percussion, but not really worth the time it takes to get something useful.

The Gorlilla SDK, if marketed well, can potentially generate developer interest. But so far little marketing effort seems to be done by Ujam or RS, unless it is done 'undercover'. I agree it will still be important for RS to attract developers to make REs, but it seems little effort is done to attract. And one can see complaints that the SDK is too restrictive. 3rd party development is key, we all know what happened to Palm OS and Windows Mobile OS...

[b]Anyhow, my perspective is anything that helps collaboration, song writing, arrangement, version mgt are tools I will continue to invest in. The next big synth, no I do not need it.[/b]

So it then boils down to: Sequencer midi tool updates, automation tools, arrangement tools, patch browser (but also audio loop browser, midi loop browser with key/tempo sync). You see, this is all about WORK FLOW and speed and ease. They way the Reason sequencer jumps around when you get in/out of edit windows drives my nuts. It is like there is some 'un-intelligent' function in the background trying to screw you over. For me it is all about SONG CREATION TOOLS. I cannot even get a workable punch-in of midi if I want to play a new 4 bar section in a song.

Does Reason think we should just loop the 4 bars over and over for 3min? Stuff like this tells me they do not use Reason enough themselves and they do not look at someone who tries finish songs. I also cannot comp midi, I want my 3rd take cause it is usually the best, and often way faster than using a midi player thingy that you have to sit and edit.

The Dr Octorex was probably state of art when it came out, but now that small interface is annoying and I cannot move the markers, I cannot select one section and play on my keyboard. Set it to play a section over one or two octaves and the other sections just as normal. Pitch/chord detection of each segment and auto-mapping to key. WOW! zPlane stretch, etc... Imaging if they took Dr Octorex, made it large, and took the best parts from Serato Sample and others loop players and just made it awesome. That that would be a useful tool as well. Formant shifting, polyphonic editing so I can change a minor to a major, there is so much. Pretty much every loop pack comes with REX loops, such a huge potential to tap into, but nothing new so far.

I honestly have rarely touched the Reason stock patch library, it soo slow and wonky to use and looses focus ALL THE TIME. Guess that's why I was all smiles when I tried the new Korg Triton browser. Select 'type' - 'bass'. Use my keyboard arrows and skip from one to the next, and it loaded up in like 0.1 sec. (Yep, that fast - it's crazy) And that browser was graphical and I could fill my whole screen while doing so, not tiny stuff you hardly can find in the UI, Triton UI browser was BIG and FAST.

So, I have said what I want, and my money is waiting.
Well, yes, i am kinda in the same boat (not Cubase, i hate it :-P). I have enuf tools to make great sounds and experiment for trillion years. But the Reason sequencer...man...when i edit a clip, leave the editor and WHOOP! I am somewhere else in a random position. I use Reason now since, hmm...years, and never understood this logic, its just random. Or try to resize a clip with this little clunky icons. Or how the f*ck i get the controller automation out of the MIDI clip? I mean, wtf? So many little things...really enoying and could be so easy to fix. The rack is great, except its a bit unsharp and small sometimes, but after making my sounds i stumble over the little anyoing things in the sequencer - just sometimes...but enuf to get me out of the flow. Or why the f*** i cannot record automation of the just selected device in the rack, why i need to go to the sequencer and "arm" it? Same for the patches and browsing - i love the new browser from Arturia with categories and tags! Just like in Loopcloud, but without anoying comercial sh!t which want me to buy crap. I type what i want and there it is. If i want to browse to an FX in the pop up menu, i would take around 10-20 seconds just for scrolling down - really?

