IDTs are better than you might think!

[challism]

Joey said: As I mentioned, REs made with the IDT can have a bunch of CV on the back too

Challis said: Oh really? Another surprise. I missed that. Well.... sheeeeeet, that's cool. Props must have added that in an update. Sweet!

[Oquasec]

Does the IDT use similar dsp code? If so, that might be the reason why.
Synthedit & reaktor are the same thing as ujam.
If you want custom stuff learn C++ & Lua.

[Dante]

I would really like a list of IDT's - but how do I know which ones are IDT in order to make the list ? Seems like a chicken and egg problem.

[Boombastix]

Since the introduction of IDT2 and the Ujam Gorilla Engine isn't this discussion obsolete? The old IDT can often be identified as having only one set of CV inputs, everyone could see that in the shop, but it's in the past.

Sent from my Moto G (5) Plus using Tapatalk

[Data_Shrine]

Aren't IDT's basically romplers ? That's what I always thought.

[Boombastix]

Aren't IDT's basically romplers ? That's what I always thought.

No! Not since IDT2 (SDK 3).

[Dante]

These are all IDT :
Reason ID8
CB-1 Circuit-Bent Brass Synthesizer
CB-2 Circuit-Bent Drums Synthesizer
CB-3 Circuit-Bent Keys Synthesizer
CB-4 Circuit-Bent Organ Synthesizer
CB-5 Circuit-Bent Wind Synthesizer

[Oenkenstein]

Aren't IDT's basically romplers ? That's what I always thought.

The main purpose of IDT is to build romplers. IDT is a great method to convert Refills into RE's.
But it also allows developers making synthesizers based on samples or wave loops and add extra oscillators, modulation routing and effects.
The Rack Extensions made using the 'older' IDT versions can be recognized because they lack extra CV in and outputs on the back panel: All my synthesizer Rack Extensions are in fact IDT's. The whole Rumble serie is IDT based.

With the release of the Gorilla Engine, developers now can use this updated tech to make instruments and effects devices, impossible for its users to detect whether IDT/GE tools are used.

[JiggeryPokery]

Aren't IDT's basically romplers ? That's what I always thought.

No! Not since IDT2 (SDK 3).

Sorry, but despite the emphatic "No!", none of that it correct.

To be fair to Data_Shrine, his comment at least is easy to understand given how the well-established misnomer it's all about "romplers" comes from, as PH did announce it as a system for converting ReFills to the RE format. Arguably, then, it was true, and all the products in the first few months were—and could only be—sample-based. Plus, it's likely all of us here saw it announced by PH which perhaps also gave it a—let's say—"legitimacy" as a PH-related SDK component where in reality that wasn't true, or it maybe kind of was at the time but the story is more convoluted and since we'll never know it, just for a change I won't hazard to conject upon it here.

The addition of oscillators dates from IDT, not IDT2 (and there's no such thing called IDT2, this isn't even pedantry: it's quite specifically not called that, as a released product anyway). There are a number of users out there who have at least two products with an identical "super-saw", and I recall a user posting that one sounded better than the other... ! The danger with pre-coded formats is users risking paying for literally just a GUI-reskin of exactly the same thing they already have.

And once again, GE and the RE SDK are not related in any kind of manner that one can associate them with version numbers, there is PH's SDK, and there is uJam's GE, both of which ... do stuff, and not necessarily at the same time .

[buddard]

Reason ID8

Wasn't ID8 introduced way back in Record 1.0, i.e in 2009? I doubt that IDT was even planned back then.

[Boombastix]

Propellerhead calls it IDT2, so...there is that...
https://www.propellerheads.com/developers

[Data_Shrine]

No! Not since IDT2 (SDK 3).

Sorry, but despite the emphatic "No!", none of that it correct.

