Rack Extensions Rule, VST Sucks

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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Oquasec
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Post 01 Oct 2019

Vsts and RE are written in the same language so I'm pretty sure they will be sounding somewhat similar.
Omnisphere is probably Reason 5 and omnisphere 2 is probably Reason 8 or something.
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EnochLight
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Post 01 Oct 2019

Oquasec wrote:
01 Oct 2019
Vsts and RE are written in the same language so I'm pretty sure they will be sounding somewhat similar.
The language a plugin is written in has zero to do with how it sounds.
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Oquasec
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Post 01 Oct 2019

How each dev programs a plugin in that language differs.
The language is the same tho.
However I wanna know what it was like for the spire devs to do it.
I wonder what they had to change to make that thing a rack.
---
Did they use a different library for that or was there like some tiny changes?
Why is Reason a vst now? What was it like converting propellerhead to vst3?
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EnochLight
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Post 01 Oct 2019

Oquasec wrote:
01 Oct 2019
How each dev programs a plugin in that language differs.
The language is the same tho.
I was addressing your assertion that RE’s and VST’s sound similar because of the language they’re written in. You appear to be conflating things that are unrelated.
Oquasec wrote:
01 Oct 2019
However I wanna know what it was like for the spire devs to do it.
I wonder what they had to change to make that thing a rack.
---
Did they use a different library for that or was there like some tiny changes?
What do you mean “a different library”? Anyway, clearly they had to make a ton of changes to accommodate Reason’s rack. And the fact that they haven’t bothered to update it and make it more in alignment with the VST (GUI-wise) speaks volumes.
Oquasec wrote:
01 Oct 2019
Why is Reason a vst now?
Because Propellerhead’s (Reason Studios) research has shown that a lot of people wanted it, and they knew a lot of ex-Reasoners and new would buy it and make them a shit ton of money.
Oquasec wrote:
01 Oct 2019
What was it like converting propellerhead to vst3?
You mean Reason? Propellerhead (was) the name of the company. I would imagine converting Reason to VST3 presented some challenges, if the beta test was anything to go by. ;)
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Oquasec
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Post 01 Oct 2019

I'm guessing we ain't supposed to know how much they had to change the code to get all that working.
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WongoTheSane
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Post 02 Oct 2019

EnochLight wrote:
01 Oct 2019
You mean Reason? Propellerhead (was) the name of the company. I would imagine converting Reason to VST3 presented some challenges, if the beta test was anything to go by. ;)
No... Wait... What about Ableton? Does it work as vst3?

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EnochLight
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Post 02 Oct 2019

WongoTheSane wrote:
02 Oct 2019
No... Wait... What about Ableton? Does it work as vst3?
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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ortxedys
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Post 03 Oct 2019

Ive tried Omnisphere and have to echo what others said. Its without a doubt overrated. Im sure most of the people saying it, like me, are into synthesis and sound design. We see through the marketing. Though I will give them the fact they have some interesting sample sources.

People who preset hunt, are the crowd who tends to be more of a fan of it. Nothing wrong with that. I just get more satisfaction making most of my patches from scratch. (Except some multisampled real instruments ofcourse)

Yonatan
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Post 08 Oct 2019

RE is good for the one click installation, and that it gives 1 less mouse click when working in the Reason Rack. Also handy having all in one shop. But all these "good" comns with drawbacks as well. For instance the lack of selling or giving single RE:s to others, no adding of devices licenses when one in theory buy bundles with same devices. No complete bundle, a lacking reward system, not enough intelligent sync function with Authorizer (uncheck devices not wanting to automatically reinstall) etc. Biggest advantage would be for developers to get their RE protected from pirates and for smaller ones to avoid the mess of the continually adaptation to new MacOS or Windows. Best for customers is to keep good check of ones RE collection and their updates etc. If finding a golden middle road, the RE system and shop and development can be a win-win.
Last edited by Yonatan on 08 Oct 2019, edited 9 times in total.
Reason for all Seasons

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Oquasec
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Post 08 Oct 2019

I LOVE THAT THEY USE CODEMETER
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ShelLuser
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Post 08 Oct 2019

I can also fully agree with the OP... I don't necessarily hate VST's but I definitely don't enjoy using them in Reason. It's like you said: the workflow is so off. And even though it doesn't matter for the music itself I also dislike the bland logo's you get to see in your rack which denote all the VST's. I tried to use VST's in Reason once (it doesn't automatically work because I don't keep my vst's in a default location) and then disabled the whole thing within an hour.

