Softube won't be making REs anymore :(

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JiggeryPokery
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Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 10 Aug 2019

kitekrazy wrote:
09 Aug 2019
I only buy REs that are unique and cheap. Since I have a zillion VSTs I only buy Kiloharts as REs.
Unique and cheap? That's an unlikely combination!

There's always a balance between setting a price high enough to make the effort worth while, and not setting it too high, but if a device is priced too cheaply or discounted rapidly that tells you the value the developer put on a device right from the off.

And actually—aside from mere taste in GUI design, that is a bit of a variable quantity as few would buy a device that they don't like the look of—from a purely functional and audible perspective, why would you buy a device that technically and sonically is obviously not as good as another device just because it's cheaper? That's a false economy that's costing you more if you'd have gotten better results from a different device. Because when you do realise the more expensive product is actually better you end up getting that and it's probably cost you more than just buying it the first time (even in a sale). By only limiting yourself to a single developer, however good some individual products may be, surely you're limiting your own options?

owlymane
Posts: 127
Joined: 27 Feb 2019

Post 10 Aug 2019

JiggeryPokery wrote:
10 Aug 2019
owlymane wrote:
09 Aug 2019

2 - a filter high-low pass delay RE (to make that dub techno/dub reggae echo sound effect)
(
Steerpike 3 can do pretty much all that: infnite delay (DDL for clean, BBD to degrade), reverse delay, delay modulation, pre/post/feedback loop LP/BP/HP filter, extra reverb. It's always depressing when people ask for things that are already available and easily as good as anything in the VST world!
Hey Jiggery thank you for your reply and all your hard work throughout the years! I love barCHIMES it is so simple but it just fits perfectly my style of production thank you for it :D Also all your generously offered super spiders..much love man and full support!

YES now that you mention Steerpike I remember when it first came out (I'm checking now it's at version 3, nice!) it was at the top shop list but I forgot about it. Getting the trial version right now :thumbs_up:

I just feel like when it comes to creative FX, in general, there are many ALL-IN-ONE REs that provide you different types of FX in one and presented in a messy GUI. I personally prefer focused REs that provide one QUALITY effect with flexible control instead of many shallow effects. Khs does that but, again, my personal opinion, the quality of their effects is not top-notch for me except some of them. But I like that each RE does 1 thing instead of many things that end up confusing me.

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miscend
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Post 10 Aug 2019

scratchnsnifff wrote:
09 Aug 2019


Da hell did blamsoft go?
I really hope PH is going to make use of their RE to hardware interface. Or the potential of RE to vst conversion.(Europa vst)

I’m really dying for another blamsoft device these days, but it’s not looking so good. Just guessing, but I’m assuming they will try out a blamsoft expanse vst. If that were to happen I’d get it, but I love sound design via RE sooooo much more
They started making iOS AU3 devices and then ported Viking to VST. My guess is that either Viking 2 or Expanse is coming to VST.

fullforce
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Joined: 18 Aug 2018

Post 10 Aug 2019

Let's see. Oh I got the saturation knob! Which was free. Never paid for those overpriced things. Fuck 'em.
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dioxide
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Post 10 Aug 2019

I've got some Softube REs and I like them, so I've got mixed feelings about this. Part of me wants to say "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you walk out" but actually I think it's a shame they are no longer supporting Rack Extensions.

For me the format is more important than the device, so I don't use VSTs and have plans to, and so I won't be buying any more Softube stuff. I've got plenty of good REs, some of which I've hardly scratched the surface of. I can make music with what I have, for years to be honest. Sure, I like shiny new things too, but there is very little I still need these days, which is different from when REs first arrived on the scene, when I'd spent years battling the limitations of the stock devices. The landscape for both RE and VST is different now.

It's interesting to me to see where the plugin market goes from here, as the emulations are pretty good these days. For the non-emulated plugins, there's usually lots of choice. I think we're spoiled for choice and it is becoming increasingly difficult to innovate or stand out. So I'm wondering what all these plugin developers plan to do in order to carry their business forward. I mean with VST there is always the compatibility upgrade cycle, keep milking the customers when OS updates inevitably break things, something that I'm happy not to be part of as a RE user. But these companies are going to have to come up with something good now that there is so much choice and the classic gear has mostly been emulated to a useable standard. It's going to be interesting to see what happens next.
hurricane wrote:
09 Aug 2019
Off the top of my head, here are the major players that will probably never release a RE again.