To be fair to Data_Shrine, his comment at least is easy to understand given how the well-established misnomer it's all about "romplers" comes from, as PH did announce it as a system for converting ReFills to the RE format. Arguably, then, it was true, and all the products in the first few months were—and could only be—sample-based. Plus, it's likely all of us here saw it announced by PH which perhaps also gave it a—let's say—"legitimacy" as a PH-related SDK component where in reality that wasn't true, or it maybe kind of was at the time but the story is more convoluted and since we'll never know it, just for a change I won't hazard to conject upon it here.

The addition of oscillators dates from IDT, not IDT2 (and there's no such thing called IDT2, this isn't even pedantry: it's quite specifically not called that, as a released product anyway). There are a number of users out there who have at least two products with an identical "super-saw", and I recall a user posting that one sounded better than the other... ! The danger with pre-coded formats is users risking paying for literally just a GUI-reskin of exactly the same thing they already have.

And once again, GE and the RE SDK are not related in any kind of manner that one can associate them with version numbers, there is PH's SDK, and there is uJam's GE, both of which ... do stuff, and not necessarily at the same time .

I had no idea they added "pre-made" osc that aren't sample-based to the IDT Kit. Somehow that worries me more than romplers.. because I have nothing against romplers in general, especially in the softsynth world. They have a place to occupy (even in the hardware world, but in this case they're not for me).

I'm not sure if your Combo X-705 Space Organ is an IDT or not, but I have it and either way I think it's brillant and very deep. I really like it. I especially love the strings.

cheers

[fullforce]

There are a number of users out there who have at least two products with an identical "super-saw", and I recall a user posting that one sounded better than the other... ! The danger with pre-coded formats is users risking paying for literally just a GUI-reskin of exactly the same thing they already have.

Not only that, if I may chime in. Using those made and ready parts makes developers lazy. That's why you don't have the CV in and outputs on the back. Not because they couldn't be there. They're not there because someone who slaps together a weak monstrosity of a RE can't be arsed to make some CV in and outputs.

They'll even steal the artwork, right? Chimera anyone?

[Oenkenstein]

There are a number of users out there who have at least two products with an identical "super-saw", and I recall a user posting that one sounded better than the other... ! The danger with pre-coded formats is users risking paying for literally just a GUI-reskin of exactly the same thing they already have.

Not only that, if I may chime in. Using those made and ready parts makes developers lazy. That's why you don't have the CV in and outputs on the back. Not because they couldn't be there. They're not there because someone who slaps together a weak monstrosity of a RE can't be arsed to make some CV in and outputs.

They'll even steal the artwork, right? Chimera anyone?

Oh man, developers are so lazy with their pre fab oscillators. They never have worked 12 to 16 hours a day, a whole year long. They do not even bother to cut 4000 samples. They also never listen to suggestions or seem to want to iron out bugs and chrashes during beta test . Oh man, they are so lazy. And all the developers rob artwork too.

[JiggeryPokery]

Propellerhead calls it IDT2, so...there is that...
https://www.propellerheads.com/developers

D'oh. OK, you got me. There's no denying that one!

Still, according to PH's website, Google+ is still a place to go for "the latest".

PH_forum_the_latest.png (26.95 KiB) Viewed 1915 times

The "latest" what, I've no idea, but they've not Plussed since 2016!

So, in my defence, I wouldn't put too much stock on what PH write on their marketing pages: no idea how their bumpf writer came to the conclusion "IDT2 was introduced in version 3 of the Rack Extension SDK"! It totally wasn't and isn't part of SDK3 (last I checked it doesn't even work with SDK3 as there is literally no need for it to do so). They were officially released at or about the same time, so I'd assume someone put 2 and 3 together and came up with 85*



_____
* a quality gag, that; quality!

[fullforce]

Oh man, developers are so lazy with their pre fab oscillators. They never have worked 12 to 16 hours a day, a whole year long. They do not even bother to cut 4000 samples. They also never listen to suggestions or seem to want to iron out bugs and chrashes during beta test . Oh man, they are so lazy. And all the developers rob artwork too.

Yeah that's exactly what I said. Or whatever.

