Propellerhead Partners with MIND Music Labs For Rack Extension Hardware Integration

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jlgrimes
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Post 09 Jan 2019

https://www.musicradar.com/news/propell ... o-hardware

This is a great idea. It can open up the Rack Extension concept to hardware synths.

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aeox
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Post 09 Jan 2019

Random songs/ideas go here:
https://soundcloud.com/ae-ox/polar/s-Ocxtj

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selig
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Post 09 Jan 2019

Data_Shrine wrote:
09 Jan 2019
I hope this translates into 1:1 hardware of a particular RE, that can also double as a 1:1 MIDI controller of said RE in Reason.
It should be 1:1 processing, in that the code that's running as an RE will run on the hardware processor (assuming the processor can handle the CPU load of the RE). What's still left for consideration would be I/O, with things like CV (at what rate, for example) and amount of audio I/O supported still left unanswered.

For the MIDI controller part, a USB connection should suffice - which will lead to the issue of supporting a USB port for each hardware device you add. This would only be a problem if you're building 500 series or Eurorack modules I would think.

Still too early to say for sure, but I'm definitely interested in where this will lead.
:)
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jlgrimes
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Post 09 Jan 2019

Data_Shrine wrote:
09 Jan 2019
I hope this translates into 1:1 hardware of a particular RE, that can also double as a 1:1 MIDI controller of said RE in Reason.
I'm guessing something more inline with Akai VIP or NI Komplete Kontrol.

This would be better though if you could eliminate the laptop and would probably benefit live performers (which is what I do). Haven't seen the hardware but if they had a good touchscreen interface, probably whole RE can be controlled from screen + dedicated buttons for changing patches. Would be cool to get the hardware box and within a simple download, have all of your REs in a fun portable device.

Also, it opens up the idea of Reason going to Linux. Probably further down the line.

Maybe someday REs could be included in other DAWS as well.

Nonetheless an additional revenue stream for REs, which can only be a good thing.

I'm guessing this will be fairly expensive as you would need a decent sized Harddrive (most likely SSD), probably touch screen display, and then you add keys, knobs, text entry (probably could be done via touchscreen)

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Faastwalker
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Post 09 Jan 2019

Not had a chance to read the article yet. There seems to be various interpretations of what it means. But I've just seen a post from Synthtopia on Facebook that states, 'Propellerhead announces plans to make Rack Extensions available as hardware'. Is that about the size of it?

http://www.synthtopia.com/content/2019/ ... -hardware/

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EnochLight
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Post 10 Jan 2019

fretshot7 wrote:
09 Jan 2019
imagine some cool teenage engineering device running REs ... like the synth engines in op-z are REs or a pocket operator with Vk-2 😀
I suggested this in the earlier thread when the video was being discussed. Teenage Engineering hardware would be the perfect partner for stuff like this, IMHO. And an old Props alumni - Magnus from Sonic Charge - who made Malstrom - is already familiar with getting his plugins working on Teenage E’s hardware.

Really hoping something happens!
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electrofux
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Post 10 Jan 2019

I first thought this is something totally new and PH are ahead of competitors with it. But then i read that they already support VST.
So there could have already been some devices available on the market which run VSTs but there aren't many (is there even one?).
Maybe PH have some better access to their developers and can support them better to get devices to the market but we have to see how that evolves.
To get excited i need to hear what hardware is actually planned, what developers are on board etc. Atm it just reads as, we support ELK and thats it. Potentially cool but not much to see on the horizon tbh.

botnotbot
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Post 10 Jan 2019

electrofux wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I first thought this is something totally new and PH are ahead of competitors with it. But then i read that they already support VST.
So there could have already been some devices available on the market which run VSTs but there aren't many (is there even one?).
Maybe PH have some better access to their developers and can support them better to get devices to the market but we have to see how that evolves.
To get excited i need to hear what hardware is actually planned, what developers are on board etc. Atm it just reads as, we support ELK and thats it. Potentially cool but not much to see on the horizon tbh.
I believe that this is a misconception. IIRC VSTs are supported in the sense that one can compile a JUCE plugin into something that the ELK can understand. But for sure one cannot just install any VST you want onto it. ELK is a platform for people building hardware, it's not hardware itself. So u-He could make a custom hardware synth with ELK, with one of their VSTs.

In contrast, Props has the ability to compile all REs for any target platform. This is a major distinction -- all 500 plugins arrive with zero intervention for the user or the third party developers.

This announcement means that Props is working with ELK on custom hardware. Not every device with ELK inside will necessarily run REs. It's like Props saying "we are going to use Intel processors in some hardware". It's a component available to instrument makers, not a generic platform.