U-he (confirmed)
FXpansion (it's been a while, time to give up)
Softube (confirmed)
Korg (yeah right)
McDSP (I think they're done)
Audio Damage (one and done)
e-instruments (no more)
Heavyocity (thank goodness)
Izotope (also one and done)
Project Sam (ditto)
Sonic Charge (?)
Soundiron (?)
Synapse (still a chance)
Personally I wouldn't count Audio Damage, Izotope, Project Sam or any developers who were testing the water with a RE as having abandoned the platform. They were never really in it to begin with. Sonic Charge haven't released anything in a few years, and appear to have gone down the hardware route. They made good plugins but appear to have stopped releasing things, at least for now. Korg are doing their thing with Gadget, but I think it's been a while since they released a more fully featured instrument aimed at other DAWs.

kitekrazy
Posts: 723
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Aug 2019

JiggeryPokery wrote:
10 Aug 2019
kitekrazy wrote:
09 Aug 2019
I only buy REs that are unique and cheap. Since I have a zillion VSTs I only buy Kiloharts as REs.
Unique and cheap? That's an unlikely combination!

There's always a balance between setting a price high enough to make the effort worth while, and not setting it too high, but if a device is priced too cheaply or discounted rapidly that tells you the value the developer put on a device right from the off.

And actually—aside from mere taste in GUI design, that is a bit of a variable quantity as few would buy a device that they don't like the look of—from a purely functional and audible perspective, why would you buy a device that technically and sonically is obviously not as good as another device just because it's cheaper? That's a false economy that's costing you more if you'd have gotten better results from a different device. Because when you do realise the more expensive product is actually better you end up getting that and it's probably cost you more than just buying it the first time (even in a sale). By only limiting yourself to a single developer, however good some individual products may be, surely you're limiting your own options?
Sounds like something a developer would say. I always wait for sales. Here's the developer speak:: Price and Quality. See this subject header? It's a contradiction. What is the real killer here for RE's is the extreme competition in the VST market that have deflated the price of plugins. See what's going on with Plugin Alliance. They gave vouchers and reduced prices where you almost got stuff free and now it's UH, OH we need to offer subscription. Check out the VST thread.
Cost and quality is nothing but a sales pitch. I could make quite a list where that is proves this wrong. Many people with Izotope licenses got their MP Suite for $125. They are some of the best plugins in the industry. People own Waves Gold for under $70. IK has a never failed to me it's quota group buy. Then there are small developers like Tokyo Dawn Labs that have free products that are better than what people pay for. Then there are Kontakt libraries where price means nothing. Also there is Vahalla who doesn't do sales but keeps the price low.
I can't see where paying over $50 for an RE would make sense anymore. To do that Reason would be your only DAW which is not in my case.

There are also developers who think the market would pay $600 for a software EQ and thinking some people would assume it's far better than anything out there.

kitekrazy
Posts: 723
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 10 Aug 2019

dioxide wrote:
10 Aug 2019
I've got some Softube REs and I like them, so I've got mixed feelings about this. Part of me wants to say "don't let the door hit you on the ass as you walk out" but actually I think it's a shame they are no longer supporting Rack Extensions.

For me the format is more important than the device, so I don't use VSTs and have plans to, and so I won't be buying any more Softube stuff. I've got plenty of good REs, some of which I've hardly scratched the surface of. I can make music with what I have, for years to be honest. Sure, I like shiny new things too, but there is very little I still need these days, which is different from when REs first arrived on the scene, when I'd spent years battling the limitations of the stock devices. The landscape for both RE and VST is different now.

It's interesting to me to see where the plugin market goes from here, as the emulations are pretty good these days. For the non-emulated plugins, there's usually lots of choice. I think we're spoiled for choice and it is becoming increasingly difficult to innovate or stand out. So I'm wondering what all these plugin developers plan to do in order to carry their business forward. I mean with VST there is always the compatibility upgrade cycle, keep milking the customers when OS updates inevitably break things, something that I'm happy not to be part of as a RE user. But these companies are going to have to come up with something good now that there is so much choice and the classic gear has mostly been emulated to a useable standard. It's going to be interesting to see what happens next.
hurricane wrote:
09 Aug 2019
Off the top of my head, here are the major players that will probably never release a RE again.

