Umpf Retro Beats

[EnochLight]

Except for that part where you were told by the Product Manager himself that developing RE’s does not affect developing Reason at all.

Of course he'd say that, but company funding is limited and can be allocated in various ways. It so happens that I'm managing a balance sheet in a bank and I'm fully aware of different possible strategies. Problem is, some of those strategies can be focued on the bottom line or RoI/RoE and have little to do with prioritising customer satisfaction or building of long-term relationship. It depends on the management & their plan.

I've nothing against REs like Europa or Grain that are added to the suite of native devices, but putting things in Shop works against 3rd party devs and RE ecosystem. They've already put it in danger with VSTs, so they maybe shouldn't compete with them directly as well? There was a thread recently where some prominent devs expressed their concern with how things are going right now...

I feel Ike we’re moving the goal posts of the conversation at this point. Is the concern that making RE’s take away dev time from Reason (which, as explained- they do not), or is the concern now Props shouldn’t make RE’s at all because other devs can’t corner the market? Confused. Or is it they shouldn’t have supported VST at all?

[EnochLight]

I get that! I'm using Reason BECAUSE of its Rack and REs - I even disabled VSTs now after completing my recent project - but since v9.5 huge majority of discussions on FB and in General here is about or related to VSTs, so it definitely had its impact and I don't think it's positive.

Adding VST support has clearly allowed Props to tap into a user base that they never had access to prior. I know it’s kept me from jumping ship to another primary DAW (my story isn’t unique). We’ve seen Reason become a lot more competitive as an alternative DAW since 9.5. This is all VERY positive. And yes, we all know VST-performance is lackluster, but we also know it’s being addressed in some capacity.

Now if you’re talking about 9.5 and later taking market away from RE devs, then I’d have to agree. But I’m not an active dev; I’m a DAW user first and foremost. I can see no negatives from where I’m standing.

[guitfnky]

the problem with just reallocating funds to Reason development at the expense of Rack Extension development is that the people working on each of those things don’t necessarily have the skillset to be working on the other side of the equation. calling on an RE dev who doesn’t have the same foundation as someone who’s working on the core product could be an even bigger waste of time and money.

How is it not obvious - if you're running a company you don't keep people you don't need and hire more of those that you need.

and I respectfully disagree that having VSTs puts REs in any real danger. obviously, I’m just a one-man walking anecdote over here, but I’ve spent more money in the last year on REs than I ever had before. and I get excited whenever I hear a new RE has been announced, even if it’s not really my thing (like Umpf). to me, that means the RE market is healthy. but again, that’s my singular experience.

I get that! I'm using Reason BECAUSE of its Rack and REs - I even disabled VSTs now after completing my recent project - but since v9.5 huge majority of discussions on FB and in General here is about or related to VSTs, so it definitely had its impact and I don't think it's positive.

yeesh, didn’t expect to strike such a nerve there...I wasn’t trying to be argumentative...

hiring new people is an uphill battle. getting people on board and up to speed with your processes is a difficult thing to do (anyone who’s ever gone through the joy of training new employees will tell you that). that’s time and money too. but really, that’s beside the point. no company of any real size can be expected to focus on one thing at a time. does your bank solely focus on developing new checking account products/offers? I’d wager that it works on those, yes, but also works to make their other services better too. that’s how businesses grow. a solid, stable foundation (Reason) and a diverse product line (Rack Extensions, etc.) will take you much farther than just one or the other.

walk and chew gum.

I wouldn’t put so much stock in the stuff you’re seeing in social media and on forums like this. for every one of us that are out here saying how we feel about things, there are probably ten more who aren’t. we can’t know what they think. it’s like trying to gauge the popularity of a band based solely on reading the comments section of their Youtube video.

[antic604]

I feel Ike we’re moving the goal posts of the conversation at this point. Is the concern that making RE’s take away dev time from Reason (which, as explained- they do not), or is the concern now Props shouldn’t make RE’s at all because other devs can’t corner the market? Confused. Or is it they shouldn’t have supported VST at all?

