Synapse Audio's next synth might skip RE format

[hurricane]

Wavesfactory Spectre. It’s prettier too.

With all due respect to Selig, a band saturating EQ isn’t going to light the RE world on fire. Even if you can hit tab and mess with things on the back - that’s all pretty niche and something for the more hardcore and experimental Reason user, not your typical GarageBand laptop musician, which is who Reason Studios seem to be lusting after nowadays.

[platzangst]

The thing is these most of these small developers aren't creating anything original and creative. A CV utility isn't going to excite the masses. Rack extensions are like obscure indie records and Reason needs Top 40 #1 hits.

I think you're messing up your metaphors here, because it's rare when something in the Top 40 is "original and creative", and when it does happen, once in a blue moon, all the other songs hitting the charts start trying to sound like that. "The masses" don't get excited by anything actually innovative or original, which is why the actual original and creative music languishes as "obscure indie" albums. Stray too far out of standard pop/rock formulas and you get ignored.

Which is not to say you don't have a point about small developers not coming up with highly unique things, but of all the comparisons you could have made, I think this one is not particularly apt. "Popular" does not always translate to "creative".

[hurricane]

I meant since RE developers AREN'T putting out anything original and creative (just a bunch of standard EQs, filters, compressors, CV utilities, it seems), they're just shooting themselves in the foot. I was equating Top 40 #1 hits to VSTs, specifically the uber popular ones. I'd really like to use Cthuhlu in Reason. But I can't. I'd really like to use OPXPRO II, Halion, and Padshop Pro in Reason without a wrapper. I'd like to use Kontakt multitimbrally. Then there's the whole VST sidechaining limitation. Mac users also can't use any of the Roland instruments inside Reason.

[selig]

Wavesfactory Spectre. It’s prettier too.

With all due respect to Selig, a band saturating EQ isn’t going to light the RE world on fire. Even if you can hit tab and mess with things on the back - that’s all pretty niche and something for the more hardcore and experimental Reason user, not your typical GarageBand laptop musician, which is who Reason Studios seem to be lusting after nowadays.

TBH, I don't actually often use ColoringEQ that way myself since there are SO many basic things it can do without any "creative" patching/routing. At least that how "I" see it, but "color" me biased…

You wanted "creative", then say creative REs like ColoringEQ (which does different/more things than Spectre) aren't going to light the world on fire. You say you want "top 40" type devices, which seems the opposite of creative.
Maybe you could clarify what you mean?
My goal isn't to copy what's out there (which I assume means "creative"?), my goal isn't to re-create what's already available in the Reason rack, my goal is to be creative - even if it doesn't set the world on fire.
I'd love a "top 40 hit", but am totally happy with "indy" products if that's how they are received. Again, I'm trying to fill gaps, not reinvent the wheel. At the same time, I'm always listening to feedback and user ideas, so hit me!

[platzangst]

I meant since RE developers AREN'T putting out anything original and creative (just a bunch of standard EQs, filters, compressors, CV utilities, it seems), they're just shooting themselves in the foot. I was equating Top 40 #1 hits to VSTs, specifically the uber popular ones. I'd really like to use Cthuhlu in Reason. But I can't. I'd really like to use OPXPRO II, Halion, and Padshop Pro in Reason without a wrapper. I'd like to use Kontakt multitimbrally. Then there's the whole VST sidechaining limitation. Mac users also can't use any of the Roland instruments inside Reason.

I guess it's a matter of perspective: It occurs to me that the Robotic Bean (EDIT: It also later occurs to me that I actually meant to say Lectric Panda here, though Robotic Bean isn't bad) devices have been pretty unique, but they can be very experimental in nature. And on the other side of things, if Synapse is coming out with an Oberheim emulator, it may be a great emulation, but I'd say that's the complete opposite of original, deliberately copying things that have come before. And I have no doubt it will sell well, because that seems to be a high-demand thing in virtual instruments these days, to recreate old analog synths and other classic gear so that one can sound like they're using sounds from the 70s and 80s. There's plenty of soundbanks and Kontakt instruments that are built to achieve sounds that have already been made popular, as opposed to achieving a unique style.

