Complex-1 low adoption rate? I just bought it, did you?

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11175
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

22 May 2019

eusti wrote:
22 May 2019
Loque wrote:
22 May 2019


Yes. Maybe longer.
I still have the hope that it will be added in the sale extension that we’ve seen a few times now... I guess we’ll have to see... ;)

D.
Or will be added to Reason 11.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

22 May 2019

Loque wrote:
22 May 2019
eusti wrote:
22 May 2019


I still have the hope that it will be added in the sale extension that we’ve seen a few times now... I guess we’ll have to see... ;)

D.
Or will be added to Reason 11.
+1

Refill development could get awesome!
r11s

User avatar
mjxl
Posts: 600
Joined: 23 Nov 2018

22 May 2019

Loque wrote:
22 May 2019
Or will be added to Reason 11.
Pls no , I want more stuff i don't have yet q_q

johnyapplsede
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Jan 2020

08 Jan 2020

Hey everybody. I just joined this forum specifically to talk about Complex-1 compared to some other synths mentioned in this thread, especially U-He Bazille and Ace, and also software modular environments such as VCV Rack. I'm surprised how little talk there is of this after even a year of Complex-1 being released, and since the release of Reason Rack as a plugin. My apologies if this is a bit lengthy. I may go into the weeds with nostalgia as well, so maybe i'll put a TL;DR at the bottom.

So a little bit of background just so you know where I'm coming from. I've been making music on computers for about 15 years now starting with Sonic Foundry's Acid Pro 5 and then moving to Garageband when I bought a macbook (I will NEVER buy another Apple computer), and then eventually upgrading to Logic Pro 8 (this was also when I started using Reason, version 5 back then). I then switched back to PC and started using Ableton Live 8 all the way up through current Reason 11. Reason has been sprinkled in there, but I always used it in ReWire mode as I found the sequencer section of Reason to be clunky. Anyway, here I am today using Ableton Live 10 and Reaper with Reason running as a plugin. It's great!

Now for the comparisons.

First we have ACE. I've been using U-He ACE for a decade now and I think it's the closest comparison. It has many of the same features and is semi-modular, so you can't really interconnect it with other synths. Both ACE and Complex-1 are playable in their "init" state, meaning that you can load up the synth and play it without any patching. They're both basically just straight oscillators in this state, but at least the keyboard tracks and you're off and running. Both synths have a 4 stage envelope generator (ACE has 2) and both have ramp generators (Complex-1's LPGs can be used as ramp generators) The biggest thing missing from ACE in my opinion is a quantizer. Although the feature set is pretty similar, the sounds that come out of each synth are vastly different. As purely a semi-modular synth, I'd say that ACE takes the win because it has multiple envelope generators, LFO's, filters (can be used in serial or parallel), just more of what you'd expect from a modular synth. However, you can't jack external audio into ACE, so in that regard Complex-1 takes the win. You can get some really really cool sounds out of Complex-1 by hooking other audio sources into it!

Next up is Bazille, maybe my favorite synthesizer ever. I've spent so much time using this synthesizer that I don't even know where to begin. I started using it when it was in beta, and it was in beta for years, so I've probably been using Bazille for 7 or 8 years now as well. At first glance, it's very overwhelming to look at. There's a lot going on, but if you're familiar with subtractive synthesis (or FM synthesis) then it's all the stuff that you'd expect to find. Again, it is a semi-modular synth that can't really interact with other devices, and it's pre-patched to be playable from an "init" state (saw wave straight to output). There are 4 identical digital oscillators with phase modulation, phase distortion, and fractalize. You can also have the oscillators alternate between 2 of the available waveforms with each cycle. There's 4 ADSR envelopes, 2 ramp generators, 4 multimode filters, 4 multiplex modules, 2 LFO's, a step sequencer, 2 mapping generators, 2 inverters, 2 rectifiers, sample & hold, 2 sets of lag generators, a quantizers, and a handful of effects. I could spend hours talking about this thing, but at the end of the day...it's really not that similar to Complex-1. Although they share a lot of features, Bazille is ironically much more complex. The amount of modules in Bazille alone, the ability to combine modulation sources in the multiplex module, and the insanely flexible filter modules (you can use all 4 in parallel or in series) make Bazille a total powerhouse, and as a standalone synth it blows Complex-1 away in my opinion. However, once again, Complex-1 takes the win when it comes to being able to use it to shape external sound sources. You can't use Bazille to mangle a guitar or drum machine like you can with Complex-1.