My guesses: an MPC style instrument, a keyboard similar to NI Kontrol, and a mixer interface designed for using effect REs.

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ejanuska
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Post 10 Jan 2019

I can't get too excited over this. Someone has to build the hardware to run this OS, and it has to have some power, some decent audio IO, and some kind of user interface. Touchscreen/Knobs/Combo. I suppose a tablet could run the OS with some dongle or docking station, but what does that look like? Installing this OS on top of Android or an iPad? I don't think so. It's an OS so some sort of hardware standardization is in order. That sounds expensive to me.

You know what they say; Cheap, fast, good....Pick two.

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EnochLight
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Post 10 Jan 2019

ejanuska wrote:
10 Jan 2019
I can't get too excited over this. Someone has to build the hardware to run this OS, and it has to have some power, some decent audio IO, and some kind of user interface. Touchscreen/Knobs/Combo. I suppose a tablet could run the OS with some dongle or docking station, but what does that look like? Installing this OS on top of Android or an iPad? I don't think so. It's an OS so some sort of hardware standardization is in order. That sounds expensive to me.

You know what they say; Cheap, fast, good....Pick two.
So... it would be too expensive?

Taking into consideration a decent hardware synth costs upwards of $500-$1000, what would an average user's price point have to be in order to get - say for instance - something like Europa, Complex-1, or SAW-1 as a fully functional piece of hardware that you could play on stage and gig with? Or what about Softube's FET?

I dunno - this is clearly still to early in the planning stage to see what will come of it, but I can see all sorts of useful scenarios - price be damned.
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Loque
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Post 10 Jan 2019

Mentioning Complex-1 is an interesting point. Most synths can be easily controlled through a remote interface. But Complex-1's cables or other custom displays can be a big problem. This can probably only be solved by a display or some kind of extra workaround like a "virtual connection pad" for each source/destination.
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rcbuse
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Post 10 Jan 2019

Perhaps we will see some kind of UAD style hardware Reason accelerator. You could seamlessly offload your rack extensions DSP. That would be pretty cool.

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Loque
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Post 10 Jan 2019

rcbuse wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Perhaps we will see some kind of UAD style hardware Reason accelerator. You could seamlessly offload your rack extensions DSP. That would be pretty cool.
Uhh...that is interesting...Rendering the sounds on ultra high quality in realtime :thumbs_up:
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

borracho
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Post 11 Jan 2019

rcbuse wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Perhaps we will see some kind of UAD style hardware Reason accelerator. You could seamlessly offload your rack extensions DSP. That would be pretty cool.
that's what I was thinking about when reading these news

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Data_Shrine
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Post 11 Jan 2019

eusti wrote:
09 Jan 2019
Data_Shrine wrote:
09 Jan 2019
I hope this translates into 1:1 hardware of a particular RE, that can also double as a 1:1 MIDI controller of said RE in Reason.
Huh... Interesting thought... I'd think more the other way around, as I'd be surprised if the numbers for you're suggesting would work at all... I thought this would be to use any of your REs freely without the need for your computer...

D.
There is a huge creative advantage to having 1:1 controls. For exemple, in the System-8 & SH-01A threads in gearslutz, a lot of owners of the System-8 (which is some kind of specialized MIDI controller/digital hardware synth, that can run many "plug-outs" aka some Rolands VST by itself, without a computer) also stated that they bought the SH-01A, which is basically a 1:1 hardware controller for the SH-101 plug-out/VST. It has a few differences, but still the reason stated was that you have dedicated controls for everything. I have a SH-01A and I really like it.

So as you can see, this can be applied to an RE and an hardware running an RE with 1:1 controls, instead of a "do-it-all" kind of machine. Of course, this would cost more money, but we would really get the best of both world.. and then some !

But I do see your point, of having some kind of tablet/hardware thing with MIDI connections, I/O ports, a kind of practical do-it-all. I'm not very excited by the prospect of touch screens for my synths, but hey, both points of view are valid. If it's a device that can run everything, then I hope the touch screen can process more than 1 finger "input" at the same time, because if not, it'll be a total waste.

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Re8et
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Post 12 Jan 2019

rcbuse wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Perhaps we will see some kind of UAD style hardware Reason accelerator. You could seamlessly offload your rack extensions DSP. That would be pretty cool.
I am dreaming of a Sid based Berry at this point, but Reason accellerator? Running one Vk-2 on my i3 2006 lappy?
Still there's need of some serious recoding here for the hardware itself, I have a couple Shark chips here I can donate to science, if anyone needs them... But also the shift to Arm based iOTs... that would give a lot of processing headroom, and bypass Gpio limitations of Pi itself alltogether :shock:

https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/view ... ?p=1409550
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Re8et
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Post 12 Jan 2019

:o I completely missed the part where it says it can run on x86 processors and... it can run on pretty much any CPU that runs Linux, definitely the ELK Reason Accellerator what's it name can be a very scary monster of a god itself

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Re8et
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Post 12 Jan 2019

Loque wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Mentioning Complex-1 is an interesting point. Most synths can be easily controlled through a remote interface. But Complex-1's cables or other custom displays can be a big problem. This can probably only be solved by a display or some kind of extra workaround like a "virtual connection pad" for each source/destination.

