Unpopular opinion: "Players" are the worst feature of Reason

[Marc64]

I see the players as a extension of a instrument.
Like for example the dual arp, If a synth don't have an arp built in, well add it and there you go.
Same with cords and the rest, they just enhances the synths with features that are missing
That's my thought anyway

Yeah and they connect like a cartridge to a video game system



Or can be seen functioning like a game genie

[zoidkirb]

I like the players, actually they're maybe one of the best things about reason....except the price...the price is a bit insane for some of the big players which is why I'm glad I find my own ways to get similar, and more unique results by cobbling together combinators loaded with stock players, the bargain retouch control players, and older utilities like cv spider, ochenk probability trigger, eclid etc. Not having cables/cv on the rear of certain devices is a disappointment sure, but for me almost moot since cvpt, loveone cv-midi converter, and the combinator exist.

[reggie1979]

I like players fine. I just think that at times, some overlap.

[Magnus]

I agree a little bit. I cannot fully follow the vision of the Players. I'd rather had seen a midi and or data cable, which devices could manipulate. The Players are a bit too limited compared to full midi.

On the other hand I can understand that they try to make it simple as possible without cables, but cables ARE Reason or maybe was... I dunno anymore...

Who cares about every week a new one that superseded or outplayed the previous... Normal evolution... The first synth made beep and was big as a washing machine and today a smart watch makes better sounds...

I have to agree with this. The Players could have been implemented in a better way that was more advanced and created internal MIDI cables at the back of the Rack. That would have been awesome...

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

[Popey]

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

I appreciate your opinion and it is not incorrect as we all feel different things however i see players in a different way. I come from a dj background and use players (especially scales and chords) as a learning tool so that i understand music theory better and and thus can make music without fumbling about putting bum notes in and constantly moving them until it sounds right. If you had asked me what notes are in f minor 12 months ago my answer would have been "dunno mate" but now i have learnt and that is all down to players. Even when i was djing with vinyl i just learnt what tracks went together before i had even heard of mixing in key however since moving to cd/mp3 and buying digital versions of some of my tracks i often found the songs i mixed together were the same key. Suppose i am saying whether you learn to play an instrument like a guitar or within reason you are still learning to play an instrument even if your "instrument" is a pc. For that reason alone (pardon the pun) players have been very helpful for me.

[botnotbot]

I agree a little bit. I cannot fully follow the vision of the Players. I'd rather had seen a midi and or data cable, which devices could manipulate. The Players are a bit too limited compared to full midi.

On the other hand I can understand that they try to make it simple as possible without cables, but cables ARE Reason or maybe was... I dunno anymore...

Who cares about every week a new one that superseded or outplayed the previous... Normal evolution... The first synth made beep and was big as a washing machine and today a smart watch makes better sounds...

I have to agree with this. The Players could have been implemented in a better way that was more advanced and created internal MIDI cables at the back of the Rack. That would have been awesome...

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

So... players with MIDI cable = cool tool for pros, players without MIDI cable = toy for non-musician pretenders?

There was no way that they were going to put MIDI cables into their current rendering engine. Zero chance.

The attitude towards players being designed primarily for non-musicians is so ridiculous. Put garbage in, get garbage out. The rule is simple and hasn't changed at all. Does everyone who requests that the sequencer be able to lock into a specific scale qualify as a joke to you?

Perhaps people forget that arps built into synths were considered to be the end of musicianship? Or that the vast majority of great music out there was written by people who never had classical training? Or that the drum machine/step sequencer was a signal of the end of days? Name a single electronic club music genre whose pioneers were "musicians" ... Or the fact that 15 years ago people still had to hide the fact that they used computers for making their music in order to avoid being called pretenders (9th Wonder, for a well known hip hop example, I'm sure there were hundreds in the dance music genres).

Nevermind the fact that most classically trained orchestra players can't even improvise to save their lives, let alone compose.

[antic604]

There was no way that they were going to put MIDI cables into their current rendering engine. Zero chance.

Why? What does rendering have anything to do with it? You do understand they don't actually DRAW signals going through the cables and thus it doesn't matter what the cable represents.

[botnotbot]

There was no way that they were going to put MIDI cables into their current rendering engine. Zero chance.

Why? What does rendering have anything to do with it? You do understand they don't actually DRAW signals going through the cables and thus it doesn't matter what the cable represents.

Because it would involve writing the code to draw the actual MIDI cables. You don't add new features to a stack you plan on deprecating. You add them in the replacement stack. The improvements we saw in 10.x were all things that could be patched in with no or little (multi lane editing) code changes to the graphics engine.

[Hydrosonic]

Personally I think Players have been one of the best things to happen to this platform, and they are the only thing I use it for!

And as for #3 That is because PH limits the usefulness of their Products. This is why I usually only buy 3rd party things, I think PH now-adays SUCK at innovation. They just copy others and include a shit ethic to their design, which is limit it loads, to make it simple for new users!

