Draw near, Selig, Panda and Lab:One

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EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

04 Jun 2019

Nearer still....

Hello.
What I'd like to do is this:
I'd like to be able to use one instance of SideChain ReAction Enveloper, and have the envelope CV out from it drive simple gain utilities all over the rack - use the envelope generator to create ducking effects wherever I like by modulating the fader of a Selig Gain or a Panda AMP. SCRA is a great envelope shaper, but it uses them CPUs - and, another good reason to use one instance is to tweak just one envelope to affect the sidechain ducking shape of multiple tracks.

But, it's not that simple. The bipolar out of the SCRA creates massive gain spikes in those two REs. The Unipolar out doesn't really work for this purpose, I think because it's on the positive side rather than the negative. I can only get workable results using AMP, with SCRA's output in Unipolar mode, but the only way to vary the ducking depth is to turn the VCA fader down, with max "ducking" achieved by setting the VCA fader at -infinity dB and having the CV signal modulate it UP from there. Obviously it would be better to have the VCA fader up, and have the CV signal modulate it DOWN from there.

Selig Gain won't play nicely with SCRA no matter what I do.

So
SCRA: Sidechaining is in the name of the device, so we should be able to use it to generate sidechain ducking CV signals that are usable with gain utilities.

Selig and Panda: What I'd love to see is the option to have the CV signal from SCRA (or Pump, or any other envelope generator) modulate the VCA fader downwards from 0dB towards -infinity dB. Simple modulation between unity gain and off, rather than modulation between unity gain and breaking my ears.

What would also be really really lovely is the option to modulate the depth of the ducking effect via CV or automation! Without adding another device. So I could, for instance, modulate the depth of the ducking over the course of a bar or two with, say, an LFO:
As I mentioned, the VCA fader on AMP can be used to vary the depth of the ducking effect by manually moving the fader - but I can't CV the same fader move to achieve LFO modulation of the effect because that CV in is already being used by the ducking signal from SCRA. I'd like to somehow have my cake and eat it in that regard, without having to use a Selig Gain to trim the ducking CV.

Basically, I was having a frustrating old time there. I think that gain utilities and envelope generators should be the easiest, most CPU efficient and most versatile way to achieve multi-track sidechain pumping effects that are easy to tweak. I have devices in the rack that should do it, but I can't.

Please make it all lovely, guys! Lovely, and simple.

Thanks!

- Ed

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

04 Jun 2019

How about a SCRE "gain slave" RE that's just audio in and out, a CV input that you connect to the SCRE, and a CV-able and automatable "depth" knob on the front? It could have a little meter display just so you can see at a glance what it's up to.

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Boombastix
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Location: Bay Area, CA

04 Jun 2019

I can do this with Pump and Selig or kHs Gain. I use Pump CV 'Neg' out so the value goes between -127 and 0. Check your CV values...
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rcbuse
RE Developer
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04 Jun 2019

I would suggest throwing a Janitor on those CV lines.
https://www.propellerheads.com/shop/rac ... cv-shaper/
Thats really going to give you some flexibility to bang those CV values into whatever range you want. You can also add some extra decay or modulate the depth like you wanted.

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

05 Jun 2019

Thanks, Panda! I forgot Janitor!

Image

It sounds like the simplest solution is a negative CV switch on SCRE. Could that happen?

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LABONERECORDINGS
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05 Jun 2019

Can get our code monkeys to take a look sure ;)
But, it's not that simple. The bipolar out of the SCRA creates massive gain spikes in those two REs. The Unipolar out doesn't really work for this purpose, I think because it's on the positive side rather than the negative. I can only get workable results using AMP, with SCRA's output in Unipolar mode, but the only way to vary the ducking depth is to turn the VCA fader down, with max "ducking" achieved by setting the VCA fader at -infinity dB and having the CV signal modulate it UP from there. Obviously it would be better to have the VCA fader up, and have the CV signal modulate it DOWN from there.
You tried CV out to Spider CV and use the invert CV socket there? as a workaround for what you need? not as elegant as an all in one but an option none the less. Also you could adjust the CV level from SCRA (or SCRE as we call it), by feeding from CV out of SCRE into Spider CV merge in and control the trim input, then take the output of that and feed it to the CV split, and use the invert socket, so you can do 50% trim and you get half the negative CV level

A 3rd option.... see this Combi, take the CV from the Spider on the left and conenct that to SCRE output, then the Spider Cv on the right take that CV and put it to the device. Now the signal flow goes from SCRE to Combi-Thor and Rotary 1 can determine the 'strength' and polarity of the CV level. When Rotary 1 is centre there is no effect. This way you can set to the right (positive) to turn up CV values to gain riders etc, or turn Rotary 1 to the left (negative polarity) to change the gain down. Just leaves it as an option and it shouldn't affect current DSP load on your project adding in 1x Thor in a combi for CV purposes (oscs are off, filters off).http://LAB-ONE-RECORDINGS.CO.UK/REASONT ... SCALER.cmb

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mjxl
Posts: 600
Joined: 23 Nov 2018

05 Jun 2019

LABONERECORDINGS wrote:
05 Jun 2019
Can get our code monkeys to take a look sure ;)
Can we get Envelope curves like in Europa/Grain while at it (being able to freely bend the curves) ? :mrgreen: :D
I bought SCRE bundle the other day, and while I like it a lot, I prefer making "complex" patterns in Europa because of those .
The amount of points is really sufficient, but the ability to bend the curves to our own liking would be epic (is that something that came in a newer SDK?)