A fair disclaimer: I could have overlooked stuff. But I really didn't like the sheer chaos that dripped into my rack. By default you can easily see what brand made your RE. I have a section for Synapse, Skrock, UJAM... but those vst's got spread in there and it wasn't exactly clear what stuff you had. In Live I can use folders to separate and sort out my vst's, not so much in Reason leaving me with a huge pile of an unsorted mess.

RE's are much better than that. Also more stable.

In Reason I stick with RE's (and even though I didn't intent to I collected a nice share) and in Live I use VST's. This was I even get to combine the two using ReWire.
--- :reason:
Using the 'Big trio': Ableton Live 10 suite (+ Push & Max 8), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.

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reddust
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Post 08 Oct 2019

I actually prefer VST over REs, mainly because of quality reasons. Let me know when there is a RE that can compete with BFD3 on drums or LA Scoring Strings when it comes to strings, not to mention also VST for electronic music like Serum or Aparillo.

I know they mean more work but who said making music should be an easy task? ;)

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Oct 2019

reddust wrote:
08 Oct 2019
who said making music should be an easy task? ;)
This has literally been Propellerhead's/Reason Studio's mission statement for the past 2 decades. ;) :lol:
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hurricane
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Post 08 Oct 2019

Well if you think using VSTs is difficult, then maybe you should hop on your carriage and have the horse take you to computer school to take computer classes, Dad. :puf_bigsmile:
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700 | Steinberg UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | Mackie SR24x4 | StudioLogic SL990 PRO

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guitfnky
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Post 08 Oct 2019

reddust wrote:
08 Oct 2019
I actually prefer VST over REs, mainly because of quality reasons. Let me know when there is a RE that can compete with BFD3 on drums or LA Scoring Strings when it comes to strings, not to mention also VST for electronic music like Serum or Aparillo.

I know they mean more work but who said making music should be an easy task? ;)
your main examples are sample libraries though. the quality of a sample library is down to the developer, not the platform. a BFD Rack Extension could be every bit as good, or better, than the VST version, if the developer decided to go that route.

as for synths, I think that's probably subjective, in terms of quality. I've used Serum, and I've used Europa, and honestly, Europa sounds much better to my ears (but I'm not really a 'synth guy', so there's that).

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Oct 2019

Ahhh - the whole "you're old" thing. How adorable! :roll: :lol:
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hurricane
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Post 08 Oct 2019

VST synths that are leaps and bounds more accomplished sonically and visually than any rack extension:

Pigments
Hive
Zebra
Diva
Repro
Synthmaster
Sylenth
Avenger
Serum
Massive
OPX Pro II
Poly-Ana
Strobe

Which synth RE would you seriously put up against these? No contest whatsoever.

In conclusion, VSTs Rule and Rack Extensions SUCK.
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700 | Steinberg UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | Mackie SR24x4 | StudioLogic SL990 PRO

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Oct 2019

hurricane wrote:
08 Oct 2019
VST synths that are leaps and bounds more accomplished sonically and visually than any rack extension:

Pigments
Hive
Zebra
Diva
Repro
Synthmaster
Sylenth
Avenger
Serum
Massive
OPX Pro II
Poly-Ana
Strobe

Which synth RE would you seriously put up against these? No contest whatsoever.

In conclusion, VSTs Rule and Rack Extensions SUCK.
You're missing... OMNISPHERE!!??? :o :shock: ;) :lol:
Win 10 | Reason 11 |  Studio One 4.5 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Reactor 1TB SSD | RME Babyface Pro | Nektar Panorama P-4 | Akai MPC Live | Roland System 8 and System 1 | Roland TR-8 with 7x7 Expansion | Roland TB-3 | Roland VT-4 | Roland MX-1

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hurricane
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Post 08 Oct 2019

EnochLight wrote:
08 Oct 2019
You're missing... OMNISPHERE!!??? :o :shock: ;) :lol:
Some unsophisticated person would have said "Omnisphere is a ROOOOOOMPLERRRRRRRR". :roll:
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
Mac mini (Late 2012) | Logic Pro X | Reason 10.4 | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | JP-8080 | Virus Classic | Roland XP-80/XP-30/RD-700 | Steinberg UR22mkII | Emagic AMT8 | Mackie SR24x4 | StudioLogic SL990 PRO

