IDTs are better than you might think!

[challism]

This came up in a facebook conversation and I thought it was a good idea. We should have a list of all the REs that use IDT tech, as opposed to those using the SDK. Please note: I am not suggesting IDTs are a bad thing, I am a fan of many of the IDT instruments in the shop. Perhaps we can shed some light on IDTs and get rid of some of the undeserved stigma that they have. You might be surprised that IDTs are better than you think.

EDIT: OK making a list of IDT's will probably not serve a good purpose. I don't want this to be a crap on IDT thread. Perhaps we can point out some benefits of IDT. Or point out some beloved REs that are IDT to help shake off the stigma IDTs seem to have by some users. As pointed out below, by ScuzzyEye, the IDT framework has been updated and given more abilities than the first incarnation, much like SDK has undergone over the years.

[guitfnky]

I'll never understand why this matters. the only distinction is a psychological one. either an RE sounds good or it doesn't. either it does what you need it to do, or it doesn't. the technology used to develop it is irrelevant.

[ScuzzyEye]

Without saying too much, I'll just put out there that there have been updates to IDT just as there have been to the core SDK. It supports many more features and the line between devices developed using the IDT vs. directly with the SDK is much blurrier now. I'd say in some cases it is impossible for the end user to identify which are which. So without the developer actually saying, you can't build this list.

And that's better for everyone.

[challism]

Yeah, the line is blurrier than it used to be. That is a good thing. IDT now supports sample loading.

As I said in the OP, I'm not saying IDTs are bad. But the topic comes up enough, I thought a list would be a useful thing to have for those who care. Not everyone cares, but some people do.

Some developers freely admit if a device is IDT. So we could build a partial list, just not a complete one, I guess. And I guess we can always make educated guesses, which may or may not be confirmed.

[ScuzzyEye]

Yeah, IDT supports sample loading now. As I said in the OP, I'm not saying IDTs are bad. But the topic comes up enough, I thought a list would be a useful thing to have for those who care. Not everyone cares, but some people do.

I know you're not saying IDTs are bad, but some people seem to believe that anyway. I know there are developers who'd rather not say which devices are and aren't, because of those who for what ever reason think IDTs are lesser devices.

[guitfnky]

what would someone actually use that knowledge for?

[challism]

what would someone actually use that knowledge for?

Well, it could be used to show people that IDTs shouldn't be given such stigma. I think many users would be surprised to find out that their favorite effect or synth device is actually and IDT device. So this thread could actually help IDTs.

[guitfnky]

what would someone actually use that knowledge for?

Well, it could be used to show people that IDTs shouldn't be given such stigma. I think many users would be surprised to find out that their favorite effect or synth device is actually and IDT device. So this thread could actually help IDTs.

I can see that, to a degree, but also, doesn’t calling out the distinction just perpetuate the perception that IDT devices are different, and therefore can be seen as inferior (or superior) to other devices?

[challism]

Well, it could be used to show people that IDTs shouldn't be given such stigma. I think many users would be surprised to find out that their favorite effect or synth device is actually and IDT device. So this thread could actually help IDTs.

I can see that, to a degree, but also, doesn’t calling out the distinction just perpetuate the perception that IDT devices are different, and therefore can be seen as inferior (or superior) to other devices?

I don't know, man. Some people think the world is flat.

[RobC]

Good thing about IDTs seems to me, that they are made with professionally created and tested tools.

[challism]

Good thing about IDTs seems to me, that they are made with professionally created and tested tools.

Great point!

Maybe I should change the name of this topic to IDTs Are Better Than You Might Think

[guitfnky]

Good thing about IDTs seems to me, that they are made with professionally created and tested tools.

Great point!

Maybe I should change the name of this topic to IDTs Are Better Than You Might Think

[QVprod]

Honestly, as Scuzzy said, There have been several updates, and Props haven't been overly public about it as they were for SDK 2.5 with the 9.2 update. I don't think we should even separate "SDK" RE from IDT RE because they're essentially all the same thing. There's nothing that stops a non IDT RE from being sample based and you have to sign up to be a RE developer to be able to do either. Also, unless you are signed up as a developer, the public has no clue even what version of the SDK is currently available. I'm sure this was probably affected by the community having a negative outlook on something they didn't understand and truly really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately not knowing what was used will probably prompt people to actually try a RE and use their ears instead of relying on preconceived notions which works better for everyone. I think if a RE is good, It'll speak for itself.

[craven]

You could change the title to great REs. As mentioned before, just bringing up IDT could result in trying to find structural differences. Something that does not seem to be relevant (anymore). What is actually relevant to us users in a RE then?