U-he (confirmed)
FXpansion (it's been a while, time to give up)
Softube (confirmed)
Korg (yeah right)
McDSP (I think they're done)
Audio Damage (one and done)
e-instruments (no more)
Heavyocity (thank goodness)
Izotope (also one and done)
Project Sam (ditto)
Sonic Charge (?)
Soundiron (?)
Synapse (still a chance)
Personally I wouldn't count Audio Damage, Izotope, Project Sam or any developers who were testing the water with a RE as having abandoned the platform. They were never really in it to begin with. Sonic Charge haven't released anything in a few years, and appear to have gone down the hardware route. They made good plugins but appear to have stopped releasing things, at least for now. Korg are doing their thing with Gadget, but I think it's been a while since they released a more fully featured instrument aimed at other DAWs.
Korg hasn't even updated their VSTs,
Large sample based REs are only for Reason diehards. I have ProjectSam libraries for Kontakt and they are on a separate drive. The issue here is you can't create an RE that is close to quality of the Kontakt engine. There is also another possible trend of developers not wanting to pay for the licensing fee to NI or Props.

And if stuff works there is no need to update it so they make new stuff.

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Re8et
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Post 10 Aug 2019

owlymane wrote:
08 Aug 2019
hurricane wrote:
08 Aug 2019
Softube won't be making more REs? Talk about the least surprising news of yesterday. I hope you're not sitting there highly anticipating the next Korg RE. :puf_bigsmile:
I've been out of the loop Korg is making a new RE that's great!
What is Korg doing?????????????????????????

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dioxide
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Post 10 Aug 2019

Re8et wrote:
10 Aug 2019
owlymane wrote:
08 Aug 2019


I've been out of the loop Korg is making a new RE that's great!
What is Korg doing?????????????????????????
I think he was trying to say don't expect anything new from Korg. Like, "don't hold your breath".

owlymane
Posts: 127
Joined: 27 Feb 2019

Post 10 Aug 2019

dioxide wrote:
10 Aug 2019
Re8et wrote:
10 Aug 2019


What is Korg doing?????????????????????????
I think he was trying to say don't expect anything new from Korg. Like, "don't hold your breath".
Oh :lol: gotchu

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JiggeryPokery
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Post 11 Aug 2019

kitekrazy wrote:
10 Aug 2019
The issue here is you can't create an RE that is close to quality of the Kontakt engine. There is also another possible trend of developers not wanting to pay for the licensing fee to NI or Props.
Kontakt is the de facto sample-player build format right now, it's not that it's inherently better in some magical way, it just got lucky when NI put a ton of money and resources into it. We could just have easily been talking about SampleTank or Gigasampler if IK or whoever had they developed their systems better first. Currently I don't think the gulf to Gorilla, a uJam system, not Props, is that wide on a technical level—albeit there are some exceptions regarding Gorilla's use in Reason, which is a Props system, but NDA etc—the limitations are mostly ones of scale/finance/visibility. NI are a 100m company. Everyone else isn't. :roll:

So while I don't really agree on the first point, in a tick list of things each can and can't do and depending upon the particular type of sample content, after all is said I'd have be brave play the Reason defence too much I suspect so I'll call it a draw ;)

If I had to guess (and invariably I do), the failure of the big Kontakt devs to produce successful Reason conversions is less about lack of sample streaming, though of course that hurts, but the products were—to a product—fairly lazily converted by people who it appeared didn't really understand the Reason environment, and using an unfamiliar SDK for the first time to try and produce fairly large products that ended up with terrible looking devices with half-arsed features; that's rarely going to end well in terms of user reactions, which then causes them to disappear. Then the moment Reason supported Kontakt natively there's zero point in even bothering to convert in the first place.

Your second point above, though, is very interesting. NI licensing is upfront payments for a limited number of licenses, which both makes it a risky upfront cost BUT it keeps prices for the major Kontakt libraries high, as devs know they have to get a return on each set of license purchases before they ever see a fucking cent of revenue for themselves.

With PH/uJam it's different, you get a return from the start. The downside is with instant revenue it became a race to the bottom for some devs who've had literally zero appreciation of long-term economic viability of their businesses by undervaluing their products, forcing other devs to do the same to compete.