What you seem to be driving at is that you feel RE developers ought to be trying to produce REs that will be super-popular and will sell well, some kind of "killer app". Well, that's a magic formula that may or may not have anything to do with creativity. Look at how many EQs, filters and compressors Waves puts out compared to how many VSTs it has that are truly original and creative, and yet for ages Waves had this kind of aura of "anyone who's trying to be a pro just HAS to get all the Waves stuff". Arturia has just come out with Pigments 2.0, which is in the minority compared to all its classic gear emulations. I don't know which sells better.

But furthermore, your complaint above seems to be more a limitation of Reason's VST implementation, or specifically that it's not compatible with VST3, than it is about developers. You want to use Halion and Padshop Pro, but a lot of those features are duplicated in other plugins - granular and wavetable synthesis is even included in stock Reason devices! I don't know what you think an RE developer could do about any of that.

[eXode]

So the widely spread of Rack plugin will not gain RE sales?

I would say that people getting the rack plugin are interested in Reason, not REs.

[eXode]

More like shrinking/dying pains to be honest ...

I'm shocked. The potential market should be growing. Reason 11 was meant to lure new users into the ecosystem, particularly from those using a different primary DAW but wanting to run Reason as a plugin. There was an enthusiastic reception at KVR and other sites.

I think that was mostly wishful thinking. That new Reason users are enthusiastic about the plugin does not equal interest in REs, sadly. Perhaps it will change, but I'm not holding my breath.

[eXode]

And at the other side of the coin, and this is my own personal reflection, propellerheads/reason studios have done very little for the RE developers through the years. To be frank everything they've done has been in their own interest. They may have said one thing but their actions has shown something else. It seems nothing, or very little of what they have done has been in the interest of third party developers.

For a more recent example, they stated they developed the RE platform for developers to join in creating more so that they could focus on the core product, but with Reason 10 they did a pure content update that competed directly with RE developers.

And some of you (including propellerheads/reason studios) might say that there will always be competition. That is true, but there's a big difference between releasing competing products as REs, and releasing competing products as factory devices within a version upgrade. A third party developer simply cannot compete with that.

But sure, developers have a blame as well. Many developers came from the Reason community and have been naively loyal, to be frank. Perhaps there should have been more pressure on propellerheads from the developers as well. I think it's too late now anyway.

Instead of getting bitter, I've simply just lowered my expectations so that I will not get disappointed.

But it is a little sad, I have some cool ideas that likely won't see the light of day, at least not as REs...

[jlgrimes]

And at the other side of the coin, and this is my own personal reflection, propellerheads/reason studios have done very little for the RE developers through the years. To be frank everything they've done has been in their own interest. They may have said one thing but their actions has shown something else. It seems nothing, or very little of what they have done has been in the interest of third party developers.

For a more recent example, they stated they developed the RE platform for developers to join in creating more so that they could focus on the core product, but with Reason 10 they did a pure content update that competed directly with RE developers.

And some of you (including propellerheads/reason studios) might say that there will always be competition. That is true, but there's a big difference between releasing competing products as REs, and releasing competing products as factory devices within a version upgrade. A third party developer simply cannot compete with that.

But sure, developers have a blame as well. Many developers came from the Reason community and have been naively loyal, to be frank. Perhaps there should have been more pressure on propellerheads from the developers as well. I think it's too late now anyway.

Instead of getting bitter, I've simply just lowered my expectations so that I will not get disappointed.

But it is a little sad, I have some cool ideas that likely won't see the light of day, at least not as REs...

I agree,

The last two versions of Reason has been headscratchers.

Version 10, with Europa and Grain, while fine synths came in direct competition with other REs. I knew Reason needed to step up their synth game but it might have been more beneficial reaching out to some of the talented RE developers and work on a Reason synth while Props could focus on workflow improvements. I think more people would have been happy at the end (and both Props and RE developers probably would have learned some things at the end). Props did collaborate with a Sample Library producer but those REs just felt pretty cheap like a last minute thing thrown in (even though the sample libraries are pretty good).

