Synapse Audio's next synth might skip RE format

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

Post 20 Dec 2019

m.arthur wrote:
20 Dec 2019
This is neither surprising nor problematic. Reason can run VSTs now. We don't need the new Synapse synth as an RE.

Did you complain when Dune 3 was announced and wasn't available as an RE? Dune 2? That's their flagship synth, and it's not an RE.
Oh yes, a lot of ppl complained about it, or to be more prices they wished for a RE version.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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hurricane
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Post 20 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
20 Dec 2019
m.arthur wrote:
20 Dec 2019
This is neither surprising nor problematic. Reason can run VSTs now. We don't need the new Synapse synth as an RE.

Did you complain when Dune 3 was announced and wasn't available as an RE? Dune 2? That's their flagship synth, and it's not an RE.
Oh yes, a lot of ppl complained about it, or to be more prices they wished for a RE version.
And yet Dune 3 was a success and Synapse lived on.

I say stop wasting your time on REs, Synapse - focus on making the VSTs/AUs so much more awesome.
Korg stopped making REs, so did U-he, so did FXpansion, so did Izotope, and McDSP, and Audio Realism. Native Instruments aren't interested in REs, and they rule the world.

Don't waste your time on dead formats.

The OB-XA VST/AU is going to be so awesome. Why put out an inferior RE? WHY?
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Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

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eXode
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Post 21 Dec 2019

scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Dec 2019
Re isn’t dead, it’s just going through growing pains.
More like shrinking/dying pains to be honest ...

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Loque
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Post 21 Dec 2019

My taskbar is filled 2/3 with authorizers. Nuff said.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

sdst
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Post 21 Dec 2019

when the rack extensions started to look like ugly vst, they lost the magic

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Dec 2019

eXode wrote:
21 Dec 2019
scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Dec 2019
Re isn’t dead, it’s just going through growing pains.
More like shrinking/dying pains to be honest ...
Nahhh I don’t see that

Tbh I think it will be more of a place for newer developers, that’s more so how I look at it

As long as cool tools are made I’ll be a happy customer :)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

chaosroyale
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Post 21 Dec 2019

Why would anyone be surprised about this? RE has been dead for ages.

If you are in the Reason bubble and need some reality, go on the KVR news feed. Not the forum, just the news feed front page. That is probably the "industry standard" for information on new releases of plugins.

There are currently 20 new plugins on the front page. None have an RE version. Zero. Zip. Nada.
...and that would be true for the most recent several pages. you might find one out of several hundred.

Even inside Reason itself, RE's have few advantages -
1. you can see them in the Rack. which is good for things like EQ where you need at-a-glance feedback. Not important for samplers or megasynths or anything with menus.
2. they can be used to fix some of the deficiencies in Reasons routing and CV tools. Stuff by Jiggerypokery etc.
3. they can have all the parameters on the back with CV inputs for fast experimentation *even Reason native devices do not do this any more though.

That's it. In every other way, VST is better, even if there is an RE version, the VST often has better performance. And of course, you actually own them and can sell them or pass them on to someone else.

One of the saddest things about the RE market is that there are some legit world-class devices that would have stormed it as a VST but will languish, forgotten by the world due to being RE's.
*anything by Selig, the new Waveshaper 2

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1390
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

Post 21 Dec 2019

chaosroyale wrote:
21 Dec 2019
Why would anyone be surprised about this? RE has been dead for ages.

If you are in the Reason bubble and need some reality, go on the KVR news feed. Not the forum, just the news feed front page. That is probably the "industry standard" for information on new releases of plugins.

There are currently 20 new plugins on the front page. None have an RE version. Zero. Zip. Nada.
...and that would be true for the most recent several pages. you might find one out of several hundred.

Even inside Reason itself, RE's have few advantages -
1. you can see them in the Rack. which is good for things like EQ where you need at-a-glance feedback. Not important for samplers or megasynths or anything with menus.
2. they can be used to fix some of the deficiencies in Reasons routing and CV tools. Stuff by Jiggerypokery etc.
3. they can have all the parameters on the back with CV inputs for fast experimentation *even Reason native devices do not do this any more though.

That's it. In every other way, VST is better, even if there is an RE version, the VST often has better performance. And of course, you actually own them and can sell them or pass them on to someone else.

