Why aren't PH updating their devices (case for Players)?

[antic604]

This is not (really) about finally getting a refreshed Combinator or Thor2, but more about updating the devices from the same *family* to be on par features-wise.

What I mean?

For instance have a look at PH's recent Player devices: Drum Sequencer (DS), Quad Note Generator (QNG) and PolyStep Sequencer (PSS) - they all are supposed to serve a slightly different functions, providing rhythm, incidental background stuff (IMO, at least) and main melodies / riffs / chords respectively. And that's all great. But they were all released at different moments in time, making the subsequent devices more complete and thought through than the ones earlier in the line. For instance:
- DS could use Variations introduced in PSS, as well as CV lines for even more control over the beat,
- QNG could use Patterns, where each of them would store different settings for the ever-evolving random stream of notes (like Vary, Spread, Shift, [note] Pattern, etc.) and perhaps a - randomised? - CV lines as well,
- PPS could use the more fine-tuned randomisation controls from QNG, so that you can decide how dense or spreaded the generated notes or parameters you want to be,

...and so on. But I'm pretty sure, when we look back on those Players in two years time they'll still be at v1 and nothing will be added or improved.

Most 3rd party RE devs update their devices constantly, sometimes so much that it's like a completely new version. PH on the other hand - with few exceptions that I'm aware of like Dr. OctoRex, RV-7k or Parsec - subscribe to the one-and-done kind of policy.

Why?

[MrFigg]

Wondered that very thing myself a couple of days ago whilst playing with Polar and some other early Propellerheads REs. No updates or new features. At the most just minor bug fixes. Maybe they just figure that the product they released was perfect as it was and is.

[antic604]

Maybe they just figure that the product they released was perfect as it was and is.

Doubt that. My only explanation is they see their devices as examples to pave the way for 3rd party devs - "look what you can do, now make it better". The problem is we end up with multiple devices doing similar things each one excelling in something, but none of them being feature-complete...

But I guess that's life in general and you can see this in almost everything - other music software (DAWs, VSTs), hardware synths, cars, jobs, ...women

[MrFigg]

I hear you. I’ve bought REs because of a feature set only to see a new RE come out a few weeks or even days later which does the same but more and then 2 days after that a new development etc. Obviously I know the “if you waited for the next thing” mentality means I’d never buy anything but the fact that devices which do pretty much exactly the same thing are appearing at a rate of knots one after the other is a bit frustrating to me as a consumer.

[VariableX]

Plan something properly you shouldn't need to do much more than the odd bug fix after. Obv there will be exceptions to the rule.
What i'm wondering is why Props need to 'Outsource' to Lectric Panda, is this there new business model? Outsourcing the programming?

[Kategra]

I think the PH strategy is to release as many devices as they possibly can with an OK or greater quality & some medium feature set.. no matter if the feature sets greatly overlap, people still buy this model.. we already have 50 compressors, EQs, synths, why not 50 players that greatly overlap in feature set?

Probably the next RE types will be Abstract Audio devices, that don't need cables to process audio, and then you buy again 50 compressors, EQs, synths that greatly overlap with what you already have, but still add 10% new features that you don't get in the classic devices /RE. And it's OK if people buy it, right?

I guess new REs looks better than just updates in the PH Shop. I think it's easier to show the value of new paid device instead of a paid update.

Which leaves me to believe, that instead of upgrading the Reason Sequencer to do all that stuff that the players do (this is the sequencer man job right? to play midi notes, audio and automation, right?) develop 10 players, give 5 free 5 paid and look cool in the mean time of how much you deliver.

I do use Scales and Chords when I'm to lazy to patch AutoArp, but I use these because the Reason Sequencer is lacking these (industry standard by now?) features.

If they would ask me what I want... put these middle of the road paradigm (no cables WiFi rack called Players) on the back log. I would like for PH to focus on the Sequencer and complete it with present day tech (it's 2019 right?)

[antic604]

What i'm wondering is why Props need to 'Outsource' to Lectric Panda, is this there new business model? Outsourcing the programming?

My take is that Panda has brilliant ideas and is able to execute them, but he's coming short(ish) in design department. Don't get me wrong, I love PSQ, Korde/Propulsion or Nostromo but they're not immediately easy to grasp and use - they're overwhelming, super complex and elaborate. He's sort of mad genius

His two collabs with PH on the other hand have a very clear UI/UX that you can understand just by looking at them and reading the promotional text - they're perhaps not as deep as Panda's own devices, but likely cover everything 90% of potential users require.