To compound the problem, and this applies to both the "normal" C++ RE SDK and the Gorilla side, I don't think developers objected to the substantial % PH take based on what Ernst's original announcement stated (or at least very much implied, we'd have to check the exact wording tbh, it was a long time ago :lol: ) they'd do - new devices would mostly be via third party allowing PH to concentrate on developing the SDK and the Reason environment itself. That's really not what happened. By 2016 it was apparent SDK updates were occasional and threadbare, and most critically PH used the significant revenue income RE provides (due to getting a cut of every sale of every product by every developer) to effectively produce a constant stream of directly competing devices at the high end (and in the last 12 months doing so even more cheaply by repackaging or licensing 15 year old samplesets in easy-to-produce Gorilla-based products for which they get 80% of the revenue compared to our 50%, who likes them apples? (fwiw uJam get 20%). RE devs cannot compete with that (even if there's one or two who still think they can). The RE format is now on the cusp of being an IDT-based format for hobbyists only, and what the RE format could have been by now had they put the damn resources into developing that and reworking a few fundamentals like the GUI to improve rendering speeds for example (I mean the big USP in 2012 was the future-proofed support for hiDPI; but this was six years ago and still isn't been utilised. A USP is not a USP if one doesn't bloody use it) rather than supporting and recommending perfectly cromulent third-party products.

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miscend
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Post 11 Aug 2019

It's not like Kontakt is the best of the best either, the scripting engines in stuff like UVI and Halion have many advantages. Kontakt just has a larger more mature market and ecosystem.

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motuscott
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Post 11 Aug 2019

JiggeryPokery wrote:
11 Aug 2019
cromulent
Damn Jig, you're using vocabulary like a trained assassin.
Sometimes a cigar is just a synth that's on fire

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boingy
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Post 11 Aug 2019

motuscott wrote:
11 Aug 2019
JiggeryPokery wrote:
11 Aug 2019
cromulent
Damn Jig, you're using vocabulary like a trained assassin.
If only he could be more concise. TL;DR :lol:

two shoes
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Post 11 Aug 2019

i posted about Softube abandoning the RE format a long time ago when they told me none of their REs would even be getting the mkII updates all their VSTs got awhile back - they told me they couldn't update them because their gui guy was too busy and people could "just buy the VST now anyways". Like several big developers I've talked to about the future (or not) of their REs Softtube had somehow got the impression that REs and VSTs are now interchangeable in Reason.

while Reason/Propellerheads long term trajectory is definitely still negative, I'm not sure about short term though they've certainly done everything in their power to lose any momentum they gained from the "news" that Reason supports VSTs now which got a lot of people to download it again who had written it off back in the aughts. i think it's fair to say that the next 1-3 major updates will be make or break for Reason. if you start to see developers like Lectric Panda, Blamsoft, Synapse, Jiggery Pokery, Selig, and Robotic Beans all stop releasing REs then it's probably time to start shopping around for a new DAW or at least one to rewire Reason into.

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hurricane
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Post 11 Aug 2019

two shoes wrote:
11 Aug 2019
if you start to see developers like Lectric Panda, Blamsoft, Synapse, Jiggery Pokery, Selig, and Robotic Beans all stop releasing REs then it's probably time to start shopping around for a new DAW or at least one to rewire Reason into.
Why? Will VSTs stop working or something? :puf_bigsmile:
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
Mac mini (Late 2012) | macOS Mojave | Logic Pro X | Pro Tools | Reason | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | Steinberg UR22mkII | Emagic AMT 8 | Mackie SR24x4 | StudioLogic SL 990 PRO

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Loque
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Post 11 Aug 2019

two shoes wrote:
11 Aug 2019
i posted about Softube abandoning the RE format a long time ago when they told me none of their REs would even be getting the mkII updates all their VSTs got awhile back - they told me they couldn't update them because their gui guy was too busy and people could "just buy the VST now anyways". Like several big developers I've talked to about the future (or not) of their REs Softtube had somehow got the impression that REs and VSTs are now interchangeable in Reason.

while Reason/Propellerheads long term trajectory is definitely still negative, I'm not sure about short term though they've certainly done everything in their power to lose any momentum they gained from the "news" that Reason supports VSTs now which got a lot of people to download it again who had written it off back in the aughts. i think it's fair to say that the next 1-3 major updates will be make or break for Reason. if you start to see developers like Lectric Panda, Blamsoft, Synapse, Jiggery Pokery, Selig, and Robotic Beans all stop releasing REs then it's probably time to start shopping around for a new DAW or at least one to rewire Reason into.
Pretty negative... I got surprised a few times in the past by PH... We will see. The rest is speculation.
:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

ortxedys
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Post 11 Aug 2019

I feel that RE’s now will be left to the Reason enthusiast. I for one would buy a RE over a vst anyday. The one thing I LOVE about RE’s is the fact they’re nicely laid out in your account page. With VST’s (often, not always) you’re going through a bunch of different vendors and that can cause chaos when trying to reinstall a bunch of them.

