Prop's CTO Magnus Berger talks about building REs for desktop, mobile, web and hardware

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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antic604
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Post 07 Dec 2018

guitfnky wrote:
07 Dec 2018
I have to assume your day job is in some sort of high-level management position at a medium-large company...is that right?
LOL, yeah - biggest Polish bank, actually :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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selig
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Can you post a full-res screenshot of how Reason looks for you? Ideally with a Logic Pro or even web browser open side-by-side for comparison. Because I'm afraid many that don't see the problem simply don't have a good reference to compare to?
Can't post full rez here, they are over 1 MB - how did you post yours?
Here's a dropbox link to four screenshots, two in dark mode, two in light mode:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4uvsz905n9f5a ... M.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/wd75irid2rure ... M.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6x5fh6b4hs0w3 ... M.png?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/raezfqt4maek5 ... M.png?dl=0
Selig Audio, LLC

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antic604
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Post 07 Dec 2018

selig wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Here's a dropbox link to four screenshots, two in dark mode, two in light mode
Thanks! So they're as blocky as they are on my computer - just look at the mixer! - but because you're on even higher res (it's iMac Pro, right?) this probably is less apparent. Also have a look at the browser, and compare how shart old devices are (Kong, Redrum, Dr. OctoRex) vs. how blurry Europa and Grain are. This is pretty weird :?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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EnochLight
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Also, your constant dismissing of my high-DPI complaints with "but it works fine on my 40'' 4K screen" needed calling out, because you KNOW it's comparing apples to oranges.
Wait - what?

Where have I conducted "constant dismissing" of your request?!!! :shock: :o :? I'm actually in agreement with you! :lol:

I've been requesting 4K support for years - much longer than you yourself have been around here (unless you've been going by another screen name, in which case I apologize). Put your guns away, friend. I merely meant that Reason is still usable and other things clearly were more important to Props and their users (as evidenced by features such as VST-support, audio pitch editing, etc appearing before it's been addressed).

Trust me, I'll be right by your side on our holy crusade quest for proper 4K/high DPI support until we get it!
Windows 10 64-bit | Reason 10 |  Studio One 3.5 | Asus Sabertooth Z77 | Intel i7 3770k Quad-Core @ 4.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Mushkin Reactor 1TB SSD | RME babyface Pro| Nektar Panorama P-4 | M-Audio Trigger Finger Pro

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antic604
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Post 07 Dec 2018

EnochLight wrote:
07 Dec 2018
antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Also, your constant dismissing of my high-DPI complaints with "but it works fine on my 40'' 4K screen" needed calling out, because you KNOW it's comparing apples to oranges.
Wait - what?
Didn't you posted that on previous page? I heard you well, but I can't be bothered looking up all the thread here and on KVR, unless you insist?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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Loque
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
EnochLight wrote:
07 Dec 2018


Wait - what?
Didn't you posted that on previous page? I heard you well, but I can't be bothered looking up all the thread here and on KVR, unless you insist?
SeveralLeanAmericanalligator-small.gif
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:reason: 10, Win10 64Bit.

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EnochLight
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Didn't you posted that on previous page? I heard you well, but I can't be bothered looking up all the thread here and on KVR, unless you insist?
It's not necessary - it just seems you and I are remembering things very differently. As far as I can recall, I've always been in agreement that we need the graphics addressed. Maybe it's because I tend to temper that by rationalizing why it's taken the back burner for so long? At any rate, I don't recall ever constantly dismissing your request. If it ever came off that way, I do apologize though!
Loque wrote:
07 Dec 2018
SeveralLeanAmericanalligator-small.gif
Naaaa - nothing like that. ;)
Windows 10 64-bit | Reason 10 |  Studio One 3.5 | Asus Sabertooth Z77 | Intel i7 3770k Quad-Core @ 4.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Mushkin Reactor 1TB SSD | RME babyface Pro| Nektar Panorama P-4 | M-Audio Trigger Finger Pro

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avasopht
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Post 07 Dec 2018

selig wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Only those doing market research know the opinions (and stats) of the user base.
Well, the stats could be biased by people with hi-res monitors simply not installing Reason while they wait for the feature, or only using it on their old machine.
---