The last contender is VCV Rack. There are other software emulations of eurorack, but VCV is free, open source, and seems to be the most popular of the bunch. Despite the visual similarities between Complex-1 and VCV Rack, they have almost nothing in common. Complex-1 is semi-modular and is essentially confined to the Reason Rack, although that has changed a bit with the release of the Reason Rack VST. There are few inputs and outputs on the back allowing for limited interactions with other instruments and effects, but that limitation can also be very inspiring. VCV Rack on the other hand is completely the opposite. When you open it for the first time, there is a default patch with some basic modules, but it isn't playable. You have to patch it up if you want it to sound musical, and even then...it takes time and lots of experimentation to get anything melodic to come out of it. You can add/remove any module that you want. If you don't like the filter, just swap it out for another one. Don't want to use a keyboard to imput notes? No problem, drop a sequencer in there. It is what you make it. It's so flexible! This is both a strength and a weakness in my opinion. For people who are coming from a hardware eurorack background, VCV Rack will seem straightforward and intuitive. On the other hand, if you have no experience with modular synthesis...you have quite a journey ahead of you. I can see how many people will open it for the first time and say "nope!". It can be extremely rewarding if you put in the time and learn how to make patches though. Anyway, this is all to say that VCV Rack and Complex-1 have very little in common onther than the ability to drag cables from one module to another, and also the ability to route external audio through their modules. VCV Rack is a blank canvas whereas Complex-1 is a well curated collection of modules that work well together.

TL;DR

ACE is the closest semi-modular synth that I've used compared to Complex-1, but ACE is more full-featured. Complex-1 is better when it comes to processing external audio.

Bazille is kind of like ACE on steroids, but is less similar to Complex-1 than ACE. Bazille is FAR more powerfull than Complex-1 as a standalone synth. Complex-1 is better when it comes to processing external audio.

VCV Rack is kind of an Apples to Oranges comparison given that it's completely modular. However, if I'm ranking these based on their abilities, VCV Rack beats in Complex-1 in every regard.

I hope this is helpful to somebody! I felt compelled to write this up since there seems to be very little talk of Complex-1 even still. Since the release of Reason as a VST, there's a lot more possibilities in what you can do with Reason modules. I hope you can all take the time to give Complex-1 a try.

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

08 Jan 2020

johnyapplsede wrote:
08 Jan 2020
Hey everybody. I just joined this forum specifically to talk about Complex-1 compared to some other synths mentioned in this thread, especially U-He Bazille and Ace, and also software modular environments such as VCV Rack. I'm surprised how little talk there is of this after even a year of Complex-1 being released, and since the release of Reason Rack as a plugin. My apologies if this is a bit lengthy. I may go into the weeds with nostalgia as well, so maybe i'll put a TL;DR at the bottom.

So a little bit of background just so you know where I'm coming from. I've been making music on computers for about 15 years now starting with Sonic Foundry's Acid Pro 5 and then moving to Garageband when I bought a macbook (I will NEVER buy another Apple computer), and then eventually upgrading to Logic Pro 8 (this was also when I started using Reason, version 5 back then). I then switched back to PC and started using Ableton Live 8 all the way up through current Reason 11. Reason has been sprinkled in there, but I always used it in ReWire mode as I found the sequencer section of Reason to be clunky. Anyway, here I am today using Ableton Live 10 and Reaper with Reason running as a plugin. It's great!

Now for the comparisons.

First we have ACE. I've been using U-He ACE for a decade now and I think it's the closest comparison. It has many of the same features and is semi-modular, so you can't really interconnect it with other synths. Both ACE and Complex-1 are playable in their "init" state, meaning that you can load up the synth and play it without any patching. They're both basically just straight oscillators in this state, but at least the keyboard tracks and you're off and running. Both synths have a 4 stage envelope generator (ACE has 2) and both have ramp generators (Complex-1's LPGs can be used as ramp generators) The biggest thing missing from ACE in my opinion is a quantizer. Although the feature set is pretty similar, the sounds that come out of each synth are vastly different. As purely a semi-modular synth, I'd say that ACE takes the win because it has multiple envelope generators, LFO's, filters (can be used in serial or parallel), just more of what you'd expect from a modular synth. However, you can't jack external audio into ACE, so in that regard Complex-1 takes the win. You can get some really really cool sounds out of Complex-1 by hooking other audio sources into it!

