Unpopular opinion: "Players" are the worst feature of Reason

[chaosroyale]

Some very interesting responses.

I stick by the statement that it breaks the rack paradigm though. You literally cannot see which instrument a player is controlling when your rack is a stack of combinators. Nor can you split outputs from one player to multiple devices while doing different CV tricks to them etc.

Generative music > yeah, as a John Cage fan I should have given credit where it was due. I just have a natural aversion to basic things like "chord players" - just spend 15 minutes learning some music theory you lazy fucks!! But point taken.

It is still early days, so am sure there will be some amazingly creative player ideas in the future from peeps like Lectric Panda and so on.

However, I gotta say - "It works just like FL Studio or Cubase" .....depends how far you want to go down that road. Reason as an FL Studio clone loses any meaning to exist. The good things about Reason are that it isn't like FL Studio. Anyone who wants to use FL studio can and will use that instead.

[EpiGenetik]

1: They break the Rack paradigm. You cannot see what a player is controlling, or use the clever routing that Reason is famous for.

2: They mostly offer features that should be part of the MIDI toolset of the sequencer, which needs updating.

3: Every week another new player comes out including the feature set of older players, making your previous purchases redundant.

4: They are part of the fruityloopification of music - making everything generic, automated, conservative and boring.

1. Nonsense (first bit), Nonsense (second bit), True for now but it's improving constantly (Third bit)
2. Arguably a fair point, but a little blind to the reality of software development.
3. Welcome to technology.
4. Nonsense.

[chimp_spanner]

Players don’t break the paradigm any more than MIDI/sequencer tracks do. If PH developed a Cubase style track inspector, Players probably could’ve gone there? But then they’d be outside of the rack, meaning you’d have to switch between the rack and the sequencer to adjust parameters *and* you couldn’t use CV (which players can also have; there are many on the store already).

So really there was no other way to do this without either adding MORE CV cables (which casual users or people not into the modular stuff would find a turn off), or making MIDI a different type of cable.

So I think they work fine. Mix channels break the paradigm also but there’s no way around this that would make for a clean or usable system.

[Timmy Crowne]

I like Players and am always trying to find new ways of using them for composition. Kompulsion is a staple of my rack now. But I agree that your points bring up some serious flaws that if addressed would improve Reason dramatically.

1. Players should be able to address multiple instrument devices via cables or a modulation matrix. Using a Player to run a Combinator only works until you want to address multiple Combinators or even your whole arrangement. Adding CV Player Taps works, but it would nice if this ability was native since every addition to Rack increases scrolling and searching time. Things add up quickly.

2. If the Props are not planning to improve Reason’s sequencer because Players exist, that’s not good. Players then become workarounds for sequencer limitations. That’s adding layers of complexity instead of simplicity with respect to user experience. Hard to sell, “yeah our sequencer is ancient but you could pay 200 bucks to add good stuff probably.”

3. There is a lot of redundancy in the Players market. I think it’s good because we’ll see awesome innovative stuff like Kompulsion, but we’ll also see a lot of overlap because these new devices are basically patching up holes in the sequencer. If the core of Reason was stronger, RE devs could specialize on truly unique stuff.

4. Everything in Reason is fruityloopification when compared to a studio full of synths, which is fruityloopification when compared to a room full of musicians, which is fruityloopification when compared to an orchestra playing Beethoven. The creativity or lack thereof comes from me, the user.

[Spaceship]

Players should have more CV ins and outs

[cognitive]

I like the players, although I do understand the issue with the player category arms race. "Darn it, I just paid $69 for this *insert player category here* and another one with more/better features just popped up in the shop."

So far, I've dodged that bullet and am happy with my player purchases.

I love getting into the weeds with generative music using non-player devices like Panda's PSQ, but I also like dropping in a Quad Note Generator to take a different workflow approach generative music, even though there is some overlap between the two in terms of intended use. But that's a device with Panda's fingerprint as well.

Did I mention that I really like Panda devices? RND and Kompulsion being another couple of favorites.

[djadalaide]

I like the players, although I do understand the issue with the player category arms race. "Darn it, I just paid $69 for this *insert player category here* and another one with more/better features just popped up in the shop."

So far, I've dodged that bullet and am happy with my player purchases.

