Phase Issues (Kick/Sub/Layering)

[Wobbleburger]

So, I'm working on a song and I wanted to check to see if my kick has any phase issues with the sub. I have sidechain on but they're both still present at times. Which RE/device would be best to achieve this? I have the CorrElation Phase Analyzer. I guess my real question is how do I test to see if it works? How can I flip the phase of the kick so I can A/B test to see if it's interfering?

Is it as simple as clicking "Flip Phase" in the Correlation Analyzer? I'm unfamiliar with the process but want to maximize my kick on top of the sub.

For context, this video addresses the issue and got me thinking. Ableton is used:

Edit: thank you to anybody reading or replying

[Baylo]

Use the "Inv" button at the very top of the big mixer to invert the phase. I think Selig's Gain RE has an "invert" button, too.

[tibah]

There is a phase switch right at the top of the mixer in Reason. Other than that, I think you're taking about frequency interference and not phase. A phase issue for me would be something about messed up stereo.

[Loque]

All above.

You can invert the phase with Thor if nothing works or if you dont have any RE for it or you dont want to use the SSL Inv button.

I tried in the past the same thing, this guy was talking about. But did oyu noticed, that he has a "out-of-phase(sometimes" sample and a HPF+EQ on it? Do you really think it still looks like he is showing?

In general, everything can go out of pphase if they do not share the exact same tuning (frequency) or are just phase-inverted or phase-off. That means, if you layer kicks and stuff, there is always a risk of phase-problems, especially with low frequncies. If you really, really, really want to take care of it, the only way i know is to use samples, adjust the offsets (this is phases offsetting in the end) or rotate their phase. So you just need to delay the signal or roate it (can be done with a math VST). And in my experience, you will never get those things in phase, and if you get most stuff in phase, the result can still be messy or just peaks too much.

Best thing you can do imo, is create room in the frequency spectrum or the gain-level.

[ScuzzyEye]

There is a phase switch right at the top of the mixer in Reason. Other than that, I think you're taking about frequency interference and not phase. A phase issue for me would be something about messed up stereo.

It's definitely phase that's being talked about here.

A low frequency bass note will also have an oscillating waveform, similar in shape to the sustain of a bass kick. If the sub oscillator is out of phase with the kick, they'll cancel out, and both will sound weak. (Both in exactly phase can clip, so watch the levels. )

[Wobbleburger]

All above.

You can invert the phase with Thor if nothing works or if you dont have any RE for it or you dont want to use the SSL Inv button.

I tried in the past the same thing, this guy was talking about. But did oyu noticed, that he has a "out-of-phase(sometimes" sample and a HPF+EQ on it? Do you really think it still looks like he is showing?

In general, everything can go out of pphase if they do not share the exact same tuning (frequency) or are just phase-inverted or phase-off. That means, if you layer kicks and stuff, there is always a risk of phase-problems, especially with low frequncies. If you really, really, really want to take care of it, the only way i know is to use samples, adjust the offsets (this is phases offsetting in the end) or rotate their phase. So you just need to delay the signal or roate it (can be done with a math VST). And in my experience, you will never get those things in phase, and if you get most stuff in phase, the result can still be messy or just peaks too much.

Best thing you can do imo, is create room in the frequency spectrum or the gain-level.

Wow, excellent answer. I appreciate you taking the time... I'll rethink the samples themselves as I doubt the phase inversion will fix the issue after reading this. Appreciated!

[selig]

So, I'm working on a song and I wanted to check to see if my kick has any phase issues with the sub. I have sidechain on but they're both still present at times. Which RE/device would be best to achieve this? I have the CorElation Phase Analyzer. I guess my real question is how do I test to see if it works? How can I flip the phase of the kick so I can A/B test to see if it's interfering?

Edit: thank you to anybody reading or replying

[EDIT: I was writing this before there where any other answers, so some of what I've said is repeating what was already said!]

The first test is your ears - turn on one channel, then add the other. Reverse the order. Do you hear the first channel change when you add the second? if not, you're fine. If so, read on.

The first possible test/fix is to reverse the polarity of one of the channels and see if there's a preference. Sometimes something slightly out of phase will sound better one way vs the other. Other times you'll hear no difference at all. There is no right or wrong here, it's down to how it sounds to you and what works best in your mix.