I'm not moving any goal posts here - since the beginning I was mentioning about allocation of resources and internal competition with RE devs.

Regarding VSTs - sure, I'd prefer if Reason didn't have them, but I can always disable them. I didn't buy it when v9.5 came out. I got it at v10 because of Europa, Gain and Synchronous.

[WongoTheSane]

Wow, Wongo! I thoroughly enjoyed that!

Thanks D., I appreciate that!

Of course he'd say that, but company funding is limited and can be allocated in various ways. It so happens that I'm managing a balance sheet in a bank and I'm fully aware of different possible strategies. Problem is, some of those strategies can be focued on the bottom line or RoI/RoE and have little to do with prioritising customer satisfaction or building of long-term relationship. It depends on the management & their plan.

There's another possibility that you didn't consider: that this particular RE wasn't developed in-house, but simply co-branded. At least, that's what I understand from Mattias' post. In which case the funding problem is irrelevant, as only the marketing team is involved and not the devs.

[EnochLight]

I'm not moving any goal posts here - since the beginning I was mentioning about allocation of resources and internal competition with RE devs.

OK, I see. I thought we were just talking about allocation of resources (a subject that has already been addressed by Mattias). I didn't realize we had shifted to internal competition with RE devs - my bad!

I've nothing against REs like Europa or Grain that are added to the suite of native devices

To be frank, that they are or are not "RE's" is immaterial - in this context, they're just native devices. But I hear you.

but putting things in Shop works against 3rd party devs and RE ecosystem.

I disagree. From the very beginning, Props have always released their own RE's in the shop - they did so at the launch of 6.5 and the RE SDK announcement: Pulsar (which was free for a limited time) and Polar (which, IMHO, is still a sublime pitch effect). I think they made it pretty clear from the beginning that they would be a presence, so any dev deciding to take on RE development knew what they were getting involved with. To be frank, devs needed to step up their game. Many still do.

They've already put it in danger with VSTs, so they maybe shouldn't compete with them directly as well?

Put RE's in danger? Perhaps. Or perhaps not. If an RE dev can't create a product that holds its own against VST out there, or it can't hold its own against a Prop branded RE, or is a perfectly suited alternative (perhaps for a lower cost), then perhaps they shouldn't bother. I know a few very vocal RE devs have expressed their very public dissatisfaction with Reason supporting VST. I can also say that I didn't own RE's from all of them. I can also reaffirm that I am a DAW user first and foremost, so I'm more concerned with what I can use in my rack rather than what I cannot. Whether it's RE or VST, I'm fair game.

Regarding VSTs - sure, I'd prefer if Reason didn't have them, but I can always disable them. I didn't buy it when v9.5 came out. I got it at v10 because of Europa, Gain and Synchronous.

I hear you. I have to say, keeping things all ITB with Reason and RE's alone does force one to work in a different manner, and often that can result in a lot of inspiration as well as efficiency. Just adding iZotope's Ozone 8 Advanced, Neutron 2 Advanced, and now Nectar 3 has forced me to completely re-think (and re-learn) how I record, mix, and master - and I've lost a lot of time doing so.

[guitfnky]

as I reread the “allocation of resources” argument, it actually is making less sense the more I think about it.

this -> “if you’re running a company, you get rid of people you don’t need, and hire more people you do need”

sounds like Antic is suggesting laying off staff that are working on REs, so they can hire staff to work on the core platform. is that right?

because that sounds like a terrible idea, especially from a business management standpoint. let’s say they do that, and then follow that logic down the rabbit hole... they lay off people who are doing their in-house RE development, and hire a few to give Reason itself a nice, sparkly DAW-sheen. what happens when they get there? what happens when the amount of work needed on the core experience is no longer so high? of course there’ll still be work to do, but there will come a point where there’s a lot more slack on that side of things. and then there will come a point when people will wonder where the new devices are.

does Props try to then re-hire the RE devs they laid off? anyone they laid off would think twice about coming back, and probably would have done a fair amount of badmouthing the company to anyone willing to listen. or do they hire new ones and train them to get them up to speed?