[chimp_spanner]

Personally I think Players have been one of the best things to happen to this platform, and they are the only thing I use it for!

And as for #3 That is because PH limits the usefulness of their Products. This is why I usually only buy 3rd party things, I think PH now-adays SUCK at innovation. They just copy others and include a shit ethic to their design, which is limit it loads, to make it simple for new users!

In what way? Reason is already complex and deep at its core, if you want it to be. And I know that that’s something that perhaps we “pride” ourselves in sometimes but there are no medals for making things unnecessarily hard or erecting barriers to “keep out noobs”. For one, it’s terrible business. And the ease with which people expect to be able to do things is by no means an indicator of their skill level.

I do, among other things, sound design for trailer composers and composition for production music libraries. I’ve been doing music since I was 5, and I’m 35 now. I love patching, I love experimenting, but as time wears on (and deadlines become tighter and tighter) I just want fast results.

And I can also tell you, talking to composers who write for huge campaigns like Disney, Warner, AAA games, their impression of Reason is that it looks good but is too complicated, because they want to work fast. Of course I’m doing my part where I can and telling them that it’s easier to use than ever, but with that extra layer of complexity if they need it. And I hope I’ve managed to convert a few people!

So this idea that making Reason easy to use somehow makes Reason worse (when none of the advanced features have even been removed) just makes zero sense to me. I’ve been at a hotel for like 4 days for a media production show. Room was tiny, no space to set up a keyboard. Players have been a god send!

[altron]

> fruityloopification

Haven't cared about FL in ages. Is it now the source of the generative music evil? I only know that it still looks somewhat like a toy.

But about Reason Player REs I see it like this:

In the hands of a lazy producer, using Players creates shitty music (basically like 99% current mainstream music).
In the hands of a creative producer, using Players can also create interesting music.
Just like with any other instrument.

Arpeggiators have been used since the 80s for cool stuff.
Rack sequencers and note generators aren't much different from that.

[MrFigg]

Said it before...but I think using players in conjunction with effects, utilities and instruments to build totally crazy combi machines is great fun. That goes here and this goes there round and round and away we go. Love it.

[Hydrosonic]

Personally I think Players have been one of the best things to happen to this platform, and they are the only thing I use it for!

And as for #3 That is because PH limits the usefulness of their Products. This is why I usually only buy 3rd party things, I think PH now-adays SUCK at innovation. They just copy others and include a shit ethic to their design, which is limit it loads, to make it simple for new users!

In what way? Reason is already complex and deep at its core, if you want it to be. And I know that that’s something that perhaps we “pride” ourselves in sometimes but there are no medals for making things unnecessarily hard or erecting barriers to “keep out noobs”. For one, it’s terrible business. And the ease with which people expect to be able to do things is by no means an indicator of their skill level.

I do, among other things, sound design for trailer composers and composition for production music libraries. I’ve been doing music since I was 5, and I’m 35 now. I love patching, I love experimenting, but as time wears on (and deadlines become tighter and tighter) I just want fast results.

And I can also tell you, talking to composers who write for huge campaigns like Disney, Warner, AAA games, their impression of Reason is that it looks good but is too complicated, because they want to work fast. Of course I’m doing my part where I can and telling them that it’s easier to use than ever, but with that extra layer of complexity if they need it. And I hope I’ve managed to convert a few people!

So this idea that making Reason easy to use somehow makes Reason worse (when none of the advanced features have even been removed) just makes zero sense to me. I’ve been at a hotel for like 4 days for a media production show. Room was tiny, no space to set up a keyboard. Players have been a god send!

Don't get me wrong I totally understand what you are saying.
To be very honest the core of Reason is way to complicated, there is far too much that is too complicated about Reason. I never said I wanted complicated, but missing out basic things just means we have to think about other ways of doing it, which then makes it even more complicated. I find the work around for things is just a pain in the backside.

I like Players because I just use them with midi loopback and Rewire to route it to Ableton or Studio One and control my synths using the great Players, as they offer so much variety in what I do. I just wish I could keep it all in one box, but like you state many won't use Reason because of that. I haven't even gone past the basics with Reason as it sucks the life out of my creativity.

[Magnus]

I have to agree with this. The Players could have been implemented in a better way that was more advanced and created internal MIDI cables at the back of the Rack. That would have been awesome...

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

So... players with MIDI cable = cool tool for pros, players without MIDI cable = toy for non-musician pretenders?

There was no way that they were going to put MIDI cables into their current rendering engine. Zero chance.

The attitude towards players being designed primarily for non-musicians is so ridiculous. Put garbage in, get garbage out. The rule is simple and hasn't changed at all. Does everyone who requests that the sequencer be able to lock into a specific scale qualify as a joke to you?