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antic604
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Post 07 Dec 2018

EnochLight wrote:
07 Dec 2018
It's not necessary - it just seems you and I are remembering things very differently. As far as I can recall, I've always been in agreement that we need the graphics addressed. Maybe it's because I tend to temper that by rationalizing why it's taken the back burner for so long? At any rate, I don't recall ever constantly dismissing your request.
That may be. I might've taken wrongly your posts (+pics) of your 49'' 4K screen as negating of my "rants"

And it's already been established that I'm Mattias's nemesis and I can't handle working on two fronts ;) :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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EnochLight
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
And it's already been established that I'm Mattias's nemesis and I can't handle working on two fronts ;) :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Windows 10 64-bit | Reason 10 |  Studio One 3.5 | Asus Sabertooth Z77 | Intel i7 3770k Quad-Core @ 4.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Mushkin Reactor 1TB SSD | RME babyface Pro| Nektar Panorama P-4 | M-Audio Trigger Finger Pro

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selig
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
selig wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Here's a dropbox link to four screenshots, two in dark mode, two in light mode
Thanks! So they're as blocky as they are on my computer - just look at the mixer! - but because you're on even higher res (it's iMac Pro, right?) this probably is less apparent. Also have a look at the browser, and compare how shart old devices are (Kong, Redrum, Dr. OctoRex) vs. how blurry Europa and Grain are. This is pretty weird :?
If I zoomed in on any screen grab it’s blocky. When I look at this screen grab it looks exactly like it does on my computer, which is fine with me. I get work done, things look sharp to my old eyes. If I was editing photos I would be more likely to pixel peep screen grabs. But I work on music, so the screen needs to be focused and legible, and not fatiguing - on my Retina display it looks so good I’ve never once noticed any of the things being mentioned here.

Again, I KNOW folks have issues on their computers, and this should be addressed. However, saying that does not contradict anything I’ve said previously!


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
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miscend
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Post 07 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
07 Dec 2018
selig wrote:
07 Dec 2018
I think it’s important to report whether you have an issue with the current situation.
Sure I do and at least 5% of my posts is about that ;) :D

This is the only way I can use Reason, because even if it's incredibly blocky (compare the "acid.reason" text up top with Reason's GUI) it's still sharp, as the pixels are 2x2. The problem is everything is just too big, so I can't have too many elements on screen:

(right-click, open in separate tab & click again to have 1:1 pixel zoom - at least this works on Windows)

Image

The alternative is this, where Windows is set to 150% scaling - the size is OK for me to work with (I've very good eyesight still), but it's BOTH blocky and blurry and I can't bare it for longer than an hour:

Image

For reference, this is how Bitwig 2.4 looks at those exact same settings - it's a night & day different in terms of sharpness & clarity. And it's the same with Live 10 and Studio One 4:

Image

So yeah, I have an issue with current situation :(



Can you post a full-res screenshot of how Reason looks for you? Ideally with a Logic Pro or even web browser open side-by-side for comparison. Because I'm afraid many that don't see the problem simply don't have a good reference to compare to?
Despite the low DPI I find Reason a lot less fiddly to work in than Bitwig or Ableton on a 15 inch laptop screen. Some of the UI elements and icons in the latter two are incredibly tiny. Your screenshots only confirmed that for me.

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antic604
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Post 08 Dec 2018

miscend wrote:
07 Dec 2018
Despite the low DPI I find Reason a lot less fiddly to work in than Bitwig or Ableton on a 15 inch laptop screen. Some of the UI elements and icons in the latter two are incredibly tiny. Your screenshots only confirmed that for me.
I'd disagree here because I can comfortably use both Bitwig and Live on a touch screen (fingers, no pen) and it's nearly impossible with Reason, because a) it isn't designed for it (e.g. you can only scroll the rack grabbing the "wooden" dividers!), b) most of things are way too small. I don't have this problem in Live or Bitwig.

I'm saying this ^^^, because with mouse it's obviously even easier.