[antic604]

because that sounds like a terrible idea, especially from a business management standpoint. let’s say they do that, and then follow that logic down the rabbit hole... they lay off people who are doing their in-house RE development, and hire a few to give Reason itself a nice, sparkly DAW-sheen. what happens when they get there? what happens when the amount of work needed on the core experience is no longer so high? of course there’ll still be work to do, but there will come a point where there’s a lot more slack on that side of things. and then there will come a point when people will wonder where the new devices are.

does Props try to then re-hire the RE devs they laid off? anyone they laid off would think twice about coming back, and probably would have done a fair amount of badmouthing the company to anyone willing to listen. or do they hire new ones and train them to get them up to speed?

Have you heard about technique appeal to extremes? You're using it. I never said Props should lay off ALL the RE / native devices developers. That's absurd! I said I appreciate Europa, Grain or Synchronous and got Reason largely because of them. But those are two different things - enhancing the core Reason experience (which inludes native devices) and competing with 3rd party devs, by creating devices for sale - they'll have much better visibility in social media, more marketing and will likely be more 'posh' because there's a whole team there working on them as opposed to 3rd parties that usually are single person, working on REs in their spare time. I don't know how is this not obvious.

Sure, from business perspective it might be a smart move - creating a device by enhancing an existing one, slapping a new coat of paint on it, bundling with some old, probably free by now samples and selling it for $99 a pop obviously will be more profitable than working hard on performance, high-res GUI, track folders or track freezing... I just hope they still work on the latter things.

If Props care so much about 3rd parties and RE environment why aren't their stuff available as rent-to-own or via rewards? If they care so much about users, why was Drum Sequencer available only through limited time and has to be purchased now?

[EnochLight]

Sure, from business perspective it might be a smart move - creating a device by enhancing an existing one, slapping a new coat of paint on it, bundling with some old, probably free by now samples and selling it for $99 a pop obviously will be more profitable than working hard on performance, high-res GUI, track folders or track freezing... I just hope they still work on the latter things.

Well, as discussed ad infinitum earlier in this thread, we can be thankful that working hard on performance, high-res GUI, track folders or track freezing (core Reason) has absolutely ZERO affect on creating a device by enhancing an existing one, slapping a new coat of paint on it, bundling with some old, probably free by now samples and selling it for $99 a pop (RE's).

I'm not sure why you keep insisting this is thing...

If Props care so much about 3rd parties and RE environment why aren't their stuff available as rent-to-own or via rewards? If they care so much about users, why was Drum Sequencer available only through limited time and has to be purchased now?

Caring about 3rd parties/RE environment means that they continue to nurture the RE SDK and offer new methods to extract revenue from said ecosystem. They've done exactly that with the RE SDK updates that have appeared over the past 2 years (adding sampling, changeable panels, and now Players). As far as rent-to-own or rewards - if you're suggesting that it's not available to 3rd party RE devs, have you considered that maybe it is, and said 3rd party devs aren't choosing to slap their stuff up just yet? Or maybe Props are simply "testing the waters" first?

Again, it seems like a lot of assumptions are being made. I doubt Mattias will chime in again, but I'm sure there's two sides to every (alleged) story...

[guitfnky]

Have you heard about technique appeal to extremes? You're using it.

Actually, I am not.

I never said Props should lay off ALL the RE / native devices developers.

laying off any number of them (1 or 20) is a bad business choice, if you ever anticipate/plan on needing to fill those roles again.

Sure, from business perspective it might be a smart move - creating a device by enhancing an existing one, slapping a new coat of paint on it, bundling with some old, probably free by now samples and selling it for $99 a pop obviously will be more profitable than working hard on performance, high-res GUI, track folders or track freezing... I just hope they still work on the latter things.

like life, the actions of a company that sells a constantly-evolving set of products just isn't that black and white. you seem under the impression it's a binary choice...work on this, not that...work on that, not this. your entire argument seems to be based on this false premise.