One of the saddest things about the RE market is that there are some legit world-class devices that would have stormed it as a VST but will languish, forgotten by the world due to being RE's.
*anything by Selig, the new Waveshaper 2
one thing i really don't get about the VST vs RE world. is the idea that there's a competition.

personally i just see them as tools, some are better than others. but its all about what you decide to pick up and use.
all im hoping for, is that at least companies like rob papen and synapse audio make some forms of RE.

even if the synth is a minor version of the mega VST counterpart. its nice to use RE in the reason rack.
vst is amazing, but when im working in reason it just feels better when using RE synths and effects :D

vst is in my toolbox for massive sounds that serum can produce etc. expanse is there for workhorse type sounds, same with Thor and europa.

i just want to keep seeing awesome stuff being made, if a developer kills it. then it inspires us musicians :D its a beautiful thing when a synth just gets you going in a creative vortex
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

scratchnsnifff
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Post 21 Dec 2019

Loque wrote:
20 Dec 2019
m.arthur wrote:
20 Dec 2019
This is neither surprising nor problematic. Reason can run VSTs now. We don't need the new Synapse synth as an RE.

Did you complain when Dune 3 was announced and wasn't available as an RE? Dune 2? That's their flagship synth, and it's not an RE.
Oh yes, a lot of ppl complained about it, or to be more prices they wished for a RE version.
i can understand why developers don't make a light version in the Re format. but i would absolutely get a light version of Dune to be used in the Re format.

antidote is close, has a huge sound just like dune. but it doesn't have many wavetables or the FM module.

hopefully synapse audio makes antidote 2 with some extra features. idk if developers make stuff simply for money. or for love of the craft. but i respect developers a lot more when they are consistent with releases.

for example when rob papen makes a synth. his team does its best at releasing on all platforms (for the most part)

you would think that it would work that way. but at the same time its understandable that porting from VST to Re is probably difficult.
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

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Loque
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Post 21 Dec 2019

scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Dec 2019
...
antidote is close, has a huge sound just like dune. but it doesn't have many wavetables or the FM module.
...
Uhhh...no...between Dune3, Antidote and Legend are big differences IMO, well if i just look at simple analog modes. And from my POV Dune3 is quite lightweight on CPU for that sound quality, which would probably not be possible in current RE SDK version...sadly...

But i agree having Dune3 in the rack and just pull in some extra modulation sources or an external audio for modulation or through the filters and FX...would be great...

Dune3 would also not be possible, because you can add formulas for creating wavetables, which is forbidden in RE format AFAIK...

If RS want to save the format, they need to make the next steps...quickly...Lot of work to do with VST improvements, MIDI, RE SDK, GUI, sequencer, audio editing, ...
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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manisnotabird
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Location: Austin, TX

Post 21 Dec 2019

Many VSTs have an extra set of audio inputs for side chaining, but I'm not aware of any that have extra audio inputs that can be used for audio rate modulation.

aeox
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Post 21 Dec 2019

They won't

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zoidkirb
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Location: Brisbane Australia

Post 21 Dec 2019

Rack extension can and should be relevant into the future. Not much point in Reason with them imo. It's the modularity and interconnectedness of rack extensions that gives the advantage. Combinating players, a good rack synth or two, filters and fx, a bunch of utility re's, all interacting together exactly how I chose and controlled how I chose, is the thing that stops me buying more super synth vsts like falcon or avenger.
The future of rack extensions imo will be more niche products from small companies and reason studios themselves. Devices that really take an overall view of the rack landscape and think what small idea is missing there?

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Proboscis
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Post 21 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
20 Dec 2019
Korg stopped making REs, so did U-he, so did FXpansion, so did Izotope, and McDSP, and Audio Realism. Native Instruments aren't interested in REs, and they rule the world.
While I'm in preference of RE's, to think there is a future for the format is crazy. When that announcement video came out years ago after Ernst said 'VST is shit', every developer praising the then-new format has stopped making RE's. Blamsoft have suggested recently that theyre done. Synapse sound like they're done. Jiggery Pokery has expressed dissatisfaction, so maybe he's done. There are dozens of developers who have released RE's, but stopped years ago. The number of RE's being released each month has dwindled to a trickle, and if we looked at all releases over the last 12 months compared to say four years ago, it's a fraction of how it used to be, and even then the past 12 month numbers are bolstered by two developers (Turn2On, who seems to have done a whole lot of pretty average stuff in a short space of time, and Kuassa, who have operating costs that are 1/10th of most other developers, since they are based in Indonesia, where the cost of living and salaries are comparably much much lower than Europe or USA).