The next possible test/fix will involve either a time slip of one or the other tracks (typically the bass so you can keep the kick on the exact beat). Bass typically sounds fine (and sometimes better) coming slightly after the kick, depending on how much attack (high frequency specifically) there is in the bass sound. Brighter attack bass sounds will not survive much delay compared to darker attack (or slower attack) bass sounds). Old school bass players often play slightly behind the kick. Over the years I've look at the kick/bass relationship when recording great players and when things sound particularly good. Every time I've checked, the bass was slightly (a few to as much as 10-20 ms) behind the kick. This works because the kick handles the attack and the bass handles the sustain. So the kick takes up the first few milliseconds then the bass takes over. When done right it's a truly magical thing - but that's for traditional kick/bass sounds -with modern sounds sometimes the old tricks work, sometimes not. But always good to know more than one solution to any issue!

If the bass is coming from a synth, and the synth allows adjusting the phase of the oscillator, you can also try that to see if it makes any difference.

All in all, the differences (if any) will mostly likely be very subtle. This is because the worst case scenario is unlikely to occur 90% of the time. The worst case would be kick and bass at EXACTLY the same frequency, timing, and volume (including the volume envelope) and a precise 180° polarity flip. Any slight deviation from the above will cause any cancellation to be minimized. The good news is that if you find yourself in that scenario, you're lucky because the common polarity flip button will instantly solved all your problems. And any other scenario will likely not cause any major problems in the whole.

[EdGrip]

If I'm trying to layer up a couple of kick samples, I put them both on different Kong pads and link them so they both trigger, give each a Kong output and mix channel, and then adjust the attack and decay times so they overlap in the best way, and then start to tweak their timing - nudging one back and forth relative to the other to see what changes and what sounds best. You can use Normen's sample delay on one pad's output to do this, or the delay compensation feature on the back of the mix channel. Then resample the result.
Or just put the samples on audio tracks in the sequencer and mess with their relative positions.

[Wobbleburger]

So, I'm working on a song and I wanted to check to see if my kick has any phase issues with the sub. I have sidechain on but they're both still present at times. Which RE/device would be best to achieve this? I have the CorElation Phase Analyzer. I guess my real question is how do I test to see if it works? How can I flip the phase of the kick so I can A/B test to see if it's interfering?

Edit: thank you to anybody reading or replying

[EDIT: I was writing this before there where any other answers, so some of what I've said is repeating what was already said!]

The first test is your ears - turn on one channel, then add the other. Reverse the order. Do you hear the first channel change when you add the second? if not, you're fine. If so, read on.

The first possible test/fix is to reverse the polarity of one of the channels and see if there's a preference. Sometimes something slightly out of phase will sound better one way vs the other. Other times you'll hear no difference at all. There is no right or wrong here, it's down to how it sounds to you and what works best in your mix.

The next possible test/fix will involve either a time slip of one or the other tracks (typically the bass so you can keep the kick on the exact beat). Bass typically sounds fine (and sometimes better) coming slightly after the kick, depending on how much attack (high frequency specifically) there is in the bass sound. Brighter attack bass sounds will not survive much delay compared to darker attack (or slower attack) bass sounds). Old school bass players often play slightly behind the kick. Over the years I've look at the kick/bass relationship when recording great players and when things sound particularly good. Every time I've checked, the bass was slightly (a few to as much as 10-20 ms) behind the kick. This works because the kick handles the attack and the bass handles the sustain. So the kick takes up the first few milliseconds then the bass takes over. When done right it's a truly magical thing - but that's for traditional kick/bass sounds -with modern sounds sometimes the old tricks work, sometimes not. But always good to know more than one solution to any issue!

If the bass is coming from a synth, and the synth allows adjusting the phase of the oscillator, you can also try that to see if it makes any difference.

All in all, the differences (if any) will mostly likely be very subtle. This is because the worst case scenario is unlikely to occur 90% of the time. The worst case would be kick and bass at EXACTLY the same frequency, timing, and volume (including the volume envelope) and a precise 180° polarity flip. Any slight deviation from the above will cause any cancellation to be minimized. The good news is that if you find yourself in that scenario, you're lucky because the common polarity flip button will instantly solved all your problems. And any other scenario will likely not cause any major problems in the whole.

This was awesome. Thank you. Sounds like it's not as common as I thought. Fantastic information and the kick/bass trick is clever.

[Loque]

Every time I've checked, the bass was slightly (a few to as much as 10-20 ms) behind the kick.

Hm....i am actually not a big fan of too static timing, so i prefere my notes a bit offbeat in general, but i did not tried yet to consequently delay the bass a little bit...gotta check that in my next project. Thanks for the hint