If Props care so much about 3rd parties and RE environment why aren't their stuff available as rent-to-own or via rewards?

you mean why aren't third party devices available as rent-to-own? I'm guessing that would require some sort of contractual agreement between the third party and Props. who's to say they're not working on getting third party devs on board?

as for third party stuff being available via Rewards...I got the Legend synth (Synapse) through the Rewards program. I did a quick count, and it looks like there are around 12 different third party devs that have REs in the Rewards shop. the suggestion that they're locking third parties out of that is flatly false.

If they care so much about users, why was Drum Sequencer available only through limited time and has to be purchased now?

they still need to make money. they could have not offered it for free to anyone. would that have been preferable? #hardshrug

alright, now I *am* being argumentative.

[gullum]

I guess PH could have added all their RE's as native devices but I think that would hurt the 3. party devs even more, as it is now we the user have an option to get a PH RE or a 3. party RE gives us the option to choose instead of choosing for us

[EnochLight]

I guess PH could have added all their RE's as native devices but I think that would hurt the 3. party devs even more, as it is now we the user have an option to get a PH RE or a 3. party RE gives us the option to choose instead of choosing for us

Exactly this. Also, I think it's quite evident that Props are using the very same RE SDK to add devices to Reason going forward (RV7000 MK2 notwithstanding). That actually puts Props on the same level playing field as all 3rd party devs, as well as allows them to develop Reason's core functions separately (without having to worry about how adding a device "built in" could break Reason, etc).

[mcatalao]

I'm not moving any goal posts here - since the beginning I was mentioning about allocation of resources and internal competition with RE devs.

Regarding VSTs - sure, I'd prefer if Reason didn't have them, but I can always disable them. I didn't buy it when v9.5 came out. I got it at v10 because of Europa, Gain and Synchronous.

I don't get you. So releasing devices in between Reason releases is competition with Re Devs. But creating 2 devices that were already available as Re's (I can tell you at least 1 granular device and a couple of wavetable Re's) isn't?

Sorry but to me, you make no sense man!

I told this before, telling this again: Re's are a format to allow either Propellerheads or other Devs to create rack devices, in between releases. It makes part of their market strategy. Deal with it. Don't like a device, don't buy it. You could even talk bad about the device but extrapolating this to the company's strategy is plain stupid.

Here. These are the Re's that were created by Propellerheads since the beggining courtesy of Reason Experts.

A-List Acoustic Guitarist
A-List Classic Drummer
A-List Power Drummer
A-List Studio Drummer
Parsec
Polar
Pop Chords A-List Electric Guitarist
Power Chords A-List Electric Guitarist
PX7 FM Synthesizer
Radical Keys
Radical Piano
Rotor
Synchronous
Fingerpicking Nylon - A-List Guitarist
Layers
Layers Wave Edition
Drum Sequencer
Umpf Club Drums
Reason Electric Bass
Umpf Retro Beats

There things are being added since Reason 6.5.

If you don't like a device, don't buy it. You're questioning a business strategy that is around since R6.5.

Deal with it.

[antic604]

I'm not moving any goal posts here - since the beginning I was mentioning about allocation of resources and internal competition with RE devs.

Regarding VSTs - sure, I'd prefer if Reason didn't have them, but I can always disable them. I didn't buy it when v9.5 came out. I got it at v10 because of Europa, Gain and Synchronous.

I don't get you. So releasing devices in between Reason releases is competition with Re Devs. But creating 2 devices that were already available as Re's (I can tell you at least 1 granular device and a couple of wavetable Re's) isn't?

You don't? That's how every other DAW dev operates - Bitwig has added Phase-4 and new Sampler in last 12 months, Ableton added Wavetable, Echo and other free devices to Live 10, Presonus gave updates Impact XT and Sampler XT to Studio One v4. They all add stuff to their DAWs to make them a more compelling product and sure - maybe they've created a small dent in sales of VSTs users of their DAWs would otherwise purchased, but it's not them who created the VST market nor they make any cut from those sales.

But whatever - if Mattias says everything's fine, then it is!