TL;DR: What makes a RE devices great for you?

When it comes to REs, I care about these things:
- usability (includes visual aspects, learning curve, creative use)
- function / sound (if applicable)

- fit to Reason (in terms of overall design approach, modularity and presentation, UI, UX).
To me is important that device design is on par with Propellerhead devices. Since taste is different it is good that I can just buy the devices that I like. That alone seems to be a hot topic here: does a RE need to look good and what does looking good even mean

- price!!!! I like to buy devices for 9 bucks just to a have a nifty new toy to play with. I'm just a hobbies and Reason was always the most playful approach to music making. The design approach of having this virtual rack and mixer console is very engaging to me. I tried other softwares before and after but most of my projects are done mainly with Reason and my RE collection.

I already liked about vanilla Reason that backdrops / templates for Kong and Combinator made my virtual rack became even more personal. This was already a great asset of ReBirth with all its mods both changing sound and visuals. With REs and other stock devices this modding is not possible, if their looks change it might be through a paid or free update. Some REs offer changeable skins programmed into the device. The good side of having only one skin per RE is that it helps to identify REs more quickly. For instance when seeing projects of others, e.g. on social media.

Ironically, I rarely use backdrops anymore for Kong and Combinator but welcome the option of different skins of some REs. In that regard I'd love to see Reason become even more mod-ular again. Let me change looks of devices to create a more personal experience - my virtual studio the way I decide it. Oh, and I'd love to change parts in the mixer window too; not just visually but also the devices such as the compressor and EQ.

What makes RE great for you?

[challism]

One of the down sides of the IDT for the developer is the huge piece that Props take out of the sale. It's a much larger percentage, from what I remember. While the dev doesn't have to write the code, many of these IDT REs have taken the developer a lot of time and money to create the samples. I remember Matt from Jiggery Pokery saying he spent a lot of money recording samples (maybe even renting the instruments) for one of his REs, and it didn't even make it into the shop. Sore topic for him. But it does go to show that the IDTs have a lot of effort put into them, too.

@Craven, oh man, I would love to be able to change out the skins of the REs with something else. Maybe some cute pictures of my cat. But that would be better than some of the ugly GUI on some of the REs.

I edited the title a bit. I didn't want this to be a trash on IDT thread, and I'm glad it didn't turn into that. Maybe it can be an educational thread that IDTs are better than people give them credit. Some of my favorite instruments are IDT.

[selig]

I don't think we should even separate "SDK" RE from IDT RE because they're essentially all the same thing.

I agree there's no reason behind separating them (except to try to diminish them in some way?), but wouldn't say they are essentially the same thing.

The IDT SDK is in a way a subset of the RE SDK, in that I couldn't build any of my REs as an IDT, but one could build any IDT as an RE.

[JiggeryPokery]

One of the down sides of the IDT for the developer is the huge piece that Props take out of the sale. It's a much larger percentage, from what I remember. While the dev doesn't have to write the code, many of these IDT REs have taken the developer a lot of time and money to create the samples. I remember Matt from Jiggery Pokery saying he spent a lot of money recording samples (maybe even renting the instruments) for one of his REs, and it didn't even make it into the shop. Sore topic for him,

You don't remember that

Well, not quite. You're probably thinking of Republik - I think I did mention somewhere it cost a fair chunk and really it wasn't worth the enormous effort in terms of returns, although it's quite a divisive GUI, and as cool as I think I convinced myself it was at the time, I wouldn't do it that way now ! So overall it was a bit of a failed experiment. I do use it a lot, though, there's some really good stuff in there.

When I say "enormous effort", though, I really bloody mean it. Over 4,000 hand-performed, and hand-edited samples, there were no auto-trimming or auto-looping there, each bastard one was manually edited.

The problem is, then you get a shithead like Andrew Skelton who just ripped other peoples' equally hard work and took all pure profit by running his automated and probably cracked copy of Samplit on his probably equally pirated Kontakt samples. He could put any one of his devices together in day. A sampled instrument like Republik, or my old guitar ReFills, that's three solid months of work, 9-5. And there were a lot of people praising his devices, even where it was obvious they sounded terrible. Still, his thrown-together IDT devices frequently made Prop's Recommended list, where afaik no JPS device has ever achieved that. So... that's a bit of a sore point To summarise: he does cock-all, got free front-page marketing and earned plenty; where some of us put in a real effort, and strive for attention to detail, yet get roundly ignored, and end up with sod-all.

There's a fair bit of misinformation here, and ofc there are NDA considerations. What I will note, as this is clearly public info, GE is absolutely and categorically not a subset of the RE SDK. It's a standalone piece of software. That it's been set up to be compatible in some respects with Props' SDK is not the same thing at all.

