RV7000 MKII and other convolution reverbs

[slightlyprog]

I'm curious if anyone has compared the sound of the RV7000 with other convo reverbs using the same IRs and if there is any difference?

In theory, one would think that so long as no processing is enabled, that all convo reverbs would sound the same given the same IRs. But I have seen opinions on other forums that there are differences. In general though, other forums rarely ever include the RV7000 in such discussions.

I have been using it regularly for years and have been happy with it but now I am doing a project where I want certain digital reverb sounds to be very accurate (mainly Lex 224).

[two shoes]

i don't think any of the classic Lex studio reverb units were convo based - i don't think convo even existed in the late 70s to mid 80s heyday of Lexicon hardware reverb units, but there are a bunch of good algorithmic reverb plugins that aim for that Lexicon sound with varying degrees of success. the best reverbs of that style that I've come across in the RE format are the DR-1 deep reverb from Synapse and another reverb called AD 480 that's a few years old but I really like some of the Lexicon type sounds I've been getting from it. if absolute fidelity to a Lexicon 224 unit is your priority you might want to look into some vst algo reverb options as well. for years and years the Lexicon native series of vsts reverbs were the only thing I used because I hadn't found anything else that sounded as good to me. these days there are boatloads of great reverbs but maybe the Lexicon ones if they're still around or something they've licensed (i know UAD makes vst versions of some Lexicon units probly incl the 224) would be the closes to their classic digital hardware? I'm not sure but I doubt many people are so intimately familiar with those Lexicon units that they wouldn't be satisfied with a good approximation like the DR-1 or AD 480. i'm curious what you're working on that nailing a Lex 224 sound is important to?

[QVprod]

i don't think any of the classic Lex studio reverb units were convo based - i don't think convo even existed in the late 70s to mid 80s heyday of Lexicon hardware reverb units, but there are a bunch of good algorithmic reverb plugins that aim for that Lexicon sound with varying degrees of success. the best reverbs of that style that I've come across in the RE format are the DR-1 deep reverb from Synapse and another reverb called AD 480 that's a few years old but I really like some of the Lexicon type sounds I've been getting from it. if absolute fidelity to a Lexicon 224 unit is your priority you might want to look into some vst algo reverb options as well. for years and years the Lexicon native series of vsts reverbs were the only thing I used because I hadn't found anything else that sounded as good to me. these days there are boatloads of great reverbs but maybe the Lexicon ones if they're still around or something they've licensed (i know UAD makes vst versions of some Lexicon units probly incl the 224) would be the closes to their classic digital hardware? I'm not sure but I doubt many people are so intimately familiar with those Lexicon units that they wouldn't be satisfied with a good approximation like the DR-1 or AD 480. i'm curious what you're working on that nailing a Lex 224 sound is important to?

I believe he's referring to impulse responses sampled from a Lex 224. Hence the question of RV7000 vs other convolution reverbs. Whether one is more accurate at reproducing the impulse response than another.

[tanni]

I dont know if different convolution reverbs sounds different with the same impulses.
But I feel that Altiverb has the best sound of all convolution reverbs that I heard. Maybe that was because it has the best impulse responses.

[jam-s]

I dont know if different convolution reverbs sounds different with the same impulses.
But I feel that Altiverb has the best sound of all convolution reverbs that I heard. Maybe that was because it has the best impulse responses.

If they do sound different while in convolution mode and level matched, I'd consider this to be a bug as convolution is a straight forward and mathematically exact thing to do.

[seqoi]

If they do sound different while in convolution mode and level matched, I'd consider this to be a bug as convolution is a straight forward and mathematically exact thing to do.

This above ++

If two different convo reverb plugins does not sound same with same IR sample - then it should be a bug in one of them

[two shoes]

i don't think any of the classic Lex studio reverb units were convo based - i don't think convo even existed in the late 70s to mid 80s heyday of Lexicon hardware reverb units, but there are a bunch of good algorithmic reverb plugins that aim for that Lexicon sound with varying degrees of success. the best reverbs of that style that I've come across in the RE format are the DR-1 deep reverb from Synapse and another reverb called AD 480 that's a few years old but I really like some of the Lexicon type sounds I've been getting from it. if absolute fidelity to a Lexicon 224 unit is your priority you might want to look into some vst algo reverb options as well. for years and years the Lexicon native series of vsts reverbs were the only thing I used because I hadn't found anything else that sounded as good to me. these days there are boatloads of great reverbs but maybe the Lexicon ones if they're still around or something they've licensed (i know UAD makes vst versions of some Lexicon units probly incl the 224) would be the closes to their classic digital hardware? I'm not sure but I doubt many people are so intimately familiar with those Lexicon units that they wouldn't be satisfied with a good approximation like the DR-1 or AD 480. i'm curious what you're working on that nailing a Lex 224 sound is important to?