Version 11, while Reason did add a good bit of workflow improvements, its main promoted feature was being able to be used as a VST plug-in. One one side of the coin it probably could help open up the RE market to a wider userbase but on the other end it gave people an impression of Reason wanting to be a plug-in and not a DAW. Probably wouldn't give a RE developer who was wanting to make a living doing RE devices a warm fuzzy.

We basically had two versions of Reason with heavy focus on devices with minimal workflow improvements.

I'm wondering too if some of the RE developers gripes might stem from limitations in the graphics area of Reason (which they would need to improve on).

I kind of understand that some developers would want to focus on VSTs.


The only way to get these developers back is for Reason to corner a big share of the DAW market either for Audio Recording, Mixing, Midi Sequencing, Live performance, which mainly amounts to core improvments to the core base of the software to attract more users. With a big enough user base many developers would happily invest their resources if they knew a wide potential marketbase was there.


Reason is kind of all over the place though (more so than any DAW I think). It is a plug-in that has its own plug-in format, which is a DAW that makes refills (that aren't really promoted anymore), that has its own protocols, loop formats.

I think the biggest issue with Reason is neglecting its core basic DAW/Midi functionality, (and probably not enough features per major upgrade cycle). Reason 12 needs to make alot of folks happy (although Props does pretty decent minor releases, major ones are some of the most polarizing I've seen for any DAW. This most likely mean there are unhappy users. Sure there are upset users with any DAW major release but how often do you see them make YouTube videos of their disdain?.

[EdGrip]

When Reason 10 came out, Reason DID need to up their stock instruments game, and it made sense to do a content release to keep Reason the electronic music value proposition that it is.

But, Europa/eXpanse did feel like an almost personal kick in the teeth to one of the very best dev teams on the platform. I don't know what they should have done instead, but it's no way to win friends and keep the format alive.

[chaosroyale]

Nah, Selig's saturating EQ is objectively much more powerful than Spectre and can be used as a really good standard EQ too, not just an exciter. You are correct that the Spectre GUI is much nicer though. If Selig could make a more clean and stylish UI then I think it really would be worth publishing as a VST.

Anyway, my point is "character EQ" is a fairly major category, and Selig's is one of the best, but will not achieve the recognition it deserves because it is an RE instead of a VST.

Wavesfactory Spectre. It’s prettier too.

With all due respect to Selig, a band saturating EQ isn’t going to light the RE world on fire. Even if you can hit tab and mess with things on the back - that’s all pretty niche and something for the more hardcore and experimental Reason user, not your typical GarageBand laptop musician, which is who Reason Studios seem to be lusting after nowadays.

[Rason]

So if RE format 'dies'... which I dont want... what do you think the death is going to look like? I've already spent some money on these devices and I am probably covered on all types of synthesis, effects and tools. I dont neccesarilly need to see anything new in the shop. But I want to be able to keep my REs and use them. Does anybody think RS could just cutt it off, close the shop and remove the RE format entirely? They originally promised the backwards compatibility for ever, but the ownership and ceo has changed in the meantime.

[platzangst]

So if RE format 'dies'... which I dont want... what do you think the death is going to look like? I've already spent some money on these devices and I am probably covered on all types of synthesis, effects and tools. I dont neccesarilly need to see anything new in the shop. But I want to be able to keep my REs and use them. Does anybody think RS could just cutt it off, close the shop and remove the RE format entirely? They originally promised the backwards compatibility for ever, but the ownership and ceo has changed in the meantime.

Well, in theory, they could do damn near anything, from the best to the worst. But worrying about something like this is, I think, just unneeded stress.

I have REs on my system that are no longer available in the store for one reason or another, but they still work for me. The only question is whether at some future date I have to change computers and those REs are unable to be downloaded from the servers. That hasn't happened yet, and I have no particular reason at the moment to think RS won't continue to honor all of my RE licenses. But anything might happen - if Reason Studios went entirely bankrupt and closed everything down forever, for example, well, I'd have to consider my moves carefully before altering my installation in any way.

