2nd hand market for REs

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
antic604

21 Jan 2019

platzangst wrote:
18 Jan 2019
"Safer" from what? You're making my point. If you're not buying as many REs now because you don't want to have to eat that entire cost on your own, then good, I think that's a sensible decision. Enabling reselling of REs only provides you with a motive to be more reckless with your purchases, and as you yourself point out, it doesn't benefit Props or the RE developers in any way, so without showing such a benefit, I don't know how any of the people arguing for re-sale think they'd ever make a convincing argument for it.

And just declaring my "image of how to run a business" as being ridiculous doesn't say anything, doesn't say how it's ridiculous. That's just namecalling, son.

This whole business is incoherent. If you think selling your REs to others is unfair to the developers and you wouldn't sell them anyway, then I don't know what the point is of you starting a thread about how it would be nice if one could re-sell REs.
I guess we're just looking at things differently - when you're talking about buying REs you're using labels like "sensible decision", "reckless purchases", "properly manage money", "prioritize spending". It seems like an investment to you, a return-on-equity kind of thing or maybe you're approaching to all your finances like that. That's fine.

For me, music is just a hobby and thus I sometime spend the money irrationally, under the influence of an impulse. And I know I'm not alone. For me, it's ultimately not about the money. I could go right now and buy all the REs I ever laid my eyes on with interest and there wouldn't be a dent in my disposable income. It's just that I don't like having something I don't use and if I could pass it on to someone else at reduced price, with Props & devs still benefitting from it (THAT's how I described my idea, don't know why you said otherwise) then what's wrong with that?! And BTW, Reason does really lousy job constantly reminding me of the things I bought but don't need, by installing ALL THE REs when I click "sync all", so that's not helping. With VSTs at least I can delete them from my HDD and never install again. I just don't like clutter and find it annoying browsing through an endless list of devices, so - as stupid as this may sound, I know - an option to hide and not install/update REs I choose would be enough for me to buy more REs :D

I never sold any VST or DAW that I own, because a) I still think I might need it in the future, when I have more time for music, b) as I said it's not about the money (for me, at least). But I take comfort in having that option available to me, should I ever need it.

Lastly, I appreciate your idealistic stance that you'd prefer to sell fewer copies to people that really want your stuff, as opposed to sell more but to people who might be there to only "try it out". But Props are owned by an investment fund now, so running business is about squeezing every penny out of each invested Dollar. So if there's money to be made on 2nd hand market, then it's smart to at least investigate that possibility. Maybe the cut they'd take on re-sold REs would be 50% lower, but maybe having the "safety net" they'd sell 2x more REs to the 1st time users too? Or people would re-sell the REs numerous times, thus actually multiplying that profit? It's obviously anecdotal evidence, but on a local Reason FB group I've seen no RE mentioned in last 7-8 months, even a HUGE one like Complex-1! People either post their music, or ask for feedback about ...VSTs, their performance, etc. So if Props made the 1st step and opened their DAW to VSTs, they should make the next one and give the RE developers a fighting chance to compete.

I really keep my fingers crossed that Props are able to pull off everything they've been showcasing in that JUCE presentation, but let's be realistic - there's huge amount of money involved in standardising the cross-platform audio protocols, there's many more much bigger players and rarely the best solution wins. Props might have had the foresight, the vision and the technology. But they don't have the numbers - of both users and developers. When was the last time you saw a big developer entering the RE platform?

User avatar
platzangst
Posts: 728
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

22 Jan 2019

antic604 wrote:
21 Jan 2019
It's just that I don't like having something I don't use and if I could pass it on to someone else at reduced price, with Props & devs still benefitting from it (THAT's how I described my idea, don't know why you said otherwise)
Because you say things like
antic604 wrote:
18 Jan 2019
I probably wouldn't sell them either in the end, though. The thought of "trading them with my buddies" never even crossed my mind, because I believe it's unfair to developers in the same way like I don't subscribe to streaming services like Spotify and instead get my music directly from labels & artists (mostly via Bandcamp), making sure they get my money.
and unless I missed it, you didn't really seem to offer a plan as to how, exactly, you would make a 2nd hand market work, up until this very post!

I mean, it's nice to say "wouldn't it be nice if", but that's all it is unless there's some kind of feasible plan to go along with it.
antic604 wrote:
21 Jan 2019
But Props are owned by an investment fund now, so running business is about squeezing every penny out of each invested Dollar. So if there's money to be made on 2nd hand market, then it's smart to at least investigate that possibility.
Okay, but that's also part of my point. Most of the discussion of this, heretofore, has been along the idea that one "sells" an RE much like one sells a VST (or even Reason itself), in that parties agree and money changes hands and all the original company gets, if anything, is the job of sorting out the new name on the license. In such a case, you have two scenarios, where if REs can't be resold, then all the money from all sales goes to Props and the RE devs, or if RE resale is allowed, then each license has an initial sale that goes to Props and the devs, and every subsequent sale goes to other private owners, nothing to Props or devs. In that case, you can argue whether the people seeking cheap REs would or would not ever pay full price if they didn't have the option to buy used REs, but you won't ever have more than just a personal hunch on what would really happen, so it's impossible to predict whether there's actually any more pennies to squeeze out of that dollar.