This was where Live shined when i tried it yerars back....sigh... Defenetly i do not need more synths, samples, fx or whatever, just quicker and less cumbersome working. Keep the flow when i am in the flow!
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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Crumbfort
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Post 30 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
30 Dec 2019
The truth hurts, suckas!
Ya Boring 02.gif
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Mint
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Post 30 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or why the f*** i cannot record automation of the just selected device in the rack, why i need to go to the sequencer and "arm" it?
You dont mate. Just click the grey arrow/tag (top left) of whatever device you want to arm. It also creates a sequencer track, if the device doesn't already have one...handy :cool:
Screen Shot 2019-12-31 at 3.53.03 am.png
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Last edited by Mint on 30 Dec 2019, edited 1 time in total.

aeox
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Post 30 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or how the f*ck i get the controller automation out of the MIDI clip? I mean, wtf?
Copy and paste works :thumbs_up:

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BradfordMoeller
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Post 30 Dec 2019

I still prefer purchasing RE's as Reason is my only DAW (for now). I only venture to VST if I feel its necessary, and there are many VSTs that I'd buy if they were in RE format- many by Softube for example, but am holding off because they're less aesthetically pleasing, and not as fast to use with my predominantly RE filled rack!
:reason:)))

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Loque
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Post 31 Dec 2019

Mint wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or why the f*** i cannot record automation of the just selected device in the rack, why i need to go to the sequencer and "arm" it?
You dont mate. Just click the grey arrow/tag (top left) of whatever device you want to arm. It also creates a sequencer track, if the device doesn't already have one...handy :cool:
Screen Shot 2019-12-31 at 3.53.03 am.png
Didn't worked. Maybe i need to try again.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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Loque
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Post 31 Dec 2019

aeox wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or how the f*ck i get the controller automation out of the MIDI clip? I mean, wtf?
Copy and paste works :thumbs_up:
AFAIR its position dependent. I would prefere a "extract to new lane".
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

Popey
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Joined: 04 Jul 2018

Post 31 Dec 2019

For me new purchases are vst now as I now mainly work in another daw (albeit with reason plugin used on most tracks). If I was using solely reason I would 99% of the time always go for a re as they just are so stable in my experience (the 1% vst would be spire as respire workflow is bad compared to vst). In my experience not every vst was fully functional in reason so there is that element to consider as well if just using reason. With regard to re development I assumed the rack vst offered developers a wider potential customer base as now their offerings can be used by reason daw users and other daw users as well (I am aware that this was possible with rewire but rs made the rack vst the main event in 11 and marketed it more so others may be more aware and likely to visit the rs shop).

Yonatan
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Post 31 Dec 2019

Some samle based devices as Ujam seem to take up more gb as VST than their RE:s.

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WillyOD
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Post 31 Dec 2019

Hurricane, you keep on talking about AVX...

Do you have any hard facts or are you saying just what you've read from somewhere?

What is your expertise in coding, more specifically in Assembly language and CPU extensions such as AVX?
You can do it, put your back into it. Check out my cool website at jopo.bike.

Andy
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Post 31 Dec 2019

I prefer to buy the REs. REs are dead talk reminds me of the "Props are dead" talk years ago.

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QVprod
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Post 31 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
QVprod wrote:
29 Dec 2019
Also, the lack of new RE from 3rd part devs doesn't signify that RE as a product would be abandoned and cease to work. It's not as if Reason Studios doesn't make REs themselves.
This reminds me of why the Sega Saturn ultimately failed (the Dreamcast too come to think of it). Minimal 3rd party support, zero support from the huge developers like EA, Squaresoft, and Namco, and Sega desperately pumping out their own games trying to keep the system alive. Meanwhile the shiny new Sony Playstation was getting all the big publishers on board. Sega's hardware was also harder to develop for, and the early SDKs were basic, resulting in inferior titles when compared to their Playstation counterparts.

Denial ain't just a river in Egypt. The writing is on the wall, fellas.
Not a great comparison. Sega needed 3rd party games in order to compete with other console makers. Let’s also keep in mind that Nintendo has done rather fine up until recently without nearly as much 3rd party games as PlayStation and Xbox. Regardless, RE not doing well with 3rd party developers doesn’t stop Reason from working. Plus quite a few DAWs have their own exclusive plugins for sale. If that’s what Rack Extensions were to turn into, I’m sure Reason Studios would be fine.

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Proboscis
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Andy wrote:
31 Dec 2019
I prefer to buy the REs. REs are dead talk reminds me of the "Props are dead" talk years ago.