Next up is Bazille, maybe my favorite synthesizer ever. I've spent so much time using this synthesizer that I don't even know where to begin. I started using it when it was in beta, and it was in beta for years, so I've probably been using Bazille for 7 or 8 years now as well. At first glance, it's very overwhelming to look at. There's a lot going on, but if you're familiar with subtractive synthesis (or FM synthesis) then it's all the stuff that you'd expect to find. Again, it is a semi-modular synth that can't really interact with other devices, and it's pre-patched to be playable from an "init" state (saw wave straight to output). There are 4 identical digital oscillators with phase modulation, phase distortion, and fractalize. You can also have the oscillators alternate between 2 of the available waveforms with each cycle. There's 4 ADSR envelopes, 2 ramp generators, 4 multimode filters, 4 multiplex modules, 2 LFO's, a step sequencer, 2 mapping generators, 2 inverters, 2 rectifiers, sample & hold, 2 sets of lag generators, a quantizers, and a handful of effects. I could spend hours talking about this thing, but at the end of the day...it's really not that similar to Complex-1. Although they share a lot of features, Bazille is ironically much more complex. The amount of modules in Bazille alone, the ability to combine modulation sources in the multiplex module, and the insanely flexible filter modules (you can use all 4 in parallel or in series) make Bazille a total powerhouse, and as a standalone synth it blows Complex-1 away in my opinion. However, once again, Complex-1 takes the win when it comes to being able to use it to shape external sound sources. You can't use Bazille to mangle a guitar or drum machine like you can with Complex-1.

The last contender is VCV Rack. There are other software emulations of eurorack, but VCV is free, open source, and seems to be the most popular of the bunch. Despite the visual similarities between Complex-1 and VCV Rack, they have almost nothing in common. Complex-1 is semi-modular and is essentially confined to the Reason Rack, although that has changed a bit with the release of the Reason Rack VST. There are few inputs and outputs on the back allowing for limited interactions with other instruments and effects, but that limitation can also be very inspiring. VCV Rack on the other hand is completely the opposite. When you open it for the first time, there is a default patch with some basic modules, but it isn't playable. You have to patch it up if you want it to sound musical, and even then...it takes time and lots of experimentation to get anything melodic to come out of it. You can add/remove any module that you want. If you don't like the filter, just swap it out for another one. Don't want to use a keyboard to imput notes? No problem, drop a sequencer in there. It is what you make it. It's so flexible! This is both a strength and a weakness in my opinion. For people who are coming from a hardware eurorack background, VCV Rack will seem straightforward and intuitive. On the other hand, if you have no experience with modular synthesis...you have quite a journey ahead of you. I can see how many people will open it for the first time and say "nope!". It can be extremely rewarding if you put in the time and learn how to make patches though. Anyway, this is all to say that VCV Rack and Complex-1 have very little in common onther than the ability to drag cables from one module to another, and also the ability to route external audio through their modules. VCV Rack is a blank canvas whereas Complex-1 is a well curated collection of modules that work well together.

TL;DR

ACE is the closest semi-modular synth that I've used compared to Complex-1, but ACE is more full-featured. Complex-1 is better when it comes to processing external audio.

Bazille is kind of like ACE on steroids, but is less similar to Complex-1 than ACE. Bazille is FAR more powerfull than Complex-1 as a standalone synth. Complex-1 is better when it comes to processing external audio.

VCV Rack is kind of an Apples to Oranges comparison given that it's completely modular. However, if I'm ranking these based on their abilities, VCV Rack beats in Complex-1 in every regard.

I hope this is helpful to somebody! I felt compelled to write this up since there seems to be very little talk of Complex-1 even still. Since the release of Reason as a VST, there's a lot more possibilities in what you can do with Reason modules. I hope you can all take the time to give Complex-1 a try.
Thanks for this!

Complex-1 was a must buy, when it went on sale. A fun thing to do is to 1. make a normal sound, then 2. light it on fire with the noise generator as a modulator. Send that thing, in small amounts (10% or so), all over the place. Grimey, gritty, goodness!!!
Last edited by BRIGGS on 17 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.
r11s

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

08 Jan 2020

I still haven't tried Complex-1, but nice to hear some good words about Bazille. I have the "light" Computer Music version of Bazille, and even that is plenty deep and I love it. I'm tempted to buy the full version one day just for the presets, not cos I feel limited. It's such a good synth, and it can get very nasty. I think Bazille is a bit under-rated and overlooked. Anyway, back on topic...