[chimp_spanner]

Honestly every forum is the same. Cubase, Ableton, Maschine. There are always people who think their concerns in particular are going unnoticed, or that things are taking too long. Only difference is, they rarely if ever get a response! So let’s keep the conversation productive. We’re all friends here

So who’s demoing Umpf? Anyone make anything cool in it yet?

Here's mine:



The genre is electro/downtempo, there's also a JPS Harmonic Synthesizer, a Nostromo, an eXpanse, a Europa, an abl3, an Antidote, a Grain, an Air Hybrid and a SWAM Violin. I'm not doing anything too crazy with UMPF, I just picked a few samples from the new library, tweaked them until I had the right sound (the gated reverb is superb), hooked a Drum Sequencer on top and that was it. I was going for the Simmons SDS type of drums.

Sounds great! Nice and dusty I need to start using JPS Harmonic Synth again. I always forget I own it, and it's got such a great retro vibe.

[guitfnky]

I don't get you. So releasing devices in between Reason releases is competition with Re Devs. But creating 2 devices that were already available as Re's (I can tell you at least 1 granular device and a couple of wavetable Re's) isn't?

You don't? That's how every other DAW dev operates - Bitwig has added Phase-4 and new Sampler in last 12 months, Ableton added Wavetable, Echo and other free devices to Live 10, Presonus gave updates Impact XT and Sampler XT to Studio One v4. They all add stuff to their DAWs to make them a more compelling product and sure - maybe they've created a small dent in sales of VSTs users of their DAWs would otherwise purchased, but it's not them who created the VST market nor they make any cut from those sales.

But whatever - if Mattias says everything's fine, then it is!

I don’t know if it’s different now, but a few years ago when I was using Digital Performer, those proprietary plugins that you got with each new version were sparse, meaning you only got one or two, most of the time. and almost as a rule, they were the bare minimum one would expect, to keep up with the times. the whole point of most other DAWs (at least at that time) was to provide a platform to record on, with the expectation that you’ll fill most of your processing out with third party plugins, and find your inspiration elsewhere. by its very nature, that approach is antithetical to what Reason is all about. they give you tools that are supposed to be inspiring in the main upgrades (and I doubt there are very many people who complain about getting Grain, Europa, etc. in the newest version). they seem to save tools that have less widespread appeal for the market. I have zero desire for Layers, for example. it wouldn’t be a selling point for a major upgrade, for me. with Umpf, it’s the same thing. there are a lot of people who will buy them, and for others, it would be something nice to have, but probably wouldn’t get used all that often. seems to me, Props’ approach is pretty well balanced in favor of the consumer (recognizing they still need to make money).

we get it. you’d run the company very differently, and probably, right into the ground. if Props aren’t doing it for you, there are all those other options. your wallet is your best voting tool.

[VariableX]

Honestly every forum is the same. Cubase, Ableton, Maschine. There are always people who think their concerns in particular are going unnoticed, or that things are taking too long. Only difference is, they rarely if ever get a response! So let’s keep the conversation productive. We’re all friends here

So who’s demoing Umpf? Anyone make anything cool in it yet?

couple more beats with Umpf retro:

lofi horror groove (28secs) : https://youtu.be/JWm5ObzBQJM

catchy groove (35secs) : https://youtu.be/twWBabiniVk

I really love it, kudos to propellerheads.

[hurricane]

Here. These are the Re's that were created by Propellerheads since the beggining courtesy of Reason Experts.

A-List Acoustic Guitarist
A-List Classic Drummer
A-List Power Drummer
A-List Studio Drummer
Parsec
Polar
Pop Chords A-List Electric Guitarist
Power Chords A-List Electric Guitarist
PX7 FM Synthesizer
Radical Keys
Radical Piano
Rotor
Synchronous
Fingerpicking Nylon - A-List Guitarist
Layers
Layers Wave Edition
Drum Sequencer
Umpf Club Drums
Reason Electric Bass
Umpf Retro Beats

There things are being added since Reason 6.5.

If you don't like a device, don't buy it. You're questioning a business strategy that is around since R6.5.

Deal with it.