Hi Andy, as with you, I'm all for Rack Extensions, but there are some undeniable truths to be faced. Since their inception six or so years ago, there are far less third party developers releasing plugins. Some of the early adopters to the format have more or less stated publicly that they are no longer interested, and others have been very vocal about lack of support from Propellerhead. This doesn't bother me so much since I have plenty of tools to use / learn, and there are plenty of older RE's that are on my wishlist. But as much as it's my preferred plugin format, I would suggest that, while RE's may not yet be dead, we are in the final stages of it's life cycle.

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Proboscis
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or how the f*ck i get the controller automation out of the MIDI clip? I mean, wtf? So many little things...really enoying and could be so easy to fix. The rack is great, except its a bit unsharp and small sometimes, but after making my sounds i stumble over the little anyoing things in the sequencer - just sometimes...but enuf to get me out of the flow. Or why the f*** i cannot record automation of the just selected device in the rack,
This is such a major pain in the ass, and I cannot understand why we can't record automation to it's own lane. I mean, the lane is there ! And some parameters do it, but not others! I'm just trying this on DrRex, the volume records to its own lane, the slot changes record to their own lane, as do 'notes to slot', but the mod & pitch wheels don't (they record automation in the MIDI note lane) ! I have trouble understanding the logic behind the development decisions over the years.

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MrFigg
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Proboscis wrote:
01 Jan 2020
Loque wrote:
30 Dec 2019
Or how the f*ck i get the controller automation out of the MIDI clip? I mean, wtf? So many little things...really enoying and could be so easy to fix. The rack is great, except its a bit unsharp and small sometimes, but after making my sounds i stumble over the little anyoing things in the sequencer - just sometimes...but enuf to get me out of the flow. Or why the f*** i cannot record automation of the just selected device in the rack,
This is such a major pain in the ass, and I cannot understand why we can't record automation to it's own lane. I mean, the lane is there ! And some parameters do it, but not others! I'm just trying this on DrRex, the volume records to its own lane, the slot changes record to their own lane, as do 'notes to slot', but the mod & pitch wheels don't (they record automation in the MIDI note lane) ! I have trouble understanding the logic behind the development decisions over the years.
Yep.
丰2ॐ

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orthodox
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Proboscis wrote:
01 Jan 2020
Andy wrote:
31 Dec 2019
I prefer to buy the REs. REs are dead talk reminds me of the "Props are dead" talk years ago.

Hi Andy, as with you, I'm all for Rack Extensions, but there are some undeniable truths to be faced. Since their inception six or so years ago, there are far less third party developers releasing plugins. Some of the early adopters to the format have more or less stated publicly that they are no longer interested, and others have been very vocal about lack of support from Propellerhead. This doesn't bother me so much since I have plenty of tools to use / learn, and there are plenty of older RE's that are on my wishlist. But as much as it's my preferred plugin format, I would suggest that, while RE's may not yet be dead, we are in the final stages of it's life cycle.
I don't see how you come to this conclusion. REs are the format Props themselves use for extending both the standalone and plugin racks. They have developed RE specs from their internal device protocols and now they have switched to the public RE specs and obsoleted internal devices. Most every DAW has their native device format: Ableton, Protools, Logic. Are you suggesting that the Reason and the Rack Plugin are in the end of their life cycle?
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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Proboscis
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Post 01 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
01 Jan 2020
I don't see how you come to this conclusion. REs are the format Props themselves use for extending both the standalone and plugin racks. They have developed RE specs from their internal device protocols and now they have switched to the public RE specs and obsoleted internal devices. Most every DAW has their native device format: Ableton, Protools, Logic. Are you suggesting that the Reason and the Rack Plugin are in the end of their life cycle?
What of my statement are you responding to? The 'life cycle' only ? Because this is in reference to third party development, as I noted from the outset. And the thread is about RE vs VST, therefore in relation to third party developers, not native developers.

Most of the releases in the past two years will only show a somewhat more favorable number of REs in the store is due to one developer - Turn2On (for example who have released around 20 RE's in a two year time period)

Here are some considerations. When Rack Extension format was introduced by way of a marketing video from Propellerheads, it featured a number of developers in support of the platform. Where are those business that championed Rack Extensions as a bold new move for the future ?