Apart from the occasional niche developer who favors Reason specifically, there's really no point in anyone dedicating resources to the format. The already tiny pool of buyers (Reason users) in the DAW world became a whole lot smaller when VST hosting became possible. And the exodus to other DAWs now that we can take our Rack Extensions to another platform will only increase with every future Reason Release and people eventually upgrade.

I'm in the 'don't want to use VST' camp, for similar reason as has been stated in this thread by others, and will only ever buy Rack Extensions - but to fool ones self with the falsehood that RE's have any future is crazy. The format is - for the most part - dead.

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xboix
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Post 21 Dec 2019

If a developer is making a new VST there is very little commercial incentive to make an RE version of it. Most Reason users that really want it will buy the VST. The only lost business is from those who choose to stick purely to RE and they are very much in the minority of Reason users.

So that leaves REs in the hands of small or "hobby" developers.

Yonatan
Posts: 1107
Joined: 18 Jan 2015

Post 22 Dec 2019

So the widely spread of Rack plugin will not gain RE sales? Then RS might be in a bad state.
Rs has to make it far easier to get a Vst to RE.
But it seems that is not going ro happen because of size restriction of the Rack etc.
But why not make a RE wrapper as is already what we somehow have when we get our vst in the rack as a combinator look.
Why not make a Combinator 2.0 and let any VST be ported to RE by having it as a cool combinator-wrapper with nice controls but just push a button to get the whole full VST in full view. I mean as a middle way to get more Vst to get to fit in the Rack but without redesigning etc.

Do you understand what I am suggesting?
Like a refill/comvinator that fits perfectly with the rack with enough controls as standard.
A Comvinator 2.0 that we all crave for, but allow it to embed any VST so that any developer may put their Vst in the RE shop. A refill for vst.
Same rack format for them on the surface.
A click on enlarge and up pops the imbedded Vst. Every such Combinator RE could have a nice graphic skin that fits the device.

Then you wonder...why not just buy the vst and put it in a Combinator 2.0 and program its buttons to the vst?

Well, I do think there would be an interest to have this done already and with a nice skin, and having that vst to download and bought just as any other RE in the shop. Wrapped RE.
And then one could put that RE combinator inside another Combinator.

I see it more like an option that could be easier in the long run. RS already have the Vst wrapper, they just need to make that wrapper more like an more comprehensive Combinator with the user in mind. It could also make more sense in a live situation.
Make a more advanced Vst wrapper which fits perfectly good with the Rack.
A benefit with this would be that of remote mapping. If many devices has same interface up front in the Rack, it can easily be controlled.

It would work just as any RE, just that it is carrying the vst in its inside, but have specialized controls on its Rack holder and can have all the benefits with the RE ecosystem.
Best of both worlds. And one could then put these in the Rack plugin. The Rack plugin would be a big selling point. As well as they work smooth in Reason standalone too.



.

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platzangst
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Post 22 Dec 2019

I dunno - I'm oversaturated with synths these days, and do I really need another old synth emulation? So at the end of the day I'm looking at what's likely to be another expensive plugin among a lot of other expensive plugins in the market, and if there isn't an RE version to mesh nicely into the rack environment, then personally I'm not feeling particularly excited by this over any other thing.

I'll grant that I'm probably in the overwhelming minority, compared to all the KVR-heads who've been waiting for the death of REs (and probably Reason itself) since the format was introduced, but since Reason is the system I like most, I give preference to what plays nice with that system, and a lot of the rest falls under "eh, maybe if there's a deep sale that happens..."