(At least for us laymen. It's quite possible Props have already had some kind of snazzy business analysis going on behind the scenes and have long ago determined that RE resales were just not a good idea, profit-wise.)
antic604 wrote:
21 Jan 2019
Maybe the cut they'd take on re-sold REs would be 50% lower, but maybe having the "safety net" they'd sell 2x more REs to the 1st time users too? Or people would re-sell the REs numerous times, thus actually multiplying that profit?
Okay, this is actually kind of the rough outline of an idea of, what..? A market administered by Props themselves? Well, then, figure this in: whatever it is, you'd have to sink money into it to make it function, i.e., another web-based project that has to be able to track all the users' REs, put them up for re-sale, take the money, divvy it up between three parties, and then swap the licenses. So you're already down the cost of development plus an ongoing cost of running/maintaining servers (and handing customer complaints when something cocks up).

Now, take all that and then what happens when you try to sell a $9 Skrock synth? Well, first the seller devalues it a bit, to maybe $7 to make it appealing to a bargain hunter, then if the buyer agrees to the sale, he pays that $7 to Props. How much does the seller get? Do you say 50%? Hooray, $3.50 is... what? Credited to your Paypal account? A bank or credit card? Someone's taking part of that in some kind of transfer fee, I bet. And then the other $3.50 is split between Props and the dev, and if I remember, Props' share of new sales is supposedly 30% (anyone feel free to correct this if I'm wrong), so the dev gets $2.45 (less transfer fees) and Props gets a buck and a nickel (less transfer fees) Now, considering that I've heard that $9 is the minimum price for a synth (aside from free) simply because lower prices aren't worth the effort involved, re-selling REs for under $9 would seem to be a non-starter right from the gate. Perhaps it might be workable for REs over a certain amount, but consider that now you have an entirely new range of complaints available. The seller's share is too little, perhaps, or some cheap synths can't be sold, or something we haven't even thought of yet.
antic604 wrote:
21 Jan 2019
It's obviously anecdotal evidence, but on a local Reason FB group I've seen no RE mentioned in last 7-8 months, even a HUGE one like Complex-1! People either post their music, or ask for feedback about ...VSTs, their performance, etc. So if Props made the 1st step and opened their DAW to VSTs, they should make the next one and give the RE developers a fighting chance to compete.
I don't really think that opening REs up to re-sale makes them any more or less "competitive". I really don't follow that logic. Or are you talking about something else entirely, now?


antic604 wrote:
21 Jan 2019
I just don't like clutter and find it annoying browsing through an endless list of devices, so - as stupid as this may sound, I know - an option to hide and not install/update REs I choose would be enough for me to buy more REs
For what it's worth, I think this is probably far more do-able, from a purely technical angle, and frankly I'd welcome a few options for tidying up device lists myself.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

22 Jan 2019

Just some thoughts:
For this to work the seller cannot set the price (it's full price), the Props would have to take a cut to cover admin, and to be totally honest I'm not sure why the dev would get ANYTHING in this transaction, as much as it pains me to say so! ;)

I don't have a clue what the percentages would be that the Props would need to take to cover admin costs, but let's say it's between 10 and 30% and the seller gets the rest. And I'm guessing that there would be no cash refunds, only store credits for future purchases.

With this scenario, all parties are already setup for commerce, there's no advantage to the buyer so there's no way to undercut existing sales, and the seller gets less than what they paid (which is already common and what most above have suggested anyway).

This would therefore function more as an "exchange", as all proceeds would be as store credits and would therefore have to be used to re-invest in new products (not necessarily REs).

That's really the only way I could see this working from the Props angle. Not sure it would be good enough for anyone to take advantage of, which may be why it's not been implemented to date. Maybe there are variations on this that would improve the situation, but this is what I've concluded (and what I would have no problem supporting as a dev and as a user).
Selig Audio, LLC

kitekrazy
Posts: 1036
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

23 Jan 2019

Loque wrote:
16 Jan 2019
I wish here and there i could sell some RE which i nearly never use. They just clutter my browser. But VSTs are not a good option either, since on a HD crash you may loose a lot of your licenses. I cross my fingers, that this is not happened to me yet, but it was very close on last crash - just before the system finally died, i could unlock a few important license including my Windows license which would easily cost more than 100 bucks. Thank god, that there are also some serial-only and online account-stuff licenses and not only iLok BS.

I am actually very happy that my RE and Reason license are still accessible after all those HD and system deads i had in the last time. I will see, when it comes to the "i need to contact the support" thing...
Tell me bout it. Reason is like my other DAWs now taking longer to open with VST scans.