Sugar Bytes: No releases since 2012
Softube: No releases since 2014
Sonic Charge: No releases since 2012
U-He: No releases since 2013
Peff: No releases since 2013
Korg: No releases since 2013
FX Expansion: No releases since 2012

Add to that, U-He have publicly stated that they won't be releasing RE any longer. Synapse have expressed doubts about future RE development. Blamsoft have stated that there are too many limitations in order to continue. Jiggery Pokery has been vocal about his disdain for the format, and lack of support from Propellerhead..

So there are a lot of 'big names' in the RE platform that are gone, or on their way out. I believe that all we will see in the future are developers who specifically enjoy Reason for their own use, and create plugins into the future, and a few that spring to mind are Static Cling (Delta must have been an enormous project, and I will speculate that he'll never recoup the cost of hundreds of development hours he invested), Robotic Bean & Lectric Panda will also likely continue on, but apart from that, well I'm not sure the coming year will see too many RE's from third parties at all. There were 110 release in 2013, the first full year of the format's release. We can start the count for 2020, but will be lucky to see half that number in the store come December.

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orthodox
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Proboscis wrote:
01 Jan 2020
So there are a lot of 'big names' in the RE platform that are gone, or on their way out. I believe that all we will see in the future are developers who specifically enjoy Reason for their own use, and create plugins into the future, and a few that spring to mind are Static Cling (Delta must have been an enormous project, and I will speculate that he'll never recoup the cost of hundreds of development hours he invested), Robotic Bean & Lectric Panda will also likely continue on, but apart from that, well I'm not sure the coming year will see too many RE's from third parties at all. There were 110 release in 2013, the first full year of the format's release. We can start the count for 2020, but will be lucky to see half that number in the store come December.
Now this I can agree with. No big names since the RE market is negligible while the development costs are similar compared to other formats.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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gullum
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Post 01 Jan 2020

Proboscis wrote:
01 Jan 2020
There were 110 release in 2013, the first full year of the format's release. We can start the count for 2020, but will be lucky to see half that number in the store come December.
If we get 50 new RE's this year is not that bad when you think about it
the Shop covers almost everything you need in FX and a new Compressor or EQ might not change much, they are often emulations of a hardware device made in the 60's or 70's, so they are new but not new. Synths are often just reinventing the wheel and hyping it up to get people to buy them when in reality they are only the same with a few other futures
But yes the shop will need new devices if only because new customers will hesitate to buy a device made in 2014 because it looks like it's old.

chaosroyale
Posts: 352
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

Post 01 Jan 2020

Seeing as there are now 2 threads concerning "the future of RE", maybe it would help us all to remember we are broadly talking about 2 different things :

The future of RE as a commercial plugin format for 3rd party developers <- there isn't one, not unless a miracle happens and Reason becomes as popular as Logic.

The future of native, RE-based instruments in Reason <- entirely depends on the success and direction of Reason as a DAW/VST plugin.

And maybe a smaller category of "Reason hobbyist REs" which seems to have dropped off a bit since the heyday, but will probably trickle in as long as Reason continues to exist.

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orthodox
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Post 02 Jan 2020

chaosroyale wrote:
01 Jan 2020
The future of RE as a commercial plugin format for 3rd party developers <- there isn't one, not unless a miracle happens and Reason becomes as popular as Logic.
What do you mean by "commercial"? Generating income enough for a small company to make a living off?
I still wonder if that's possible. I am a developer myself, but my primary income comes from unrelated projects, so I belong to the "hobbyist" group for now.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

Steedus
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Joined: 31 Aug 2015

Post 02 Jan 2020

While I do see the benefit of having something like Synapse's The Legend visible/tweakable in the rack as a RE, it really wouldn't be enough to sway me from getting it over a VST variant. A reasonable price difference could sway me, but not much else. VST's are usually more versatile (in what apps you can use them in), they usually look better (yes as a hobbiest that does pull weight - I'm doing this purely for fun), and you can generally resize them. I think the "small" size of The Legend VST gui is still bigger than the Reason rack version on my screen resolution.

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