Future purchase: RE or VST equivalent.

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MrFigg
Posts: 3740
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 29 Dec 2019

Recent discussions on the forum have made me personally think about in which format I’ll make future purchases. Now I know that the whole Props infrastructure isn’t going to come crashing down leaving a black whole where no one can access their REs. I also know that if something were to happen there would probably be safeguards such as Legacy Servers for users to continue to download licenses. I know all that and I’m not painting the devil on the door as they say in Sweden.
Buuuut...next Kuassa RE, just to take an example. I’m seriously thinking it’ll be a VST.
So anybody else thinking along the same lines.
丰2ॐ

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Oquasec
Posts: 2672
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 29 Dec 2019

Steinberg and propellerhead made their sdks the primary sdk for all plugins.
So ima keep buyin RE and vsts
Ableton/Cubase/FLS/Reason user.

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gullum
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Location: Faroe Islands

Post 29 Dec 2019

I have always been Reason only (Or at least last 10-15 year) so no I'm not thinking it those lines at all.
It's just makes more "Reason" and is easier to REmember Kuassa if it is a RE.

(personal opinion)
I think that VST only make sense if you make synth music. I also think that in 90% of the time you can get same result using only Reason and RE's as you would with some expensive VST and 95% of the time you would not notice the différance in a mix. Maybe 0.0001% of the people listening to your songs could tell the différance

P.S. RE's do work better in reason

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Zac
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Joined: 19 May 2016

Post 29 Dec 2019

For me, if I can get it in both formats I'll get the vst from now on. I prefer the RE authorization because it's easy and I'd prefer more cv options but lately the latter has had little additional benefit on devices released in both formats.

So the vst wins for me because I can use it in other DAWs, updates seem more frequent for VSTs and the RDK allows more flexibility. Also, IMO, vsts will outlive REs. That being said I still won't buy expensive vsts from small companies due to doubts over their longevity. I already can use some REs by defunct developers.

So it's not a big decision but right now I think I'm better off with the vst.

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 29 Dec 2019

Man...do we really need more threads like this? Its the same for all developers: If they go down, they take all with them, if they dont, they dont.

Even if you buy hardware if you want to be sure, its going down at some point. No replacement parts available, not cleaned enough, something broken, no energy or power, wrong cables, skynet, Trump, Putin, ...choose something and you will find a reason why something maybe wont work in future...

My first bought RE ar still working and quite stable. My VSTs, also the bought one, are crashing and i hope the devs will fix it if they are still active. Crash of today: Tantra.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

EdGrip
Posts: 1702
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

Post 29 Dec 2019

For me it depends on the type of device:

CV. Does the RE version (of a specific device, like ABL3, or a generic device like a delay) offer lots of interesting CV (or audio) I/O that I can play with, beyond what's possible with the VST combi programmer? 3rd-party devices which are all about the CV and inter-device modulation are still unique to Reason, and a big part of Reason's ongoing appeal. VK-2 and eXpanse are the pinnacle of those possibilities. It's why there's only limited point in comparing eXpanse to Serum, or even to Europa. When you flip the rack around there's no contest.

Some devices (synths with lots of CV, and CV utilities like PSQ-1684) are not replaceable by a VST equivalent. A RE device like Legend offers CV and audio possibilities that the VST version does not - the value of the VST version is that I can use it outside of Reason.

Another consideration is, how much will I need to tweak this device? If the answer is "not that much once you've got it dialed in", then I don't mind the faff of having to open the VST window from time to time. If the answer is "lots", I'd prefer it to be right there in the rack. (You can always assign a VST's knobs to some CV or combi knobs in the rack, but it's more faff to set up).

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MrFigg
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Post 29 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
29 Dec 2019
Man...do we really need more threads like this?
Woop! Woop! It's the sound of da police.


:)
丰2ॐ

Rackman
Posts: 51
Joined: 28 Dec 2019

Post 29 Dec 2019

Way I see it you'd be crazy to buy an RE when a VST version is also available.

There are the obvious reasons: lock In to one DAW, zero resale value etc, but a big one for me is that most of the REs in the shop have been abandoned by their developers, and most that are not soon will be. Compare that to VSTs that will probably get long term support, updates and new features.

I still buy the occasional player or CV-related RE, but those are Reason/RE-unique. I would never invest in a format like that otherwise. It's a real shame as RE had a tonne of potential, but Propellerhead have pretty much abandoned it other than as a tool for reselling old refills.

chaosroyale
Posts: 352
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

Post 29 Dec 2019

I feel kinda bad, because I was one of the people criticizing the RE environment.

I wouldn't worry about "losing access" to the servers and so on, that's not very likely in the next few years at least. I don't think Reason will just suddenly explode and disappear.