I guess PH's design + Panda's coding (and I'm sure he had at least some influence on the feature-set as well) is perhaps the best of both worlds

[antic604]

I think the PH strategy is to release as many devices as they possibly can with an OK or greater quality & some medium feature set.. no matter if the feature sets greatly overlap, people still buy this model.. we already have 50 compressors, EQs, synths, why not 50 players that greatly overlap in feature set?

Probably the next RE types will be Abstract Audio devices, that don't need cables to process audio, and then you buy again 50 compressors, EQs, synths that greatly overlap with what you already have, but still add 10% new features that you don't get in the classic devices /RE. And it's OK if people buy it, right?

I guess new REs looks better than just updates in the PH Shop. I think it's easier to show the value of new paid device instead of a paid update.

Which leaves me to believe, that instead of upgrading the Reason Sequencer to do all that stuff that the players do (this is the sequencer man job right? to play midi notes, audio and automation, right?) develop 10 players, give 5 free 5 paid and look cool in the mean time of how much you deliver.

I hear you from the business perspective, but PH can't milk their customer base infinitely...

(Or can it?! Looking at my RE order history since I got Reason in late 2017... )

[Loque]

You ask why? Here is the answer: Money

[antic604]

You ask why? Here is the answer: Money

I won't believe it's THAT simple

[Loque]

You ask why? Here is the answer: Money

I won't believe it's THAT simple

Why update Thor if you can introduce a new Synth?

Why update a stock Player, if you can sell a new one for 69 bucks?

This is not bashing against PH, its normal business. Do you ever thought, why a company sells 10 different compressors instead just one where you can change the mode? Ok, FabFilter has only one compressor, where you can change the mode, but just look at McDSP as an example or Waves and all those companies... Or how many reverbs some companies have in their arsenal? Same goes for Synths, just look at Rob Papen - cool stuff, but do i really need 10 synths? Why are they not just in one?

[MrFigg]

I won't believe it's THAT simple

Why update Thor if you can introduce a new Synth?

Why update a stock Player, if you can sell a new one for 69 bucks?

This is not bashing against PH, its normal business. Do you ever thought, why a company sells 10 different compressors instead just one where you can change the mode? Ok, FabFilter has only one compressor, where you can change the mode, but just look at McDSP as an example or Waves and all those companies... Or how many reverbs some companies have in their arsenal? Same goes for Synths, just look at Rob Papen - cool stuff, but do i really need 10 synths? Why are they not just in one?

Aaaaah. But Rob Papen, as you know, sells his whole collection of synths and effects for €99 (to those who already have 4 products) and then even adds more for free. What a guy .

Edit: as regards one synth to rule them all...remember this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7511445&hilit=One+s ... e+them+all

[antic604]

I won't believe it's THAT simple

Why update Thor if you can introduce a new Synth?

Why update a stock Player, if you can sell a new one for 69 bucks?

This is not bashing against PH, its normal business. Do you ever thought, why a company sells 10 different compressors instead just one where you can change the mode? Ok, FabFilter has only one compressor, where you can change the mode, but just look at McDSP as an example or Waves and all those companies... Or how many reverbs some companies have in their arsenal? Same goes for Synths, just look at Rob Papen - cool stuff, but do i really need 10 synths? Why are they not just in one?

I hope you understand that I wasn't serious and I do get the business angle (though 3 smileys were enough ).

Still, it's a good business practice to provide basic maintenance for your products, i.e. fill obvious gaps and add (small) improvements when possible and desired. This was the reason why I got Sequences, Euclidean and Resonans from Robotic Bean, because based on their track record (just look at Step Note Sequencer!) I can be certain they'll be further developed, even if - right now - they might be lacking here & there.

[Loque]

Why update Thor if you can introduce a new Synth?

Why update a stock Player, if you can sell a new one for 69 bucks?

This is not bashing against PH, its normal business. Do you ever thought, why a company sells 10 different compressors instead just one where you can change the mode? Ok, FabFilter has only one compressor, where you can change the mode, but just look at McDSP as an example or Waves and all those companies... Or how many reverbs some companies have in their arsenal? Same goes for Synths, just look at Rob Papen - cool stuff, but do i really need 10 synths? Why are they not just in one?

Aaaaah. But Rob Papen, as you know, sells his whole collection of synths and effects for €99 (to those who already have 4 products) and then even adds more for free. What a guy .

Edit: as regards one synth to rule them all...remember this thread?
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7511445&hilit=One+s ... e+them+all

Yea, thats tru. But i have 10 GUIs i need to understand.

[Loque]

Why update Thor if you can introduce a new Synth?