But OK, I give up. I don't use 49'' TV, I try to write music and not edit photos but this still bothers me. But apparently I'm alone in this struggle, so I won't mention it ever again.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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EnochLight
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Post 08 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
08 Dec 2018
But apparently I'm alone in this struggle, so I won't mention it ever again.
Dude - the struggle is real. Don't give up. We all want proper hi-res support, trust me!
Windows 10 64-bit | Reason 10 |  Studio One 3.5 | Asus Sabertooth Z77 | Intel i7 3770k Quad-Core @ 4.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | Mushkin Reactor 1TB SSD | RME babyface Pro| Nektar Panorama P-4 | M-Audio Trigger Finger Pro

botnotbot
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Post 08 Dec 2018

EnochLight wrote:
08 Dec 2018
antic604 wrote:
08 Dec 2018
But apparently I'm alone in this struggle, so I won't mention it ever again.
Dude - the struggle is real. Don't give up. We all want proper hi-res support, trust me!
Graphics were a major factor in not looking at Reason as a DAW for my first four years of production. It was only after a personal workflow issue appeared in my old DAW as I tried to use MPE over hardware that I ended up giving all the other DAWs under the sun a chance. Reason was the last I tried, and only after VST support was added.

I could care less about the graphics when I'm actually using the software, considering the amount of music I'm making at this point and the joy I'm having while doing it.

So yes, I absolutely want hi-res support. I'm just absolutely willing to wait for it. I'm happier to have the Players opened up via SDK and multi-lane editing than hi-res support. If I were being given no indications that the situation would soon improve, then sure, I'd be bothered. There are certainly lost customers as a result of the graphics issues, which is why we can be certain that they are indeed planning to address it.

As to indications: Designing, implementing, and growing an entire ecosystem that you can upgrade to hi-res with the flip of a switch and then publicly showing off that capabilities over and over again in 2018 stands as a pretty good indication that things will improve soon.

As to why you always get pushback from me on this, and will continue to:

As a developer, when I read someone railing against the allocation decisions made for some development team's resources when their allocations are demonstrably sane and arguably highly strategic, I'm going to defend those decisions.

two shoes
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Post 08 Dec 2018

rcbuse wrote:
06 Dec 2018
The take away is "They have been securing the next 10-20 years of development". And when you are running Reason 15 on your 64 core ARM, or on some other chip/device that doesn't even exist yet, your cakewalk RE2A Rack Extension can be there.
I wish but despite the fact that all Cakewalk's IP has a new owner that is relaunching the brand I still can't buy the RE2A despite asking both props and the new Cakewalk people very nicely to cooperate and sell it to me. I need some of you other latecomers who lack this essential RE to pile on and get them to put it back in the shop.

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antic604
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Post 08 Dec 2018

botnotbot wrote:
08 Dec 2018
As a developer, when I read someone railing against the allocation decisions made for some development team's resources when their allocations are demonstrably sane and arguably highly strategic, I'm going to defend those decisions.
So having a high-res Reason isn't a strategic decision, while QNG is? :shock: :?

QNG - or the Upmfs - has all the hallmarks of tactical decision, although hopefull the quick cash grab is to finance bigger, genuinely strategic endeavours :)
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

botnotbot
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Post 08 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
08 Dec 2018
botnotbot wrote:
08 Dec 2018
As a developer, when I read someone railing against the allocation decisions made for some development team's resources when their allocations are demonstrably sane and arguably highly strategic, I'm going to defend those decisions.
So having a high-res Reason isn't a strategic decision, while QNG is? :shock: :?

QNG - or the Upmfs - has all the hallmarks of tactical decision, although hopefull the quick cash grab is to finance bigger, genuinely strategic endeavours :)
How many times do you need to hear that new devices are developed by a completely separate team from the low-level/engine guys?

You whine about how you are afraid they will go out of business if they don't go hi-res yesterday, and then whine when they release products to make money? Everything they put out is a "cash grab" now? But it wasn't before? They are pulling in revenue but they also have a massive war chest thanks to the investor.

Don't buy what you don't like. It's so unbelievably easy. Clearly someone wants them and buys them. We aren't talking freaking loot boxes here.