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selig
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Post 22 Dec 2019

scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Dec 2019
i can understand why developers don't make a light version in the Re format. but i would absolutely get a light version of Dune to be used in the Re format.
IF they're saying they already loose money simply porting a full version, then I wouldn't think it would make MORE sense to do something that will take MORE time and make even LESS money. 💰
Selig Audio, LLC

chaosroyale
Posts: 352
Joined: 05 Sep 2017

Post 22 Dec 2019

kinda hijacking you here ;) but dude, if you ever have the chance, please hook up with a VST developer and release Selig Leveler as a VST before someone else rips it off, or Logic or Cubase copy the idea and make it a native device. Same for coloring EQ. It's clearly better than the "spectre" VST which everyone raved about.
selig wrote:
22 Dec 2019
scratchnsnifff wrote:
21 Dec 2019
i can understand why developers don't make a light version in the Re format. but i would absolutely get a light version of Dune to be used in the Re format.
IF they're saying they already loose money simply porting a full version, then I wouldn't think it would make MORE sense to do something that will take MORE time and make even LESS money. 💰

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miscend
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Post 22 Dec 2019

I recently did the cross grade to the Legend VST. It's free if you have the RE. The RE version has fallen well behind even though it was the lead platform at some point. The VST now supports 8 voices of polyphony and has a mod matrix on the rear. I also appreciate the larger GUI when working longer sessions. The RE format really needs AVX, larger graphics and other quality of life improvements.

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miscend
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Post 22 Dec 2019

eXode wrote:
21 Dec 2019
scratchnsnifff wrote:
20 Dec 2019
Re isn’t dead, it’s just going through growing pains.
More like shrinking/dying pains to be honest ...
I'm shocked. The potential market should be growing. Reason 11 was meant to lure new users into the ecosystem, particularly from those using a different primary DAW but wanting to run Reason as a plugin. There was an enthusiastic reception at KVR and other sites.

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dioxide
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Post 22 Dec 2019

I don't think RS have helped themselves with their new Shop format. It's a layout that doesn't even work a lot of the time (eg. screenshot browsing) and it's often difficult to find the Demo button. That and REs are given the same priority as VSTs when you search. It's pretty bad. Maybe they were trying to compete with Plugin Boutique but I've not seen anything that suggests that this has worked for them. Does anyone buy their VSTs via RS Shop?

For my needs I only plan to use REs, for various reasons including longevity. I got stung by the Mac Intel transition when many devs didn't update their stuff and I like RE's future proofing. However RS have done a terrible job of marketing the advantages of the RE format outside of the Reason faithful, so I'm unsurprised that it's seen as just another format. RS adding VST support and adoption of a subscription model to an already low-profit product have most likely put the final nails in the coffin. This disappoints me greatly because for me it's a superior format.

aeox
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Post 23 Dec 2019

xboix wrote:
21 Dec 2019

So that leaves REs in the hands of small or "hobby" developers.
Which is w here all the good and innovative stuff comes from anyway :thumbs_up:

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hurricane
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Post 23 Dec 2019

aeox wrote:
23 Dec 2019
xboix wrote:
21 Dec 2019

So that leaves REs in the hands of small or "hobby" developers.
Which is w here all the good and innovative stuff comes from anyway :thumbs_up:
Name an innovative RE. Bet there is a more full featured VST equivalent. The thing is these most of these small developers aren't creating anything original and creative. A CV utility isn't going to excite the masses. Rack extensions are like obscure indie records and Reason needs Top 40 #1 hits. This is why they need to go all in on external instruments and plugins. Support VST3, AU, multitimbral output, and midi out. They obviously can't get REs up to VST standards. God, like just do ONE thing right. Enough with the 'half-assed/half-finished' mentality.
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music | https://soundcloud.com/hurricaneaudiolab
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700/TR-09 | UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | SL990 PRO

aeox
Posts: 2651
Joined: 23 Feb 2017

Post 23 Dec 2019

hurricane wrote:
23 Dec 2019
aeox wrote:
23 Dec 2019


Which is w here all the good and innovative stuff comes from anyway :thumbs_up:
Name an innovative RE. Bet there is a more full featured VST equivalent. The thing is these most of these small developers aren't creating anything original and creative. A CV utility isn't going to excite the masses. Rack extensions are like obscure indie records and Reason needs Top 40 #1 hits. This is why they need to go all in on external instruments and plugins. Support VST3, AU, multitimbral output, and midi out. They obviously can't get REs up to VST standards. God, like just do ONE thing right. Enough with the 'half-assed/half-finished' mentality.
Coloring EQ is the first device that pops up in my mind.

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