Why update a stock Player, if you can sell a new one for 69 bucks?

This is not bashing against PH, its normal business. Do you ever thought, why a company sells 10 different compressors instead just one where you can change the mode? Ok, FabFilter has only one compressor, where you can change the mode, but just look at McDSP as an example or Waves and all those companies... Or how many reverbs some companies have in their arsenal? Same goes for Synths, just look at Rob Papen - cool stuff, but do i really need 10 synths? Why are they not just in one?

I hope you understand that I wasn't serious and I do get the business angle (though 3 smileys were enough ).

Still, it's a good business practice to provide basic maintenance for your products, i.e. fill obvious gaps and add (small) improvements when possible and desired. This was the reason why I got Sequences, Euclidean and Resonans from Robotic Bean, because based on their track record (just look at Step Note Sequencer!) I can be certain they'll be further developed, even if - right now - they might be lacking here & there.

I understood your wink, but in the same time i raged about it I appreciate that some devs evolve their products and i avoid devs/companies where i get the feeling they want to rob me (ridiculous update prices/policies or things like 299€ for a simple fx which is than greatly reduced to 59€ and is still 30 bucks too much compared to other companies' products - just as an example).

[VariableX]

What i'm wondering is why Props need to 'Outsource' to Lectric Panda, is this there new business model? Outsourcing the programming?

My take is that Panda has brilliant ideas and is able to execute them, but he's coming short(ish) in design department. Don't get me wrong, I love PSQ, Korde/Propulsion or Nostromo but they're not immediately easy to grasp and use - they're overwhelming, super complex and elaborate. He's sort of mad genius

His two collabs with PH on the other hand have a very clear UI/UX that you can understand just by looking at them and reading the promotional text - they're perhaps not as deep as Panda's own devices, but likely cover everything 90% of potential users require.

I guess PH's design + Panda's coding (and I'm sure he had at least some influence on the feature-set as well) is perhaps the best of both worlds

If its Lectric Pandas idea and he approaches Props with it, what you said makes sense. Props design the gui and fine tune the functionality and Lectric implements it.

But if its all Props idea and they approach the Panda to implement it, why? Do they not have an employee capable themselves?

Outside of all that I love Lectric Pandas stuff and own lots of it!

[antic604]

But if its all Props idea and they approach the Panda to implement it, why? Do they not have an employee capable themselves?

Because it's beneficial for both parties?

[Loque]

But if its all Props idea and they approach the Panda to implement it, why? Do they not have an employee capable themselves?

They have the money, but not the ppl...

[buddard]

Just a side note, I don't mean to single anyone out, it's just a general observation that I've made:

I find it both funny and sad that the Props are always damned either way: If they develop their own REs in-house, people are all over them like "Why u do this instead of adding automation curvz to Reason!!1!", and if they then outsource RE coding so that they can focus their own resources on Reason, then you have this other group of people putting them down for not coding their REs themselves... They simply can't win!

[antic604]

Just a side note, I don't mean to single anyone out, it's just a general observation that I've made:

I find it both funny and sad that the Props are always damned either way: If they develop their own REs in-house, people are all over them like "Why u do this instead of adding automation curvz to Reason!!1!", and if they then outsource RE coding so that they can focus their own resources on Reason, then you have this other group of people putting them down for not coding their REs themselves... They simply can't win!

Kudos for defending PH in this particular moment for you!

[diminished]

Just a side note, I don't mean to single anyone out, it's just a general observation that I've made:

I find it both funny and sad that the Props are always damned either way: If they develop their own REs in-house, people are all over them like "Why u do this instead of adding automation curvz to Reason!!1!", and if they then outsource RE coding so that they can focus their own resources on Reason, then you have this other group of people putting them down for not coding their REs themselves... They simply can't win!

Yeah us Reason users are generally like cliché strict asian parents. "WHAT? ONLY AN A? WHY NO A+??? WE WILL ABANDON YOU" while in fact it's us who are dependant on the Props (which is why we want them to treat us good, you know.)
Anyway discussing stuff like that is pathetic. Now all go back to your holes and make music or earn money for more Rack Extensions.

Allow me the roast, mate:

They simply can't win!

... just like Sequences against PSS!
BAM!

[buddard]

Allow me the roast, mate:

They simply can't win!

... just like Sequences against PSS!
BAM!

[diminished]

Allow me the roast, mate:


... just like Sequences against PSS!
BAM!

That's the spirit!!

[antic604]

I'll take you up on that!

[sdst]

now with vst I dont care of the instruments

but the combinator really needs an update