[JiggeryPokery]

I'm not sure if your Combo X-705 Space Organ is an IDT or not, but I have it and either way I think it's brillant and very deep. I really like it. I especially love the strings.

cheers

Thanks, and it's fairly common knowledge all my Combo organs are IDT, and the more recent sampled products (Melodica, SuperNova) are GE/IDT2/Whatever We're Calling It Today, and there's no shame in that: if it weren't for IDT I can't imagine any of those would be in the shop as hiring external C++ coders—as I did with the BBD effects and Harmonic Synthesizer for example—to attempt that stuff would have prohibitive. All of my IDT/GE instrument releases are 100% sampled, though, and that was the originally announced intention for the IDT project. It's now rather different, and now not only for the RE format, it's VST-compatible. It's more like a SynthEdit type thing, although that's a bit misrepresentive, it's a useful descriptive short-hand.

Now, that's not to say I'd never do a GE synth or sample-based "synth" as there are a couple of things I'd like to do and GE might be the only way I can achieve it, things that either haven't been done or have been done so badly and cheaply it's largely ruined any realistic chance of me taking a proper crack at it that I could get a decent RoI on the effort. I'd only do it if I can do so in a way that users genuinely get something unique.

In the SynthEdit/Reaktor world, creators have tended to release their creations free, whereas in Reason IDT/GE, that's not always been the case (and this isn't a criticism so much an observation, it's a competitive business and that's fine), but I think the standard of what's being released should be higher than a quick skin-job on the latest GE module uJam have added and releasing it just as that pretty much "as is" and doing so within a fortnight, buggy as hell, just to make a quick buck and be first to market.

In terms of the synth side there's also a pretty fundamental limitation which ofc I can't talk about. Though, actually, Europa doesn't have this important feature either, so by Internet conspiracy correlation that means Europa must be GE-based...!

/ducks

[Boombastix]

In the SynthEdit/Reaktor world, creators have tended to release their creations free, whereas in Reason IDT/GE, that's not always been the case (and this isn't a criticism so much an observation, it's a competitive business and that's fine), but I think the standard of what's being released should be higher than a quick skin-job on the latest GE module uJam have added and releasing it just as that pretty much "as is" and doing so within a fortnight, buggy as hell, just to make a quick buck and be first to market.

Well, the Gorilla Engine (GE) allows for free releases, so, I guess any developer could make REs with one or two simple pre-made GE FX modules and compete with Turn2On if they so wish. But once all GE FX are released as stand alone, free or in $9 versions, I'm sure more creative devices stitching together new exciting FX chains and synth/sample players and more will emerge. Personally I'm not a big fan of single FX modules, I would rather see some creative combinations for specialty use. Maybe not like Waves One Knob concept, but specialized devices built for a target application and some in-built creativity. I'm sure that can be achieved within the GE if someone takes the time to do it and who also has an understanding of modern music production and some of the arduous tasks that could be implemented in one device. And with less time trying to get basic C++ code to run, you could, in theory, try stuff (abuse/misuse) the GE modules and see what happens to the sound in all sorts of new combinations - so more time on testing stuff and finding those "happy accidents", that led to such things as the 808 hi hat.

PHs use of the Gorilla Engine to make the Umpf REs did seem successful and they were welcomed devices, people seemed to like them, just barking at the $99 price. And of course, some barking when they release another variant shortly after. That I can understand. If you gonna do a series of devices, then surely you should release the series at once, so buyers don't feel cheated jumping on the first version, only to find out the second fitted their needs better. There is a lesson for PH here. But other than that, the sound/function was received as solid.

Ujam released the Beatmaker series, together. But then Ujams own Beatmakers seemed to have flopped badly, so it still holds true, you need to provide quality/usability. Apparently there is a lesson for Ujam here. The GE based Virtual Basists, will on the other hand probably follow the success of their Virtual Guitar players. The bass units probably appear as REs soon, it is my guess. I guess they just need to compile and send them from San Fran to Stockholm for release...

I installed a Turn2On device, but it after some use crashed and brought Resaon down with it, even though REs are supposed to run "sandboxed", so that experience comes at a cost, for the developer, I'm not particularly impressed with their units. There is a lesson here as well...