I simply feel secure when buying RE’s. I imagine myself installing idk, Reason 15, 3 computers from now and every single RE i’ve bought just lined up ready to go for a download. Hopefully some developers see the upside to them... Am I the only that buys them for this very reason?

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dioxide
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Post 11 Aug 2019

ortxedys wrote:
11 Aug 2019
I feel that RE’s now will be left to the Reason enthusiast. I for one would buy a RE over a vst anyday.
Yeah I hope PH do something to secure the future of RE. I'm a Reason fanboy so I'll be focused on REs and Reason over anything else. But not everyone is like this and many are already using other DAWs and VSTs. I want to know what PH plan to do to stop everyone just jumping ship.
ortxedys wrote:
11 Aug 2019
I simply feel secure when buying RE’s. I imagine myself installing idk, Reason 15, 3 computers from now and every single RE i’ve bought just lined up ready to go for a download. Hopefully some developers see the upside to them... Am I the only that buys them for this very reason?
This is a big factor for me too. I dabbled with a few VSTs in the dark days of Reason, but it was also around the time that Apple switched over to Intel chips and everyone had to rewrite their plugins. The slow wait for devs to update their software, the realisation that many plugins might never be updated, and the pain of installations and serials are all reasons that I'm not keen on going down the VST path. All those problems still exist today. PH should really sell this side of REs more, it's a really important advantage over other formats.

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hurricane
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Post 11 Aug 2019

dioxide wrote:
11 Aug 2019
This is a big factor for me too. I dabbled with a few VSTs in the dark days of Reason, but it was also around the time that Apple switched over to Intel chips and everyone had to rewrite their plugins. The slow wait for devs to update their software, the realisation that many plugins might never be updated, and the pain of installations and serials are all reasons that I'm not keen on going down the VST path. All those problems still exist today. PH should really sell this side of REs more, it's a really important advantage over other formats.
Doesn't seem to be a problem for the THOUSANDS of people using other DAWS.
https://soundcloud.com/hurricane-music
Mac mini (Late 2012) | macOS Mojave | Logic Pro X | Pro Tools | Reason | DX7 | DX7s | TX7 | CZ-1 | Steinberg UR22mkII | Emagic AMT 8 | Mackie SR24x4 | StudioLogic SL 990 PRO

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dioxide
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Post 11 Aug 2019

hurricane wrote:
11 Aug 2019
Doesn't seem to be a problem for the THOUSANDS of people using other DAWS.
I'm not so sure. They just think that this is as good as software can be, and don't know that there are better alternatives. I have a friend who has so many plugins and DAWs that he can't upgrade his OS. He ended up buying a new computer and keeps the old one around in case he needs some of the old stuff. I think the resurgence in hardware is partly down to the instability and impermanence of software, and badly mapped generic MIDI controllers. Anyway, plenty of people don't need their plugins to last 5-10 years, especially people who bounce everything down to audio. Good for them. I want my software to be as reliable and as long lasting as hardware.

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motuscott
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Post 11 Aug 2019

I'm with you Dioxide. Softube may have quit the RE format, but I feel pretty secure just refreshing my RE's on the Prop's my account page.
I get it, fool's paradise...
Sometimes a cigar is just a synth that's on fire

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boingy
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Post 12 Aug 2019

motuscott wrote:
11 Aug 2019
I'm with you Dioxide. Softube may have quit the RE format, but I feel pretty secure just refreshing my RE's on the Prop's my account page.
I get it, fool's paradise...
I feel like REs have had their day but there is no disputing that they are very convenient when you need to reinstall on a new or reformatted computer. Making them scale to modern screens would be a massive boost. Where I have VST/RE duplicates I always use the VST because it is easier to read.

Of course, the downside to the whole RE thing is the lack of portability to other DAWs and the fact they we are very vulnerable to PH going out of business, changing direction, being sold etc etc.

If you don't think it can happen, look at Cakewalk. A big player just abandoned by it's parent company (Gibson). Cakewalk is now resurrected by Bandlab but without many of the top drawer instruments and effects.

ltbrunt00
Posts: 396
Joined: 10 Jan 2017

Post 12 Aug 2019

I almost always only buy Rack Extension synths in reason. I am a sucker for tight integration whenever possible. With the exception of what comes with Kontakt I only buy VST Synths when they are dirt cheap.
Reason 10.5

sdst
Posts: 644
Joined: 14 Jun 2015

Post 12 Aug 2019

very sad news
hope Softube leaves the REs for free before leaving. :)

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