Time for a Reason standalone/Vst editor? Virtual connection pad... you mean touch???

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Loque
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Post 12 Jan 2019

Re8et wrote:
12 Jan 2019
Loque wrote:
10 Jan 2019
Mentioning Complex-1 is an interesting point. Most synths can be easily controlled through a remote interface. But Complex-1's cables or other custom displays can be a big problem. This can probably only be solved by a display or some kind of extra workaround like a "virtual connection pad" for each source/destination.

Time for a Re0ason standalone/Vst editor? Virtual connection pad... you mean touch???
Touch, yes.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

baloo
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Post 12 Jan 2019

On ELK site big accent on ultra-low latency.. and they write as example buffer 256 and 5ms?
It’s not ultralow as I understand. It’s mid solution.
Now many years we know RME, Apogee and more premial pyramix or Aurora with real 1.5ms at 64. It’s ultralow latency.
Another is marketing.
But understand that packaging RE into Linux box can have some limits.
Wait with interesting how it work in latency way. Somebody can work with 5ms and 256 without problems, some users that try to use few boxes for fix chain - sum latencies

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EnochLight
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Post 12 Jan 2019

baloo wrote:
12 Jan 2019
On ELK site big accent on ultra-low latency.. and they write as example buffer 256 and 5ms?
It’s not ultralow as I understand. It’s mid solution.
Now many years we know RME, Apogee and more premial pyramix or Aurora with real 1.5ms at 64. It’s ultralow latency.
Another is marketing.
But understand that packaging RE into Linux box can have some limits.
Wait with interesting how it work in latency way. Somebody can work with 5ms and 256 without problems, some users that try to use few boxes for fix chain - sum latencies
Pretty sure ELK is talking real 5ms latency, which is basically hardware territory. With Apogee, RME, and any other audio interface that requires a fully fledged computer and a DAW running on Windows or OSX, etc to operate, the total roundtrip latency is always higher than 1.5ms at 64. Anyway, even if it's 5ms - that's still incredibly impressive (and basically hardware latency) for an ARM platform. You can easily perform live at 5ms latency.
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joeyluck
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Post 12 Jan 2019

I know it may seem early, but curious if we might see something showcased at NAMM opening January 24...

I imagine they have been working on the tech before casually announcing, and then official announcing, that they were partnering. And MIND Music Labs will have a booth there...

baloo
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Post 12 Jan 2019

EnochLight wrote:
12 Jan 2019
With Apogee, RME, and any other audio interface that requires a fully fledged computer and a DAW running on Windows or OSX, etc to operate, the total roundtrip latency is always higher than 1.5ms at 64.
Just look and better try Lynx AES16e or Aurora8
Roundtrip is 1.34ms for 64.
It’s real world class devices with lowest latency many years.



I talk about it only because Balance also be presented as low latency interface, but roundtrip is about 14 ms at 256.

5ms is enough if you use one device in chain. But if you use few boxes with output latency include input latency..
not all live setups like this.

But for one box 5ms is really enough to play. More questions to sync recordings from box to pc

Yes, ELK was presented year ago at NAMM, and VST support announced as remember near of September.
After playing with Europa in box, we can really look soon at NAMM any interesting news.
So, ELK really positive news for Reason users

Very interesting at hardware side, there only massive solution to user boxes, or dev pcb coming too?

I ask because if props released dev pcb and save integration of RE, devs can go into digital hardware world to create own devices, create not only GUI to RE, but also create design for own hardware products.
Not clear what is wait us.

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EnochLight
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Post 12 Jan 2019

baloo wrote:
12 Jan 2019
Just look and better try Lynx AES16e or Aurora8
Roundtrip is 1.34ms for 64.
It’s real world class devices with lowest latency many years.
And you still need to haul a computer around, running an OS, and a DAW, and your plugins, and a MIDI controller - to play. I think we can all agree that ELK-powered hardware running your favorite plugins will be a far superior solution for gigging musicians that desire their RE's but also value portability and simplicity and a hardware experience, for sure. :puf_smile:
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baloo
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Post 12 Jan 2019

Yes it’s cool because from Reason 6.5 RE start I ask props about external DSP, and now it’s a real)

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