But at the end of the day, I think it is great that the GE takes C++ out of VST/RE coding. This opens up to new creative forces, especially, as I'm sure, the GE framework will expand.
More focus on function/sound and usability/panel design, rather than code struggles. So many C++ open source files already exists for ladder filters, acid/diode filters, many FX, and so on, I think it's only logical that a user friendly SDK comes to the RE developers, just like Max, Reaktor, or JUCE, but even more simplified.

Sure I could buy Reaktor, $400 is it? Then download some free content or spend hours putting something together myself, or I can spend $400 in the RE shop for GE made REs that some smart dude invented and that actually adds to my arsenal of synths and FX. I actually prefer the GE/RE in this case. Maybe why I haven't upgraded my NI Komplete to include Reaktor.

And maybe you're right in that Europa was made with GE, if so then probably Grain too, as the bottom half is pretty identical. Folks seem to love those two units, regardless of what SDK was used.

Anyhow, that's my view on it

[turn2on]

Many users and also developers in this topic talk very wrong things about GE and using it.
All users and Devs of RE, need to know much deeper history, as I see in this topic.

About 2 years ago started closed test of upcoming IDT2. This beta-developers testers group is was very closed. Turn2on and few devs been with this product from very early beta versions, that been closed to other developers, that not really know how GE parts was born...
GE - named at final pre-relase stage (it was been IDT2)... But have a long story.
GE formed as you know it today - in very long time with closed tests... Only few devs have access to this IDT2 stage beta test...

UJAM is very opened to his beta-testers and help to find any solution of dev tasks, to realise something needed for real RE product build.

I'm persanally have very big list of suggestions to UJAM that been realised today in GE, and devs also can use it now.
I'm regulary talk with UJAM, ask new and new things, elements, solution, tricks and functional in own needs. They very opened and make a great work. Developer of closed group have a task and try find solutions, that in GE cant possible at current satge. He ask needed things and UJAM make it for powerful future of GE and needed tasks of dev. Later it can be used by another devs in public versions.

This is a very very big list of devs interests and needed in big % - been realised. This also include totally changes of fundamental things of GE at all from early beta. Now GE is a powerful toolkit for any developer. Come and work, work, work..

I can understand developers that download public version of GE today. They can see some modules into it. And they look at it, look at shop of REs. And after it they can say fastly that THIS dev just get ready modules and just add GUI... its not true. Because many things in GE was created in long talks of various ideas, needs and tasks, devs search solutions with UJAM in tasks and UJAM modified in this way GE. Some changes been added because devs talk about it. And this is cool for GE, and all coming devs.

Some devs in this topic, users, just not understand how GE/IDT2 was born, tested and what role some devs (and devs who already start with GE) play in GE - that you can know today as public version.
Not all developers of RE - have access to GE. Who have access to public beta - dont know what was been created in this years by UJAM and what role another devs play at previous long story betas from last 2 years.

This is not good idea today from users and Devs, that talk about some ready RE products as RE that been created just "as_is_as" into GE by this dev. This is a point that they just not understand how many interesting things and real needed things was been added to GE at all when this devs needed in thing for his projects...
Yes, we lobby own interests and ask many many things that help to GE in future, and UJAM realise it. It is great, because what we ask, new developers can use today too.
Think "As is as" about modules today about ready REs - totally WRONG! Some modules been created, been changed and mutated in new modules when we talk with UJAM in real current tasks for current RE projects. Another developers work in same way too.
Please, not write about RE products based on modules - as "As is as" + GUI. Its really bad play from your side, because you just not understand about background role of developers at beta-level of GE, of many things into UJAM work under GE and role of this devs.

GE is live mutated toolkit for developers needs. Its not a static toolkit that new developer can get and work with ready devices.
Also, when one developer talk about GE, he talk about current public version of GE. Know, in this moment - another developers test newer GE and work on something new that been added to new public version and can be already used when newer dev of public version get on hands... Really, its easy to understanding. Cooperate with UJAM in your ideas and crete own projects, if you feel that internal modules not enough (but really there a big list now).