User avatar
michal22
Posts: 212
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Poland

23 Jan 2019

I am for the RE exchange. I currently have a lot of extensions that I do not use, and maybe they will please others. I believe that a developer and Propellerhead tax should be charged on the transaction. It is still better than the usual resale of VST without taxes. I think that such a stock market will attract people and increase the overall influence for the creators. Developers can always do updates of existing products - for money, of course. :D :thumbs_up:
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

User avatar
O1B
Posts: 2037
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

23 Jan 2019

Ouch! :shock: 😲 :o 😵

Violations of all kinds of ECON101 rules/principles right there...
selig wrote:
22 Jan 2019
Just some thoughts:
For this to work the seller cannot set the price

Hydrosonic
Posts: 81
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

23 Jan 2019

Why are people even against this? Do you work for PH? I see no problem with been able to buy and sell... If you are against buying and selling then you don't want a free market, thus even buying an RE should be wrong in your view. As they are selling and you are buying. PH are reasonably retarded, noooooo VSTs... Noooooo Audio recording!!. Noooo MIDI!!!!.......... Hell will freeze over!!! Yet they have had to grow up, stop been childish and understand people needed it before people left their authoritarian playground! PH are so bad for this shit, NO FRONT SIDE CABLES!!!!!!!!! COMPLEX>>>>>>>>>>>>......................... Oh yeah breaking their own rules........... I've not bought an RE for over 3 years due to their retarded rule of note allowing people to sell their purchase. Not allowing resales is as retarded as not having midi........ PH are just shooting themselves in the foot.

User avatar
platzangst
Posts: 728
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

23 Jan 2019

Hydrosonic wrote:
23 Jan 2019
Why are people even against this? Do you work for PH?
If you'll read closely, I think you'll find that nobody is actually against re-selling REs. Seriously, try to find anyone who says they're against it.

What some of us are pointing out, though, is that there's a difference between saying "I want this to happen" and the real-world problems and complications of actually making it happen. PH, like any business, has to weigh the costs and benefits of every decision before they make changes.

And, for my part, I'm also pointing out that in general, the arguments that have been put forth for re-selling REs seem to be little more than damage control for impulse buying. That isn't being against re-sales, it's criticizing the arguments being made as well as some peoples' buying habits.

User avatar
jayhosking
Posts: 613
Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Contact:

23 Jan 2019

Hydrosonic wrote:
23 Jan 2019
Can you stop with the denigrating language?

Hydrosonic
Posts: 81
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

23 Jan 2019

jayhosking wrote:
23 Jan 2019
Hydrosonic wrote:
23 Jan 2019
Can you stop with the denigrating language?
And you felt the need to make this post? why even bother? I will hazard a guess you were one of those that didn't want midi, or VSTs? Get your head back in your hole Some of us are trying to make this platform more user and customer friendly, so are just holding this back. No doubt it will be another 4 years before I bother to upgrade Reason. This platform moves slower than an oil tanker tbh. even slight improvements are see as ground breaking. We're all fully bored of waiting for PH to actually become relevant. In this day and age they are so out of touch with their own user base, it has become pointless trying to tell them. I guess you will see the same old.. we need an 8 knob combinatior... or a new sampler... in 5 years time... because they are not listening. But I get told to stop my "Denigrating Language" Hold your breathe mate, cos I won't stop for you!

User avatar
jayhosking
Posts: 613
Joined: 28 Nov 2016
Contact:

23 Jan 2019

Hydrosonic wrote:
23 Jan 2019
The fact that you’re functionally illiterate isn’t on me. Language like “retarded” is really shitty and denigrating, and totally unnecessary on a board about Reason (let alone anywhere else). And while you’re working on building your vocabulary, maybe check your logic on “you either agree with me or you don’t believe in a free market” and “I represent the voice of the true Reason users!” In the free market of ideas, yours aren’t exactly demanding a high price, here.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

23 Jan 2019

O1B wrote:Ouch! :shock: [emoji44] :o [emoji43]

Violations of all kinds of ECON101 rules/principles right there...
selig wrote:
22 Jan 2019
Just some thoughts:
For this to work the seller cannot set the price
Would you pay for it if it was higher?

Would it work for the dev and the Props if it was lower?

New concepts apply here, old “101” concepts obviously don’t apply. If they did, there would have never been a product you cannot re-sell in the first place… ;)


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

23 Jan 2019

jayhosking wrote:
Hydrosonic wrote:
23 Jan 2019
The fact that you’re functionally illiterate isn’t on me. Language like “retarded” is really shitty and denigrating, and totally unnecessary on a board about Reason (let alone anywhere else). And while you’re working on building your vocabulary, maybe check your logic on “you either agree with me or you don’t believe in a free market” and “I represent the voice of the true Reason users!” In the free market of ideas, yours aren’t exactly demanding a high price, here.
OK both of you, no personal attacks, let’s elevate this discussion to adult level please.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Selig Audio, LLC

Post Reply
  • Information