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reddust
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Post 08 Oct 2019

guitfnky wrote:
08 Oct 2019
your main examples are sample libraries though. the quality of a sample library is down to the developer, not the platform. a BFD Rack Extension could be every bit as good, or better, than the VST version, if the developer decided to go that route.

as for synths, I think that's probably subjective, in terms of quality. I've used Serum, and I've used Europa, and honestly, Europa sounds much better to my ears (but I'm not really a 'synth guy', so there's that).
Sure, well, I understand VST means VST in general, no matter if library or not. Unfortunately there aren't any REs that can really compete with the VST libraries I mentioned. I could also name a VST like SubLab for 808 kicks, which in my opinion doesn't have a real competitor in RE form, or many of the VSTs by Output like Substance or analog strings... aparillo too... for me all of them let most of the REs in Reason look like toys, interesting ones but toys.

And I say most because there some very good REs in Reason as well, I really like Resonans, Parsec 2, Complex-1... Europa is good too but in my opinion can't really compare to Serum either. I don't know how much you've tried Serum but it's far more than just a tool for dubstep basslines. When you can play them both side by side you see Europa is also a nice to have tool but in my opinion nothing like Serum.

You're right most of these devs could as well have offered their VST instruments as REs for Reason but unfortunately they don't, so actually the discussion is more about what we can get in each format rather than to confirm the one format is better than the other, I don't think the format makes any difference in terms of quality but the quality of the instruments we can get depending on that format does. I wished RE would be a more extended option so most devs would make also a RE version of their instruments, that'd be great for us Reason users.

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Oct 2019

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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BRIGGS
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Post 08 Oct 2019

"Rack Extensions Rule, VST Sucks"

TLDR

Actually, rack extensions have too many rules. Your average 'joe bag of donuts', can't cook up his own home brew devices. :roll:
buy BTC

mind2069
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Post 08 Oct 2019

For me vst's are fine, it's just when I formatted my computer that I realize the pain of reinstalling the vst's were kind of a pain with all the different autorization process of each company, retreiving passwords ect. once this is done, it's all good. Such a breeze with re's in comparison

zoidkirb
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Post 08 Oct 2019

mind2069 wrote:
08 Oct 2019
For me vst's are fine, it's just when I formatted my computer that I realize the pain of reinstalling the vst's were kind of a pain with all the different autorization process of each company, retreiving passwords ect. once this is done, it's all good. Such a breeze with re's in comparison
I'm dreading when the time comes for this. I'm probably gonna get some sort of password manager to at least help with part of the hassle. Reason Studios really got the re management/installation part of Reason so right. Even compared to other daws like cubase and ableton live it's miles ahead.

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ShelLuser
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Post 08 Oct 2019

zoidkirb wrote:
08 Oct 2019
Reason Studios really got the re management/installation part of Reason so right. Even compared to other daws like cubase and ableton live it's miles ahead.
When it's only about ease of use and such, yes. But anything beyond that.... With those other two products (Live being my main example) I have full control over where I want my VSTs to get installed. This is very important to me because I have a modern PC with a limited amount of SSD storage (C drive) and several terrabytes of HD storage on D.

Ergo: I want to be in control. But guess what? That's not how this works. Rack extensions, with all their (sometimes) huge sample libraries, all get dumped onto my C drive no questions asked. And of course no possibility to change the install destination.

Even Windows' app store allows me to designate another storage other than C to contain all my easily installed software. But not Reason's setup.

And speaking of Ableton Live... Ableton also jumped on the "lets set up a marketplace and sell stuff" which they called "packs". You can buy a pack and then install that in Live. It's definitely not as easy as simply clicking "download" and having an authorizer set the whole thing up, but it comes very close.. All I have to do in Live is download the pack and then simply drag & drop it onto Live. Or simply try to start it after which Live will take over and install the whole thing. Guess what? Once again I am in full control over where I want all this data installed. Even though I have the Live software installed on C, all my data (samples, presets and packs and such) all reside on D.

Live can acknowledge this (I can even install the entire Live library (comparable to the Reason sound banks) onto D). Also all my Native Instrument samples reside on D, together with all their players and some of the instruments I bought. And as mentioned above same applies to all my VST's.

Basically... every major brand allows me to install my stuff in a location where I want it to get installed. Even if I want the software to go on C and my data on D.

But with Reason otoh not so much.... sorry, but that's definitely not "miles ahead". Quite the contrary even.
--- :reason:
Using the 'Big trio': Ableton Live 10 suite (+ Push & Max 8), Reason 10 and Komplete 12.

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