I can said that only today I talk with UJAM and ask new very basic needs in future of GE.
That can help to devs used GE going out of only internal modules, and this devs can use DSP as their own sub-plugins, that can be used as modules into GE (partly this already possible!). And at this point, users must know, that GE is also can be a newer part that can be used for C++ elements at developers side. At this point, GE is toolkit - with freedom for developers.

If users and developers don't know basic things about GE, they can say there some things that really don't understand and know (role of another devs), include how some RE from GE was born many times... how been created modules and many other things in GE.

Today no needs to named anything in Prop Shop as IDT/IDT2/GE.... all this is full RE. At this moment GE is a framework, some elements of GE also been created by UJAM in needs of developers. And this is a perfect tool for new products by any developer.

[esselfortium]

I find it weird that JP’s “as is” comment received so much repeated specific emphasis in your rebuttal when JP didn’t actually mention you...

[JiggeryPokery]

And maybe you're right in that Europa was made with GE, if so then probably Grain too, as the bottom half is pretty identical. Folks seem to love those two units, regardless of what SDK was used.

To be clear, I was absolutely joking in that bit, hence the quip about conspiracy theories and correlations. Those aren't GE.

[turn2on]

I’m not addressed to JP or any concrete dev or user. I just talk about GE and role of FEW various developers (can’t name them here). They make something for UJAM make changes and additions to this toolkit as what another devs can view and use today.
I not have any personal links to anybody in this topic. I’m absolutely neutral if anybody wrong and I’m not try to touch any user or Dev.
Users not know GE/IDT2/IDT changes. And they listen what developers can say. Not all developers know deeper about GE.

I installed a Turn2On device, but it after some use crashed and brought Reason down with it, even though REs are supposed to run "sandboxed", so that experience comes at a cost, for the developer, I'm not particularly impressed with their units. There is a lesson here as well...

Sorry, but I don't know what's problem you have and with what device from us. We always try to close any problem if user report it to us. Crashed RE is not normal anyway.
If RE crashed down with Reason, its not normal and users write in this situation to us. Today we not know any problems with RE that can crash Reason. Now its been loud to talk about us and make labeling for us as who have problems with working of RE. Its not true.
Please, if user have any question, write to us with details, that help to answer and resolve any problem.

[Boombastix]

And maybe you're right in that Europa was made with GE, if so then probably Grain too, as the bottom half is pretty identical. Folks seem to love those two units, regardless of what SDK was used.

To be clear, I was absolutely joking in that bit, hence the quip about conspiracy theories and correlations. Those aren't GE.

I understood that. But at the end it doesn't matter to me, it's about what a RE can do, how it does it, and how it sounds.

So, now I will speculate: They could be working with a GE beta that allows C++ files to be integrated/compiled, it just has not been release to developers yet. And as the GE engine can put out both RE and VST, it sure seems plausible. I think strategically that is what PH wants in the long run, but they need time to dip their toes in the water before it gets a broader release #), i.e. make a REs with the GE, release it as a VST too, and get it on the ELK HW platform.

By reading the PH, Ujam websites, and seeing the PH JUCE talk, it is pretty clear to me that this road map is definitely on the table. Question is when will they execute? Perhaps they want to capitalize on these abilities first and bring out more RE (the recent refill re-packaging of base and drum player, I guess, are GE as well) and exhaust some of their ideas, before RE developers get the C++ integration in GE. Maybe they work on VST anti-piracy aspects, to the benefit of the developers, and they put out Europa too see how robust it was as a VST for hacking before they open the floodgates. Imagine if every developer released their REs as a VST and they get hacked the next week, that would be a serious threat PH as a business and its REs sales "commission".

I'm excited to what GE brings in the future and I think developers and users will both benefit in the long run if the road map that I outlined above comes to fruition.

#) example: the VST module for Reason was coded up and ready 4 years* before it was released, so they sure seem cautious, or had to wait for other things to fall in place)
*) I don't remember the exact number of the top of my head, but it was several years.