Instead, think about what you need from the device itself. Do you want to be able to see it directly in the rack? does the device have CV inputs that you want to use? Do you care about future updates (VST is much less likely to get abandoned), does the VST offer any features beyond the RE that would be useful for you? in 5 years will you be using Reason or another DAW? etc etc.
MrFigg wrote:
29 Dec 2019
Recent discussions on the forum have made me personally think about in which format I’ll make future purchases. Now I know that the whole Props infrastructure isn’t going to come crashing down leaving a black whole where no one can access their REs. I also know that if something were to happen there would probably be safeguards such as Legacy Servers for users to continue to download licenses. I know all that and I’m not painting the devil on the door as they say in Sweden.
Buuuut...next Kuassa RE, just to take an example. I’m seriously thinking it’ll be a VST.
So anybody else thinking along the same lines.

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MrFigg
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Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 29 Dec 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
29 Dec 2019
I feel kinda bad, because I was one of the people criticizing the RE environment.

I wouldn't worry about "losing access" to the servers and so on, that's not very likely in the next few years at least. I don't think Reason will just suddenly explode and disappear.

Instead, think about what you need from the device itself. Do you want to be able to see it directly in the rack? does the device have CV inputs that you want to use? Do you care about future updates (VST is much less likely to get abandoned), does the VST offer any features beyond the RE that would be useful for you? in 5 years will you be using Reason or another DAW? etc etc.
Yeah. The truth is that it won't disappear any time soon if at all...and if it does then there'll no doubt be something put in place to protect the customers.
Chances of me moving to another DAW, if I'm being honest, are minimal. Chances are that I'll be on 10.4 and happy for the rest of my days.
So yeah...I guess it's all speculation, none of it is imminent or indeed certain and if it does eventually come to iy then we'll all deal with it then :).
Additionally, as it currently stands today, I need never purchase another RE or VST anyway hahaha. (see post on downsizing). So all good. All good.
丰2ॐ

groggy1
Posts: 385
Joined: 10 Jun 2015

Post 29 Dec 2019

MrFigg wrote:
29 Dec 2019
chaosroyale wrote:
29 Dec 2019
I feel kinda bad, because I was one of the people criticizing the RE environment.

I wouldn't worry about "losing access" to the servers and so on, that's not very likely in the next few years at least. I don't think Reason will just suddenly explode and disappear.

Instead, think about what you need from the device itself. Do you want to be able to see it directly in the rack? does the device have CV inputs that you want to use? Do you care about future updates (VST is much less likely to get abandoned), does the VST offer any features beyond the RE that would be useful for you? in 5 years will you be using Reason or another DAW? etc etc.
Yeah. The truth is that it won't disappear any time soon if at all...and if it does then there'll no doubt be something put in place to protect the customers.
Chances of me moving to another DAW, if I'm being honest, are minimal. Chances are that I'll be on 10.4 and happy for the rest of my days.
So yeah...I guess it's all speculation, none of it is imminent or indeed certain and if it does eventually come to iy then we'll all deal with it then :).
Additionally, as it currently stands today, I need never purchase another RE or VST anyway hahaha. (see post on downsizing). So all good. All good.
Your post on downsizing was spot on.

For me, Re is about simplifying your life and going minimal. Vst is about gas and collecting synths I may not need.

I’m happier when I do the former, but don’t always have the strength to avoid gas.

Yonatan
Posts: 1107
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 29 Dec 2019

Even if I am at R10, I have an eye open for what I want with the plugin. I kind of like that they can be used in the Reason Rack Plugin, as a library of plugins in just one VST. So I find some plugins get more value in RE format from version R11. But some other plugs may come better as VST (like Softube or other developers that have more or less left RE). Other question is if the plugin is so expensive that one want to be able to sell it to another later. Also there Softube and the likes come to mind.
But all minor plugs that cost not a fortune, and that can be of good benefit inside the Rack Plugin in combinators, I find better as a RE for now at least.

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hurricane
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Joined: 14 Oct 2017

Post 29 Dec 2019

Why would you invest in Rack Extensions that you can only use in an app with a questionable/shaky future? Reason has a temporary CEO who hasn't even said a thing yet, and a temporary owner who is looking to sell as soon as it gets a good offer. What happens when it gets sold to Apple and they drop windows support? You can revisit your decision after it gets sold off, until then the wiser investment is VST. You have been warned. So when shit goes down, no one better complain.
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music | https://soundcloud.com/hurricaneaudiolab
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

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Loque
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Post 29 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
Why would you invest in Rack Extensions that you can only use in an app with a questionable/shaky future? Reason has a temporary CEO who hasn't even said a thing yet, and a temporary owner who is looking to sell as soon as it gets a good offer. What happens when it gets sold to Apple and they drop windows support? You can revisit your decision after it gets sold off, until then the wiser investment is VST. You have been warned. So when shit goes down, no one better complain.
I guess only you can use a RE in only one App and you know everything about a "temporary" CEO. Btw, which CEO is not "temporary"? Well, it was just a matter of time until you join and start bashing RE. Man...you must really got p!ssed somehow...Maybe you purchased once too much?
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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Timmy Crowne
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Location: California, United States

Post 29 Dec 2019

If the VST and RE are truly equivalent in features, I would get the VST. I would be frustrated if SDK limitations prevented devs from updating the RE, while the VST version continually improved.