I also have Frame, which does kinda the same, but it's resolution is low (16 steps) and it doesn't cut it to make the sharpest curves I want.

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LABONERECORDINGS
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Location: UK
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05 Jun 2019

mjxl wrote:
05 Jun 2019
LABONERECORDINGS wrote:
05 Jun 2019
Can get our code monkeys to take a look sure ;)
Can we get Envelope curves like in Europa/Grain while at it (being able to freely bend the curves) ? :mrgreen: :D
I bought SCRE bundle the other day, and while I like it a lot, I prefer making "complex" patterns in Europa because of those .
The amount of points is really sufficient, but the ability to bend the curves to our own liking would be epic (is that something that came in a newer SDK?)

I also have Frame, which does kinda the same, but it's resolution is low (16 steps) and it doesn't cut it to make the sharpest curves I want.
Will feed the crew their favourite fruit.. they can be a feisty bunch, and while they're in a passive state we'll feed them the extra notes to see what can be done. No promises as we have to be sure it's backwards compatible

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mjxl
Posts: 600
Joined: 23 Nov 2018

05 Jun 2019

LABONERECORDINGS wrote:
05 Jun 2019
mjxl wrote:
05 Jun 2019


Can we get Envelope curves like in Europa/Grain while at it (being able to freely bend the curves) ? :mrgreen: :D
I bought SCRE bundle the other day, and while I like it a lot, I prefer making "complex" patterns in Europa because of those .
The amount of points is really sufficient, but the ability to bend the curves to our own liking would be epic (is that something that came in a newer SDK?)

I also have Frame, which does kinda the same, but it's resolution is low (16 steps) and it doesn't cut it to make the sharpest curves I want.
Will feed the crew their favourite fruit.. they can be a feisty bunch, and while they're in a passive state we'll feed them the extra notes to see what can be done. No promises as we have to be sure it's backwards compatible
That's understandable, thanks for the consideration :thumbs_up:

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

05 Jun 2019

Right, I've had a bit of an experiment.

Using the Inverted Out socket on a Spider doesn't work because it just turns the whole envelope upside down - i.e. it becomes like a kick-triggered gate.

So what I've got now is:

SCRE > Janitor (with Offset set to -1.000 to move the signal range between -64 and zero) > Lolth CV Splitter > Panda AMP (or kHs or Selig Gain).

Works perfectly, and the Attack and Decay knobs on Janitor are a perfect quick way to tune the shape of the ducking effect. But it would still be much appreciated if the CV could be made to come out of SCRE ready to ride gains.

Image

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LABONERECORDINGS
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05 Jun 2019

Nice.... quick check though.. did you invert CV on Spider when SCRE was in unipolar mode? if in Bipolar then yes that would invert the envelope, but if in unipolar mode, that should flip the +1 to -1 and zero stays as zero? ;)

But yes let us whip dem coders we have into shape, as they have been hibernating far too long....

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

05 Jun 2019

...no, the Spider Invert Out seems to invert the envelope under all circumstances - switching between Bipolar and Unipolar on SCRE just offsets the CV range.

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

05 Jun 2019

Selig Gain plays very nicely with SRA. Just be sure to use the unipolar “all envelope” (button light OFF) CV out on SRA,, and select INV on the Selig Gain CV input in VCA mode. Use the CV fader to adjust ducking depth - simple!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

05 Jun 2019

selig wrote:
05 Jun 2019
Selig Gain plays very nicely with SRA. Just be sure to use the unipolar “all envelope” (button light OFF) CV out on SRA,, and select INV on the Selig Gain CV input in VCA mode. Use the CV fader to adjust ducking depth - simple!
:)
Nope - you get the ol' inverted envelope giving a kick-gate effect.

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

05 Jun 2019

Ignore the Skope, it's not in use here - just showing that when the ducker is high, no signal is passing the Selig Gain.

Image

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

05 Jun 2019

EdGrip wrote:
05 Jun 2019
selig wrote:
05 Jun 2019
Selig Gain plays very nicely with SRA. Just be sure to use the unipolar “all envelope” (button light OFF) CV out on SRA,, and select INV on the Selig Gain CV input in VCA mode. Use the CV fader to adjust ducking depth - simple!
:)
Nope - you get the ol' inverted envelope giving a kick-gate effect.
Sorry, misread what you said. Luckily it’s even easier then!

Just patch SRA unipolar out to Selig Gain CV in. Set to VCA mode with fader at zero. Even simpler.
Selig Audio, LLC

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