User avatar
Benedict
Competition Winner
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Contact:

08 Jan 2020

boingy wrote:
08 May 2019
am I the only person that things the graphical look of the thing is, well, crap? Those controls look like they were drawn by a 3 year old in a hurry.
It's a Buchla emulation. Compared to Moog, they always looked Fisher-Price :o

I spent a while with Complex-1 and while in some ways I rather liked it (sounds good and bodes well for future RS Synths) I find the Buchla approach odd (after 30 years of a more Moog approach - which even the CZ had in its own way).

Here is what I did with it.



I Revoiced a track already made with Thor etc with Complex-1. I liked the individual sounds in themselves but not so much the overall feel (and that Buchla thing). I wouldn't say Complex-1 is bad, simply that I am not interested enough with what I already have access too.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

johnyapplsede
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Jan 2020

09 Jan 2020

EdGrip wrote:
08 Jan 2020
I still haven't tried Complex-1, but nice to hear some good words about Bazille. I have the "light" Computer Music version of Bazille, and even that is plenty deep and I love it.
I thought about using BazilleCM or Beatzille for a comparison instead of Bazille, but I wasn't sure how many people have used those. They are rather hard to hunt down these days if you weren't able to get it with the magazine. I actually prefer to use BazilleCM sometimes when I want to come up with something quickly. It's just a bit easier to manage.

It's funny to me that you'd buy Bazille for the presets. I don't think I've ever used a Bazille preset in a song. The fun for me is making sounds from scratch! To each his own though.

User avatar
tallguy
Posts: 331
Joined: 11 Jan 2018
Contact:

10 Jan 2020

I tried Complex-1 and found it very hard to get my head around. Bazille on the other hand starts spitting out great sounds from the get-go. I'm currently trialling it and find it by far the easiest synth in this category to make nice patches on. Of course, I'm by no means using all of Bazille. Far from it. But even if you only use 5% of Bazille, it already sounds amazing.

User avatar
Re8et
Competition Winner
Posts: 1512
Joined: 14 Nov 2016

10 Jan 2020

Libraquaricorn wrote:
07 May 2019
I tried it today for the first time and I am tempted because it evidently is a great synth. Only problem is I already have a ton of synths that cover this niche, and more.... Buchla Easel V, Softube Modular, Xils Lab LE, Reaktor Blocks, Moog Modular V, Arp 2600 V.... I even have a Volca Modular. But at 49 spendolas I must say the Complex-1 is a steal! It's just a lttte late to the party and I've already made more cool friends than I'm able to entertain... I havent bought any new softsynths in 2019....just the Volca, which is hardware..... maybe I"ll treat myself...
I'm very tempted by the volca modular... I doubt it seriously it could come even close to the level of sonic perfection of Complex-1.
Can you get nice basslines out of it??
It would be awesome to organize a comunity refill for it, I'm making a huge variety of sounds presets out of it.

Let's take a siren sound for example, you can get the Thor preset, mangle it a little bit, and you can get a really nice Siren.
Complex does not have a Siren sound preset, at the moment, but given it is a PH product, the presets could get a very nice expansion,
maybe PH themselves could drive a Complex contest for the go? :roll:
Last edited by Re8et on 10 Jan 2020, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Re8et
Competition Winner
Posts: 1512
Joined: 14 Nov 2016

10 Jan 2020

johnyapplsede wrote:
08 Jan 2020


VCV Rack is kind of an Apples to Oranges comparison given that it's completely modular. However, if I'm ranking these based on their abilities, VCV Rack beats in Complex-1 in every regard.

I hope this is helpful to somebody! I felt compelled to write this up since there seems to be very little talk of Complex-1 even still. Since the release of Reason as a VST, there's a lot more possibilities in what you can do with Reason modules. I hope you can all take the time to give Complex-1 a try.
Except VCV rack eats huge amounts of GPU cycles and for laptop use is a poor performer compared to Complex-1 and Reason in general.
Use it a monophonic synth, that's what it is. There are no such monophonic beasts in VCV. Complex-1 win for me in this context.