Realistically, though, I think it'd be a massive PR bomb to stop keeping old REs active, and I imagine Reason Studios would be sold off to another company if things were really financially catastrophic, so I expect everything to stay much as it is for a while.

[selig]

But it is a little sad, I have some cool ideas that likely won't see the light of day, at least not as REs...

Having been privy to some of your ideas, I can indeed confirm they are indeed cool and it's a shame if we never get to see them… ;(

[Loque]

But it is a little sad, I have some cool ideas that likely won't see the light of day, at least not as REs...

Having been privy to some of your ideas, I can indeed confirm they are indeed cool and it's a shame if we never get to see them… ;(

If RS doesnt want it, i want it, even as a VST. I wont expect RS listen to their top notch RE and sound devs, so go and release it as VST and maybe in 10 years you can re-release it as a RE if possible. Dont let us wait.

[chaosroyale]

"Backwards compatibility" is an empty excuse for the lack of updates. In reality backwards compatibility was already broken when they removed Line 6 and broken again when they removed REwire.

Anyway, as far as "what happens" when RE dies; you move on. This is one of the reasons I no longer buy instruments and effects as REs, and I have been gradually migrating all of my instruments over to VST. If/when the Reason environment becomes stagnant I won't be stuck with all my sounds on an unusable format.

I still use REs for CV/routing stuff to make the Reason Rack more powerful, but even my lovely PMS-20 filter and eXpanse have been mothballed, and have been replaced with VST equivalents. As for "standard" effects like Delays, Reverbs and Compressors, there are so many cheap or free VSTs that are as good or better than the equivalent RE, it's really not a problem to upgrade. You can also get "crossgrade" deals on some REs to get the VST versions.

I think "Mr Overdrive" is the last RE I still use all the time because it is just so simple and good. If anyone knows a replacement, let me know! (*Saturn, surprisingly, wasn't able to recreate it)

So if RE format 'dies'... which I dont want... what do you think the death is going to look like? I've already spent some money on these devices and I am probably covered on all types of synthesis, effects and tools. I dont neccesarilly need to see anything new in the shop. But I want to be able to keep my REs and use them. Does anybody think RS could just cutt it off, close the shop and remove the RE format entirely? They originally promised the backwards compatibility for ever, but the ownership and ceo has changed in the meantime.

[selig]

Nah, Selig's saturating EQ is objectively much more powerful than Spectre and can be used as a really good standard EQ too, not just an exciter. You are correct that the Spectre GUI is much nicer though. If Selig could make a more clean and stylish UI then I think it really would be worth publishing as a VST.

The problem is that with the original, I couldn't create a more streamlined GUI. I had to have controls for all parameters, which I prefer over simple numeric values that look like a spreadsheet (like Spectre).

Now that the SDK is updated, I COULD get rid of the sliders, but still not sure I would want the "spreadsheet" look. I think the problem with my device is the complexity, or the fact it's really an EQ with added features. So it's as complex as an EQ, but then you also have to add all the controls for saturation.

Always eager to hear suggestions on how to improve things, however a great SOUNDING device was my first goal. Now that the SDK is updated, I'm open to suggestions as to how to make it "prettier", since I DO value that quality.

[chaosroyale]

I hate flat/spreadsheet style GUIs like Live and so on, but the problem with coloring EQs GUI is not the skeuomorphism, it's more the combination of slightly lo-fi colors and textures, the way everything is crammed in, the small size of the spectrum window, the lack of proper shading/aliasing on things like the spectrum and text, etc. I realize most of these issues were limitations of the SDK at the time.

I would seriously advocate for removing the sliders and using the saved space to expand the spectrum window and encourage users to directly manipulate all the EQ bands, as with fabfilter pro-Q. It is so much faster.