I believe he's referring to impulse responses sampled from a Lex 224. Hence the question of RV7000 vs other convolution reverbs. Whether one is more accurate at reproducing the impulse response than another.

oh sorry, i misunderstood what he was trying to do. i thought it was hard to reproduce classic digital reverbs sounds very accurately with convolution plugins due to chorusing effects that IRs don't capture and also difficulties with very long tails but I may be behind the times.

I tried a few free Lexicon IR sets a few years back and didn't end up keeping any of them. for me it's hard to judge how close a plugin reverb is to a real Lexicon reverb unless the material is the kind of stuff I'm used to hearing with that type of reverb on it - so I guess what I'm judging is just how "good" something sounds as opposed to how close it is to an actual 224 or 480 or whatever. I guess this is probably true for anyone who doesn't have lots of experience with the hardware.

[MrFigg]

I know RV7000 is a great reverb but how does it compare in functionality to the Kilohearts Convolver. I'm trying to decide whether to get the KHS while it's on sale. While I'm on the subject, what about Convology XT by Impulse Record. I have a feeling that Convolver is just what you expect from Kilohearts. A unit which does what it says on the box. Any input?

Edit: Just tried Convology XT and it really is very cool.

[Loque]

I know RV7000 is a great reverb but how does it compare in functionality to the Kilohearts Convolver. I'm trying to decide whether to get the KHS while it's on sale. While I'm on the subject, what about Convology XT by Impulse Record. I have a feeling that Convolver is just what you expect from Kilohearts. A unit which does what it says on the box. Any input?

Edit: Just tried Convology XT and it really is very cool.

It's a convolution reverb. That's it.
It shines in Multipass or Phaseplant with polyphony as a resonator or tone Generator.

[MrFigg]

I know RV7000 is a great reverb but how does it compare in functionality to the Kilohearts Convolver. I'm trying to decide whether to get the KHS while it's on sale. While I'm on the subject, what about Convology XT by Impulse Record. I have a feeling that Convolver is just what you expect from Kilohearts. A unit which does what it says on the box. Any input?

Edit: Just tried Convology XT and it really is very cool.

It's a convolution reverb. That's it.
It shines in Multipass or Phaseplant with polyphony as a resonator or tone Generator.

Thanks. That's what I thought. I think you just saved me $16 .

[Mataya]

I got Convology XT with my AVID Carbon purchase and got a standard IR library with it. Got to say, while there are different types of presets and reverb "settings" that goes along with a shiny picture of a particular old dusty device, it all sounds the same to me. What I mean by that is that I'm previewing a hall preset from a blueish lexicon and and after that a shorter hall from a M7 bricasti and I hear...a reverb again, a bit shorter, a bit different eq, maybe a different density. Going trough presets it feels like the same reverb with a different settings. Seems to me that if you give me an algorithmic reverb with a lot of features built in the device, I could recreate any preset from a famous devices that I see here on the presets pic.(Pretty bold right?) I work in post and I pretty much use the same Nuendo stock algorithmic reverb called Revelation and I get the sound I need pretty much every time I use it and also Netflix is not complaining, Dreamworks is not complaining, HBO, Turner...etc. So do I need more reverb devices? Seems like not.

tx
M

[selig]

i don't think any of the classic Lex studio reverb units were convo based - i don't think convo even existed in the late 70s to mid 80s heyday of Lexicon hardware reverb units, but there are a bunch of good algorithmic reverb plugins that aim for that Lexicon sound with varying degrees of success. the best reverbs of that style that I've come across in the RE format are the DR-1 deep reverb from Synapse and another reverb called AD 480 that's a few years old but I really like some of the Lexicon type sounds I've been getting from it. if absolute fidelity to a Lexicon 224 unit is your priority you might want to look into some vst algo reverb options as well. for years and years the Lexicon native series of vsts reverbs were the only thing I used because I hadn't found anything else that sounded as good to me. these days there are boatloads of great reverbs but maybe the Lexicon ones if they're still around or something they've licensed (i know UAD makes vst versions of some Lexicon units probly incl the 224) would be the closes to their classic digital hardware? I'm not sure but I doubt many people are so intimately familiar with those Lexicon units that they wouldn't be satisfied with a good approximation like the DR-1 or AD 480. i'm curious what you're working on that nailing a Lex 224 sound is important to?