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

12 Jan 2020

In case you guys missed it:

r11s

johnyapplsede
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Jan 2020

13 Jan 2020

Re8et wrote:
10 Jan 2020
Except VCV rack eats huge amounts of GPU cycles and for laptop use is a poor performer compared to Complex-1 and Reason in general.
Use it a monophonic synth, that's what it is. There are no such monophonic beasts in VCV. Complex-1 win for me in this context.
That's a really good point about the GPU cycles, and something that I hadn't considered. VCV Rack is extremely power hungry when it comes to graphics and I sometimes forget that because I use a desktop with a decent GPU. It's certainly something to think about if you're using a laptop.

As far as there not being similar monosynths in VCV, I wouldn't be so sure. Maybe there isn't a 1:1 clone of the exact same modules in a neat little package, but all-in-one monosynths do exist as modules in VCV, and a determined individual could certainly cobble together something that serves the same purpose. The amount of modules, even free ones, for VCV Rack is overwhelming in its own right.

Either way, I've been having the most fun using Complex-1 for processing external audio vs. using it as a monosynth. Combining the two concepts is also really fun!

User avatar
kuhliloach
Posts: 880
Joined: 09 Dec 2015

13 Jan 2020

I'm fascinated by Complex-1 but no I did not buy it because until Reason's sequencer and lo-res UI are completely overhauled to compete with Ableton I will not be purchasing anything further from Reason Studios. Also it feels like a missed opportunity to flex those modular muscles that might lead to VCV type action in Reason.

johnyapplsede
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Jan 2020

13 Jan 2020

I have to agree with you there, Kuhliloach. The UI is painfully outdated and even on an older 1080p screen I still wish things would scale up. I'm not a programmer so I have no idea what it would take bring the UI up to date. Can anybody explain why they still haven't done this after years of complaints from their users?

User avatar
ShelLuser
Posts: 358
Joined: 25 Aug 2019

13 Jan 2020

I've been using Complex-1 for a few months now and well.. imo it's close to a 'must have' for people who use Reason for sound design because it's quite perfect for that. To be honest Complex-1 also kind of on nsymbolizes what I enjoy so much about Reason as a whole: the Props have always added quite a bit of diversity into Reason and this is just one example of that/
--- :reason:

User avatar
manisnotabird
Posts: 475
Joined: 20 Feb 2015
Location: Austin, TX

13 Jan 2020

I honestly find Thor-style mod matrixes a faster, more intuitive way to program modular/semi-modular soft synths. Virtual cables are more confusing.

User avatar
Chizmata
Posts: 918
Joined: 21 Dec 2015
Contact:

15 Jan 2020

Pretty much all synths nowadays are ridiculous and you can make almost everything with any of them. the question is mainly which workflow you prefer.

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

15 Jan 2020

Chizmata wrote:
15 Jan 2020
Pretty much all synths nowadays are ridiculous and you can make almost everything with any of them. the question is mainly which workflow you prefer.
Workflow.... and sonic character. Ex. Thor doesn't sound like Complex-1, but you can make the same 'types' of sounds.
r11s

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

15 Jan 2020

i use mine a lot actually!

i just wish they had more oscillator waveforms.

seems kinda weird to make a modular synth and not have a ton of waveforms

this device would be perfect if it had a user table oscillator on all 3 oscillators and two filter modules.

id sacrifice the noise oscillator for another filter.

they just need to make Thor 2.0 already
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

20 Jan 2020

scratchnsnifff wrote:
15 Jan 2020
i use mine a lot actually!

i just wish they had more oscillator waveforms.

seems kinda weird to make a modular synth and not have a ton of waveforms
The idea, is to use basic waveforms to create your own waveforms.
r11s

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

22 Jan 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
20 Jan 2020
scratchnsnifff wrote:
15 Jan 2020
i use mine a lot actually!

i just wish they had more oscillator waveforms.

seems kinda weird to make a modular synth and not have a ton of waveforms
The idea, is to use basic waveforms to create your own waveforms.
Right, but Why not use complex waveforms to make even more complex waveforms :)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2135
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

22 Jan 2020

scratchnsnifff wrote:
22 Jan 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
20 Jan 2020


The idea, is to use basic waveforms to create your own waveforms.
Right, but Why not use complex waveforms to make even more complex waveforms :)
Because big things have small beginnings.

ref:

r11s

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 24 guests