[selig]

There's a fair bit of misinformation here, and ofc there are NDA considerations. What I will note, as this is clearly public info, GE is absolutely and categorically not a subset of the RE SDK. It's a standalone piece of software. That it's been set up to be compatible in some respects with Props' SDK is not the same thing at all.

Agree totally!

As I said, it is ESSENTIALLY a subset "in that I couldn't build any of my REs as an IDT, but one could build any IDT as an RE".

Very important to understand that distinction, because I am in no way implying or saying it is literally a subset!

[guitfnky]

I don't think we should even separate "SDK" RE from IDT RE because they're essentially all the same thing.

I agree there's no reason behind separating them (except to try to diminish them in some way?), but wouldn't say they are essentially the same thing.

I'm not certain you're referring to this statement of mine:

doesn’t calling out the distinction just perpetuate the perception that IDT devices are different

but either way, I should clarify that the statement was a perhaps inelegant shorthand to reinforce that the distinction is useless from a consumer perspective.

I didn't mean to imply they're the same on a fundamental level, only on a practical end-user level. obviously from a development standpoint, they're probably quite far apart.

[selig]

I'm not certain you're referring to this statement of mine:

Apologies - I wasn't intending to refer to any specific statement, only the general misconception that IDT is somehow "less than" on a quality level than RE.

[guitfnky]

no apologies necessary. just wanted to make sure my post made sense.

[joeyluck]

No need to separate or try to distinguish what the REs are made with.

I also want to chime in to say that THEY ARE REs (Rack Extensions) not INSTRUMENT DEVELOPMENT TOOLKITS! So don't call them "IDTs"

IDT/GE is what is used to make a Rack Extension, it's not used to make another IDT. The only developer who makes the IDT is UJAM

Seems ok to ask if an instrument/synth is sample-based, which can be made with or without the IDT. Something like Re-Tron was not made with the IDT, but it is sample-based and has CV connections just the same as a RE made with the IDT can.

[QVprod]

I don't think we should even separate "SDK" RE from IDT RE because they're essentially all the same thing.

I agree there's no reason behind separating them (except to try to diminish them in some way?), but wouldn't say they are essentially the same thing.

The IDT SDK is in a way a subset of the RE SDK, in that I couldn't build any of my REs as an IDT, but one could build any IDT as an RE.

In the eyes of the end user I meant. The differences only matter to developers.

[challism]

You guys are right, there isn't a good reason to separate the two types of REs. Some of my favorite REs are built on IDT framework, and some more that I still want to pick up I'm pretty sure use it, too. I've edited the title and first post to remove my asking for a creation of a "list." I now see that it really serves no positive purpose. Perhaps this thread can, instead, be used to educate some users who don't like IDTs (sorry I keep calling them that, Joey) and point out why aren't inferior and maybe why they have some added benefit (as pointed out earlier, they are using code that has been built and tested = very solid).

I've seen time and time again people saying something like "that RE is IDT, I don't want to buy it." One valid reason, in my opinion, is the lack of CV on the back. The lack of CV on the back is the only thing that has ever turned me off of an IDT based RE. Other than that, the line between the two gets pretty blurry. I thought Re-Tron was built on IDT. But I guess not... has a bunch of CV on the back.

And Matt, thank you for the time you put into editing those 4000 samples on Republik. I own it and love it and need to use it more often. Sorry you feel it wasn't worth your time, in hindsight, but it is an appreciated device by many.

How many of us would buy a Bitley RE if he took WBF and turned it into an RE? That would probably be built on IDT. And you know it would rock. And we would all want it.

[joeyluck]

You guys are right, there isn't a good reason to separate the two types of REs. Some of my favorite REs are built on IDT framework, and some more that I still want to pick up I'm pretty sure use it, too. I've edited the title and first post to remove my asking for a creation of a "list." I now see that it really serves no positive purpose. Perhaps this thread can, instead, be used to educate some users who don't like IDTs (sorry I keep calling them that, Joey)

Lol

and point out why aren't inferior and maybe why they have some added benefit (as pointed out earlier, they are using code that has been built and tested = very solid).

I've seen time and time again people saying something like "that RE is IDT, I don't want to buy it." One valid reason, in my opinion, is the lack of CV on the back. The lack of CV on the back is the only thing that has ever turned me off of an IDT based RE. Other than that, the line between the two gets pretty blurry. I thought Re-Tron was built on IDT. But I guess not... has a bunch of CV on the back.

As I mentioned, REs made with the IDT can have a bunch of CV on the back too