I love getting into the weeds with generative music using non-player devices like Panda's PSQ, but I also like dropping in a Quad Note Generator to take a different workflow approach generative music, even though there is some overlap between the two in terms of intended use. But that's a device with Panda's fingerprint as well.

Did I mention that I really like Panda devices? RND and Kompulsion being another couple of favorites.

I made an arranger out of propulsion recently, all it does is unmute mixer channels using the gate signal, and each step is 8 or 16 bars long. I doubt i would be having as much fun without Lectric Panda in the rack.

I'm a big fan of cv, and so far i've been able to get players to work well with it although the lack of cv inputs as said above is a pain, at least we have ways of mapping params using the combinator inputs.

[chaosroyale]

Timmy Crowne: you put that much better than my oversimplistic original post.
chimp spanner, cognitive, etc: lots of good points.

Maybe I'll see the light as the "player" paradigm and tech evolves, even if it's not aimed at me.

[boingy]

I think we're getting a bit swamped by players atm. Lots of them seem to be doing a similar job or overlap with each other. In fact I think the whole Reason ecosystem has become a bit muddled. On the one hand it's great to have lots of choice in the shop but on the other it could be very overwhelming to newcomers. There is no doubt that much of the player functionality could and should be built-in to the sequencer.

I worry that Reason is starting to feel like one of those phone apps where half the functionality is in add-ons being sold in the app store rather than in the main app.

[mon]

I worry that Reason is starting to feel like one of those phone apps where half the functionality is in add-ons being sold in the app store rather than in the main app.

Maybe PH are preparing for porting the RE shop to the VST world. If it happens encapsulated in combinator, which seems the most logical way to do it, the diversity of Players controlling the synths inside would be of great value.

[Ermitage]

I think we're getting a bit swamped by players atm. Lots of them seem to be doing a similar job or overlap with each other. In fact I think the whole Reason ecosystem has become a bit muddled. On the one hand it's great to have lots of choice in the shop but on the other it could be very overwhelming to newcomers. There is no doubt that much of the player functionality could and should be built-in to the sequencer.

I worry that Reason is starting to feel like one of those phone apps where half the functionality is in add-ons being sold in the app store rather than in the main app.

I think they need to be more ambitious when it comes to their business model. Maybe they should offer a RE Treasure chest that you can buy for 99€. You don't know what is in it; it might be Antidote, it might be 4 refills. Who knows? Either way, that is very exciting and probably worth considering.

[motuscott]

Cool stuff, him and Panda would get along just fine I assume

Hah, craft up an oblique strategies RE.

Instabuy!
especially from you, Panda

[djadalaide]

I worry that Reason is starting to feel like one of those phone apps where half the functionality is in add-ons being sold in the app store rather than in the main app.

Maybe PH are preparing for porting the RE shop to the VST world. If it happens encapsulated in combinator, which seems the most logical way to do it, the diversity of Players controlling the synths inside would be of great value.

As long as i don't have to pay 9.99 for each device i want to use
(referring to reason compact if you don't get the joke!)

[mon]

Maybe PH are preparing for porting the RE shop to the VST world. If it happens encapsulated in combinator, which seems the most logical way to do it, the diversity of Players controlling the synths inside would be of great value.

As long as i don't have to pay 9.99 for each device i want to use
(referring to reason compact if you don't get the joke!)

I got it but not as joke. Bought the three instruments already Actually I am hoping for something like Europa VST - free for existing RE owners.

[Luxuria]

I think they need to be more ambitious when it comes to their business model. Maybe they should offer a RE Treasure chest that you can buy for 99€. You don't know what is in it; it might be Antidote, it might be 4 refills. Who knows? Either way, that is very exciting and probably worth considering.

No! No! No! We don't want what you are essentially describing as "loot boxes" in this industry. It's more and more clear it shouldn't belong in the gaming industry either. It's gambling.

[Luxuria]

A big reason I'm starting to resent the company is because this situation resembles a similar one from their past.

Community wants VST support.
PHeads says no, releases RE's. Milks it for as long as they can and eventually releases VST support.

Community wants MIDI based VSTs.
PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

[boingy]

I think they need to be more ambitious when it comes to their business model. Maybe they should offer a RE Treasure chest that you can buy for 99€. You don't know what is in it; it might be Antidote, it might be 4 refills. Who knows? Either way, that is very exciting and probably worth considering.