YOU CAN ALSO GET $3000 OF REs FOR $30 A MONTH. Another horrible move by a greedy company...

And regarding QNG yes, I think official partnerships with top RE devs is a nicely strategic move as well.

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antic604
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Post 08 Dec 2018

botnotbot wrote:
08 Dec 2018
How many times do you need to hear that new devices are developed by a completely separate team from the low-level/engine guys?
So what are you talking about when mentioning "strategic decisions", because this:
botnotbot wrote:
08 Dec 2018
As to indications: Designing, implementing, and growing an entire ecosystem that you can upgrade to hi-res with the flip of a switch and then publicly showing off that capabilities over and over again in 2018 stands as a pretty good indication that things will improve soon.
was designed 8 and implemented 6 years ago respectively? I highly doubt the original schedule was to wait 6 years to do anything with it. That is my main point - only after the takeover by Verdane things started taking shape.

And Props have been cooperating with 3rd party RE developers already - QNG isn't the first.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

botnotbot
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Post 08 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
08 Dec 2018

was designed 8 and implemented 6 years ago respectively? I highly doubt the original schedule was to wait 6 years to do anything with it. That is my main point - only after the takeover by Verdane things started taking shape.
I'd rather trust the CEO when he says that they already had their entire mid-term plan in place before the deal with Verdane.

Or, sure, yeah, you can imagine that Verdane invested in a company with no five or ten year plan. Does your bank provide loans under those conditions? I'd be interested in one!
And Props have been cooperating with 3rd party RE developers already - QNG isn't the first.
Is there another rack device that is from an RE dev and not a Refill company? I've only been using Reason for about a year, so maybe I missed it.

two shoes
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Post 08 Dec 2018

antic604 wrote:
06 Dec 2018
I'm halfway through, but if anything this talk makes me EVEN MORE pissed off about the VST (and RE) performance as well as low-res GUI.
It had the exact opposite effect on me. Yes Propellerhead has dropped the ball on a few features, but it's easy to forgive when you see what kind of stuff they're busy thinking about. I found the whole talk encouraging and I see real potential down the road in some of the tech he talked about.

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avasopht
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Post 08 Dec 2018

I hope they handle the hardware well but also don't neglect the nest egg.
---

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rcbuse
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Post 08 Dec 2018

two shoes wrote:
08 Dec 2018
rcbuse wrote:
06 Dec 2018
The take away is "They have been securing the next 10-20 years of development". And when you are running Reason 15 on your 64 core ARM, or on some other chip/device that doesn't even exist yet, your cakewalk RE2A Rack Extension can be there.
I wish but despite the fact that all Cakewalk's IP has a new owner that is relaunching the brand I still can't buy the RE2A despite asking both props and the new Cakewalk people very nicely to cooperate and sell it to me. I need some of you other latecomers who lack this essential RE to pile on and get them to put it back in the shop.
Well, I chose that particular device to illustrate my point. The RE isn't available anymore, along with a handful of others that have been pulled from the shop. The propellerheads still have everything necessary to rebuild / retarget that device to whatever architecture comes along in the future.

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challism
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Post 08 Dec 2018

rcbuse wrote:
08 Dec 2018
Well, I chose that particular device to illustrate my point. The RE isn't available anymore, along with a handful of others that have been pulled from the shop. The propellerheads still have everything necessary to rebuild / retarget that device to whatever architecture comes along in the future.
Yet another great reason to love the RE format.

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SebAudio
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Post 09 Dec 2018

Great to see PH at a Roli/Juce conference ! It shows 2 different ways of resolving the tough question of bullding audio plugins.
With PH we have a closed model where, if you own a company, you can build proprietary RE and benefit a great way to promote and sell your plugins, but for a small market. And they advertise for the promise your plugins will be able to run anywhere in an unknown future...
With Roli/Juce we have an open source open to everyone model where you can build vst, au, for every OS platform, today. That is a big market, but you have to promote and sell your plugins all by yourself.
Not an easy task to choose the right framework. Let alone the one which will make you have a living developping audio plugins !

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