Totally agree, if you want the full Lexicon sound you need an algorithmic device due to the random effect on the tail (my favorite part of Lexicon reverbs). Think of convolution like a sampler - some things can be done effectively, others are more obviously ‘sampled’ when you only have one sample to work with.
I have the UAD Lexicon plugins and love them, but never compared side by side with the original. It’s been 40 years since I worked with an original 224, a good bit less for 480, and still have one of my original PCM-70s (but it has a display problem at present), so while I’m well familiar with “the sound”, doing a side by side comparison is really the only way to know for sure how authentic the sound is IMO.

[AnotherMathias]

It's a convolution reverb. That's it.
It shines in Multipass or Phaseplant with polyphony as a resonator or tone Generator.

Thanks. That's what I thought. I think you just saved me $16 .

If I was working away from Reason (and not using the RRP), I'd give the Kilohearts Convolver a good look. I like it because it's small, fast, and easy to audition a lot of impulses quickly. It doesn't have a lot of added functionality, which for me is a good thing - recent convolution engines are a bit unnecessary cluttered and fussy, including those that are built in DAWs.
With convolution there's just so much character and variety available within each IR (with the limitations mentioned above), that I usually just run them as-is.

Compared to RV7000, the Kilohearts one is actually quite a bit less feature-some. The one unique thing I can see that it has is a feedback option. Together with the delay function, I can imagine that you can make some interesting echo effects.

My secret echo weapon in Reason is to have a selection of single-repeat analog/tape delay response IRs. Stick them into an RV7000, and put THAT into the breakout loop of The Echo.
That way you get as much of a murky garbled analog echo sound as you want, but retain the ability to adjust delay time, feedback, ping-pong, wobble, etc.

[MrFigg]

Thanks. That's what I thought. I think you just saved me $16 .

If I was working away from Reason (and not using the RRP), I'd give the Kilohearts Convolver a good look. I like it because it's small, fast, and easy to audition a lot of impulses quickly. It doesn't have a lot of added functionality, which for me is a good thing - recent convolution engines are a bit unnecessary cluttered and fussy, including those that are built in DAWs.
With convolution there's just so much character and variety available within each IR (with the limitations mentioned above), that I usually just run them as-is.

Compared to RV7000, the Kilohearts one is actually quite a bit less feature-some. The one unique thing I can see that it has is a feedback option. Together with the delay function, I can imagine that you can make some interesting echo effects.

My secret echo weapon in Reason is to have a selection of single-repeat analog/tape delay response IRs. Stick them into an RV7000, and put THAT into the breakout loop of The Echo.
That way you get as much of a murky garbled analog echo sound as you want, but retain the ability to adjust delay time, feedback, ping-pong, wobble, etc.

So you’d say Convolver is cool but unnecessary in light of all the other million verbs and delays?

[selig]

My secret echo weapon in Reason is to have a selection of single-repeat analog/tape delay response IRs. Stick them into an RV7000, and put THAT into the breakout loop of The Echo.
That way you get as much of a murky garbled analog echo sound as you want, but retain the ability to adjust delay time, feedback, ping-pong, wobble, etc.

That’s a cool tip, never thought of doing that before! Obviously it’s limited to the frequency response limitation of the original and won’t recreate all the other attributes of tape such as saturation, wow/flutter, dropouts, noise etc - but maybe you don’t want all of those artifacts in the first place!

[AnotherMathias]

So you’d say Convolver is cool but unnecessary in light of all the other million verbs and delays?

Well, not all that cool either, really, just nice and basic!
But totally redundant when you also have RV7000.

[AnotherMathias]

That’s a cool tip, never thought of doing that before! Obviously it’s limited to the frequency response limitation of the original and won’t recreate all the other attributes of tape such as saturation, wow/flutter, dropouts, noise etc - but maybe you don’t want all of those artifacts in the first place!

Fun, right?
You DO get increased degradation with each repeat, since it passes through the IR each time around.
But like you said, no other original artifacts, although The Echo gives you some nice options for simulated flutter and saturation.
In fact, if Reason Studios were to ever do a The Echo MkII, the ability to insert an IR in the chain would be great, and something I haven't seen in any other delay plugin.