Unfortunately for me, no matter how great a device it is, until it becomes a VST the chances of me buying it are getting smaller and smaller. Unless Reason Studios get their act together with regards to the core DAW.

Nah, Selig's saturating EQ is objectively much more powerful than Spectre and can be used as a really good standard EQ too, not just an exciter. You are correct that the Spectre GUI is much nicer though. If Selig could make a more clean and stylish UI then I think it really would be worth publishing as a VST.

The problem is that with the original, I couldn't create a more streamlined GUI. I had to have controls for all parameters, which I prefer over simple numeric values that look like a spreadsheet (like Spectre).

Now that the SDK is updated, I COULD get rid of the sliders, but still not sure I would want the "spreadsheet" look. I think the problem with my device is the complexity, or the fact it's really an EQ with added features. So it's as complex as an EQ, but then you also have to add all the controls for saturation.

Always eager to hear suggestions on how to improve things, however a great SOUNDING device was my first goal. Now that the SDK is updated, I'm open to suggestions as to how to make it "prettier", since I DO value that quality.

[stp2015]

I have the feeling that even if the RE market dies down completely, I have most of what I need to be a happy musician. But, of course, as new VSTs come out that might change. At this point, the only VST I regularly use is Duda's multi band compressor. Cannot manage to get a good EDM sound without it.

Also, even if I am happy right now, I will buy new good REs. That is my promise to Synapse.

[SebAudio]

Reason VST plugin can be a way to have RE sales and so attract some new devs or already there devs. But I think it won’t happen until hi-res graphics are there. Atm rack modules look tiny pixelated « old » : they miss appeal compared to vst.

[chaosroyale]

This is never going to happen, and it is easy to understand why.

If you are a developer, you make your device as the most popular format (VST), so that nearly everyone can use your device.

Anybody with a DAW that can run the Reason VST can also run your VST with or without Reason. Anyone who wants to use Reason plug-in AND your VST, can do that too (most DAWs have massively improved their routeing in the last few versions, so you can combine various different plugins rather like a combinator). So, no RE version is necessary.

You could spend more time and money developing an RE, for the tiny number of Reason-only users who refuse to use VSTs. But this will reduce your profits. So you won't do it.

Reality check: In future, and in fact right now, the only people developing RE's will be "Reason hobbyists" doing it for fun, and a few low-effort shovelware devs making the easiest plugins they can get away with, (you know who you are).

RE is a dead format.

Reason VST plugin can be a way to have RE sales and so attract some new devs or already there devs

[Jackjackdaw]

I dont think RE is a dead format. It's like Ableton has M4L plugins, Halion has third party content etc. No one is expecting people to solely use those products but you can if you want.

[Yonatan]

A bit sad of a reading about the RE format in here, especially when it comes from good developers. Hope RS really get their sh*t together when it comes to some aspects. It is like they left out the golden eggs they already have in the basket, in a wishful lust for the impersonal mass market of music users. Why discard the good they have in that quest. Why not do both? Reputation is a precious thing in these smaller fields. That mass audience is as loyal as the wind at the middle of the ocean. By all means go get in more users, but stay strong and firm by the side of the long time users and developers. They need to be taken good care of, otherwise the ship will sooner or later crumble.

[Jmax]

Now that we have the Rack Plugin, I find myself using all of Reason's synths and stock devices in Studio One 3. The sequencer is just so much better in Studio 1, it's hard to work in Reason quite the same way.
However, Reason's Re effects and synths are just so damn good.
I believe a huge sequencer improvement will come in Reason probably for the next version. Until then we have the rack plugin.
I'll always continue to buy Re's. Not that I need any more? We have sooooo many great synths in Reason and also FX a plenty.
I'm saddened to hear about The props treatment of the Developers. As they're really what brought Reason to the next level in terms of synths and FX.

[VariableX]

Would be really nice if they made it a RE. Considering how much I love Synapse stuff I'd most likely buy the RE if they made it. But if it's only VST then I'll skip. I just really dislike all the floating windows and also I hate to create extra accounts for different companies.

yep, same here. exactly this.