No! No! No! We don't want what you are essentially describing as "loot boxes" in this industry. It's more and more clear it shouldn't belong in the gaming industry either. It's gambling.

Hehe " Dammit, another worthless reward voucher and a hat I already have"...

[moneykube]

just have not played with players enough to decide if I like them or not... it is on my to do list lol

[mcatalao]

TBH i've had this kind of thinking when i first saw players, but came to change my mind over the time.... Maybe because on the beginning they looked a bit toyish and some of them looked like they were going to take down musicianship.

There are players i don't like and there are others i really like. They help me do truly inspirational stuff when on writers/composers block.

For example, i really like using the sequencer like players for drums and even other stuff, and i really like the Lectric Panda's stuff in arpeggio mode.
I don't like so much the auto generative stuff.

Still these are very creative tools, they are more than simple midi filters, or sequencer tools. They are applicable live, can be committed to the sequencer and reapplied.

My only complain about some of the players, is that they are a bit overpriced. Paying 50 or 60 eur for something that "feels" like a midi filter is a bit over the top IMHO.

[moneykube]

just have not played with players enough to decide if I like them or not... it is on my to do list lol

also... I tried to beta test 3 players... when I asked for a manual... the response was should be self explanitory... this to me was a rude remark as I am new to players... so... I bailed on the beta test looking for bugs in devices with no manuals... because WE ALL KNOW HOW THEY WORK... sad... left a bad taste in my mouth... I refuse to help arrogant people ... been on many beta tests... all were kind and helpful... but this response out of line.... I see they are in the shop now... won't be buying them either and refuse to mention the companies name... u want help... don't act like an ass.

[antic604]

PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

Is there actually a VST that works like PolyStep? Genuine question, because I have never really "researched" that market. When QNG came out I briefly searched for VST equivalent and found Riffer and MIDI Madness but neither was as intuitive as QNG - the latter is a bit more powerful as it can also generate chords, but damn it's ugly and difficult to set up.

[guitfnky]

I like the players, although I do understand the issue with the player category arms race. "Darn it, I just paid $69 for this *insert player category here* and another one with more/better features just popped up in the shop."

I can see how that could be frustrating, but I think that’s got more to do with people’s impatience and always wanting/expecting something new, than anything else. for just about every new halfway decent looking RE that gets released (especially Players), there are people who go into the corresponding thread, sing its praises, and hail it an insta-buy must-have.

I get the excitement (I feel it too), but keeping your true musical needs in perspective goes a long way towards avoiding these sorts of “dangit, if only I’d waited” moments.

[artotaku]

A big reason I'm starting to resent the company is because this situation resembles a similar one from their past.

Community wants VST support.
PHeads says no, releases RE's. Milks it for as long as they can and eventually releases VST support.

Community wants MIDI based VSTs.
PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

I don´t know. Not every decision regarding a product can solely made to "milk" the customer. There are also technical implications. A good CTO should intervene if the sales people have "funny" ideas to gain more profit but it could harm the overall architecture. It must also fit in the overall UI and must feel right. So it seems quite natural to me that REs and in a follow-up players came first because they tightly fit in the rack. So with REs you have both, fitting the rack and gain more profit.
Still, VST integration feels a bit strange to me in Reason so this may have been a concession to the high demand of people wanting it.

[Luxuria]

PHeads doesn't say anything this time around. Releases players as their own version of MIDI VSTs. Milks their market competition free and eventually in the future will release an update for MIDI based VSTs.

Is there actually a VST that works like PolyStep? Genuine question, because I have never really "researched" that market. When QNG came out I briefly searched for VST equivalent and found Riffer and MIDI Madness but neither was as intuitive as QNG - the latter is a bit more powerful as it can also generate chords, but damn it's ugly and difficult to set up.

Not that I'm aware of. Most will reply back with: "Why not just use the main sequencer then?"

It really is a unique device that blends together different features while maintaining a clear and easy to understand workflow.

PHeads are ahead of the game when it comes to devices for the non-musician.

[botnotbot]

PHeads are ahead of the game when it comes to devices for the non-musician.

With this snobbish attitude why on earth are you complaining about the lack of MIDI VST support?