Perhaps people forget that arps built into synths were considered to be the end of musicianship? Or that the vast majority of great music out there was written by people who never had classical training? Or that the drum machine/step sequencer was a signal of the end of days? Name a single electronic club music genre whose pioneers were "musicians" ... Or the fact that 15 years ago people still had to hide the fact that they used computers for making their music in order to avoid being called pretenders (9th Wonder, for a well known hip hop example, I'm sure there were hundreds in the dance music genres).

Nevermind the fact that most classically trained orchestra players can't even improvise to save their lives, let alone compose.

Some fair arguments. Maybe it's just my impression, but the Players feel dumbed down somehow and a missed opportunity.

The Reason approach, where it works best, is devices that have both beginner and advanced modes. Look at RV-7000's advanced expandable panel or even just the concept of flipping the rack around.

The Players just don't feel like they nicely integrate enough to me; the rack is crying out for MIDI cables to compliment Audio cables and CV cables. I didn't mind the lack of cables for RPG-8 back in 2007 but now there's all these different MIDI devices they should have properly integrated them into the rack paradigm.

[Enlightenspeed]

ok apology accepted...was going through rough time and took things wrong as usual...sorry...I did not mean to call you out.or anything... players seem to confuse me a tad... mever mentiomed your name but that of course did not work... I also apologize ... while this was happening broke my arm bady(still in recovery mode... then my mother dies from long and rerrible battle with cancer...It all likely bothered me more then it should have,... hope you make many sales sir... will likely buy them some time as I have a re addiction... sorry I took you wrong and stopped testing because of it. I understand your reasons. I was likely out of my mind on pain meds... morphine knocks me out big time. I would try to work on a song... half hour goes by listening to same section of song over and over... came out of nodding out and realized time for bed lol... that all said I was the ass.

I'm sorry to hear about your troubles. I guess we can only hope that fate is a little kinder to you in future.

Take care,
Brian

[antic604]

...Players feel dumbed down somehow and a missed opportunity.

The Reason approach, where it works best, is devices that have both beginner and advanced modes. Look at RV-7000's advanced expandable panel or even just the concept of flipping the rack around.

The Players just don't feel like they nicely integrate enough to me...

You hit the nail on the head!

Just look at the past devices: Thor was a synthesizer, sequencer and FX. Pulsar was an LFO and synth, Pulveriser was a distortion, compressor, filter and envelope follower, Synchronous was a CV generator / MSEG and a multi-FX. And so on and so on...

[Oquasec]

Meh. Reason is built in a way that you can either use or not use those.

[ltbrunt00]

Dual Arpeggio is a work horse for me. Like everything else in life you will have some good devices, some OK ones and some not so great.

[dioxide]

I made a feature suggestion waaaay back for MIDI Inserts on the sequencer tracks. Players fulfils on that. Basically you've got to think of Players as an extension of the sequencer, that live in the Rack. The fact that third parties can create their own and they can also have CV outputs just expands on the possibilities.

I will say though that I think PH's Players have been a let down so far. Their drum sequencer isn't a patch on Redrum, the Dual Arp isn't as good mono arp as RPG-8 and PH haven't put together a Matrix Player. These devices are all ancient in software terms, yet PH have never bettered them. Still though, happily, third parties are able to make Players, so we have stuff like Robotic Bean's excellent Sequences, so I still have hope.

[reggie1979]

This reminds me of olden days, when people said using loops is not music

[Boombastix]

"Players" is such misnomer. It literally should be call Midi-Devices or Midi-Tools. I use them all the time. The simplest, just to change the octave of incoming notes. Perfect to throw in as you audition patches and have a looped midi clip.
Scales and chords are great too, especially when programming a patch that is supposed to be played as a chord. Just hit one note and tweak the knobs until the sounds is dialed in for, say, a 5 note chord.
Nothing says you MUST use them to compose, that is very optional

[Re8et]

Players should have more CV ins and outs

100% agree.
I would rather buy an Re with cv's than a Player that makes me struggle for to make basic stuff like a seq reset, or master clock in, or just changing scales on the fly, as in PSQ, Kron, Korde, or Cv tuner, even if it takes the combinator part, but still much more useful for what I do than any of the new players, given I haven't tried some of the newest, like chord creator, things might be changing, but I feel like the "old" one might be worth get an upgrade, especially the Quad generator, but also the Euclidean Rythmn.. external clock input....

And internal routing matrixes if I may add.

[VariableX]

I luv them.
At the very least they are helping me play in key and modes. But the with the Quad note player and the Midi Computer from Static Cling anything can happen

[EdGrip]

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

We're all non-musicians who want to pretend we're musicians more, old son.

[Magnus]

Instead I think they're just being used as a marketing tool to make Reason appeal to non-musicians who want to pretend they're musicians more...

We're all non-musicians who want to pretend we're musicians more, old son.

Well yes, none of us are Mozart. But still, there are degrees of technicality. It's all part of a wider trend that smartphones seemed to help usher in; of making highly technical things accessible to as broad a range of people as possible. The problem is that something does get lost during that catering for the lowest common denominator.