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hurricane
Posts: 1125
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Post 29 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
29 Dec 2019
hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
Why would you invest in Rack Extensions that you can only use in an app with a questionable/shaky future? Reason has a temporary CEO who hasn't even said a thing yet, and a temporary owner who is looking to sell as soon as it gets a good offer. What happens when it gets sold to Apple and they drop windows support? You can revisit your decision after it gets sold off, until then the wiser investment is VST. You have been warned. So when shit goes down, no one better complain.
I guess only you can use a RE in only one App and you know everything about a "temporary" CEO. Btw, which CEO is not "temporary"? Well, it was just a matter of time until you join and start bashing RE. Man...you must really got p!ssed somehow...Maybe you purchased once too much?
A little sensitive, aren't we?

What did I say that's false? You can only use REs in Reason. The current CEO is a placeholder CEO. Verdane are in the business of selling off companies. What did I say that's false?
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music | https://soundcloud.com/hurricaneaudiolab
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

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EpiGenetik
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Location: Glasgow, EU

Post 29 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
What did I say that's false?
Perhaps a better question would be about the quantity of your original statement being true.

You are interpreting a set of facts in a negative way, because you obviously desire to do so.

Perhaps you should step away from the internet and take time out to smell the roses.

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gullum
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Location: Faroe Islands

Post 29 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019


What did I say that's false? You can only use REs in Reason. The current CEO is a placeholder CEO. Verdane are in the business of selling off companies. What did I say that's false?
since reason is now also a VST3 plugin that is not true anymore. RE's can be used in all DAW's that suport VST3 or AU

for all you know or might not know the CEO might be there the next 10 years and Verdane are no in it sell but to make a profit so that can be done while still keeping Reason Studios
Last edited by gullum on 29 Dec 2019, edited 1 time in total.

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hurricane
Posts: 1125
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Post 29 Dec 2019

gullum wrote:
29 Dec 2019
hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019


What did I say that's false? You can only use REs in Reason. The current CEO is a placeholder CEO. Verdane are in the business of selling off companies. What did I say that's false?
since reason is now also a VST3 plugin that is not true anymore. RE's can be used in all DAW's that suport VST3 or AU
But you need REASON. You can't use REs in another daw without REASON. Reason disappears and then what are you going to do with your REs???
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music | https://soundcloud.com/hurricaneaudiolab
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

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gullum
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Post 29 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
gullum wrote:
29 Dec 2019


since reason is now also a VST3 plugin that is not true anymore. RE's can be used in all DAW's that suport VST3 or AU
But you need REASON. You can't use REs in another daw without REASON. Reason disappears and then what are you going to do with your REs???
if I die one day what am I going to do with all my stuff, why worry what might happen my car runs on Diesel what am I do to when there is not oil left. Chances are that your beloved VST might not be updated and Windows or Mac make changes to their file system and your VST get incompatible, but the point of this is that all you have is an big IF

And of cause anyone buying a RE would have Reason in the first place

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MrFigg
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Post 29 Dec 2019

What’ll we do if RS cuts VST2 support in Reason 12 just to spite us? VST3 only from here on in.
丰2ॐ

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Loque
Posts: 6805
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 29 Dec 2019

What if RS buys Apple and discontinious Logic? What about if Verdane buys Ableton and integrates Live into Reason? What if...ah...maybe later more...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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hurricane
Posts: 1125
Joined: 14 Oct 2017

Post 29 Dec 2019

But the topic asks if one should get the RE or the VST equivalent. I don't know why any sane person would suggest getting the RE at this moment.
I mean, even Mr. Rob "We'll Keep Creating REs As Long As People Buy Them" Papen stopped making REs. Where is the BIT RE?

REs are DEAD. :clap:
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music | https://soundcloud.com/hurricaneaudiolab
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

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gullum
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Location: Faroe Islands

Post 29 Dec 2019

There is a shop full of RE's and only this month there were added new RE's so I don't see how I can be dead is I still wake up every morning and have to go to work, or maybe I died and went to hell and only am tricked by a demon to think I'm alive

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orthodox
Posts: 1046
Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 29 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
But the topic asks if one should get the RE or the VST equivalent.
OK.
hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
I mean, even Mr. Rob "We'll Keep Creating REs As Long As People Buy Them" Papen stopped making REs. Where is the BIT RE?
And what does this have to do with the topic? Where are equivalent devices?
Many developers have come and gone. It does not prove anything.
hurricane wrote:
29 Dec 2019
REs are DEAD. :clap:
Well, keep believing it if you like the idea.
Never imagine yourself not to be otherwise than what it might appear to others that what you were or might have been was not otherwise than what you had been would have appeared to them to be otherwise. -- L.Carroll

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