Nice! I own more REs from Propellerhead than any other developer - 10 out of the 20 listed to be exact, although 4 of those were free (Synchronus, Radical Piano, Layers, Polar). But keep making them and I'll keep not buying the ones I don't like, cuz that's how it's supposed to work.

[EnochLight]

*redacted*

Carry on; nothing to see here!

[chimp_spanner]

Hey I'm not gonna tell people what they ought to be interested in discussing but ultimately, speculating about Propellerhead's internal company structure, finances and development process is quite *literally* pointless . No-one that works there will ever confirm, much less change anything in that regard. They've acknowledged the things people are asking for. So all you can really do is get on with it, make music, and wait for 10.5 or 11 and see how you feel about it all then.

In the meantime, buy the RE, don't buy the RE. The choice is yours! Also, LM1 has just had a great free update that allows sample importing via a virtual USB EPROM burner (nice touch). Comes in all crunchy and crispy. So there are plenty of alternatives and options.

[buddard]

If Props care so much about 3rd parties and RE environment why aren't their stuff available as rent-to-own or via rewards? If they care so much about users, why was Drum Sequencer available only through limited time and has to be purchased now?

There are plenty of 3rd party developers represented in Rewards (including Robotic Bean) in case you haven't noticed?

And regarding Drum Sequencer being free for a while, it's exactly the same thing they did with Pulsar, Synchronous and Audiomatic initially, so I don't see anything new there either? I think it's a great way to reward existing customers while still being able to gain some revenue from the product afterwards.

[antic604]

There are plenty of 3rd party developers represented in Rewards (including Robotic Bean) in case you haven't noticed?

Might have missed that. Despite spending Eur1k on REs in last 12 months I only got 13 points which doesn't make me eligible for anything, so I stopped checking. My bad

And regarding Drum Sequencer being free for a while, it's exactly the same thing they did with Pulsar, Synchronous and Audiomatic initially, so I don't see anything new there either? I think it's a great way to reward existing customers while still being able to gain some revenue from the product afterwards.

Again, I wasn't aware of this being a Reason users for roughly 16 months.

[jam-s]

Of course he'd say that, but company funding is limited and can be allocated in various ways. It so happens that I'm managing a balance sheet in a bank and I'm fully aware of different possible strategies. Problem is, some of those strategies can be focued on the bottom line or RoI/RoE and have little to do with prioritising customer satisfaction or building of long-term relationship. It depends on the management & their plan.

I've nothing against REs like Europa or Grain that are added to the suite of native devices, but putting things in Shop works against 3rd party devs and RE ecosystem. They've already put it in danger with VSTs, so they maybe shouldn't compete with them directly as well? There was a thread recently where some prominent devs expressed their concern with how things are going right now...

Imho it is a good strategy to follow both paths at the same time: one (or more) teams to work on the core, performance and RE integration (SDK), one team to build RE with the SDK (using new features) to test drive it and to get another revenue stream.
Having the SDK as a clear interface between teams actually allows the work to be spread into two teams and thus to be sped up.

http://noop.nl/2009/04/the-optimal-team ... -five.html
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-most- ... pment-team

Throwing more people at a problem can actually delay the development.

[ltbrunt00]

Some of the RE's that the Props have put out were created by 3rd party vendors.
I for one our glad they create RE's that showcase what reason can do like Europa, Grain & PX7.
They seem to create Rack Extensions for devices that our under represented. We can all admit that every RE released from a 3rd party is not a game changer.
I was renting to own Serum and the minute I used Europa I went out to splice and stopped renting Serum. Serum is a behemoth of a Synth but for how I used it Europa is more than I need.
As for the Umpf drums I currently use Toontrack products for all my drumming needs these days but I am !!very!! interested retro beats and will buy it if or when it goes on sale.

[Hydrosonic]

Some of the RE's that the Props have put out were created by 3rd party vendors.
I for one our glad they create RE's that showcase what reason can do like Europa, Grain & PX7.
They seem to create Rack Extensions for devices that our under represented. We can all admit that every RE released from a 3rd party is not a game changer.
I was renting to own Serum and the minute I used Europa I went out to splice and stopped renting Serum. Serum is a behemoth of a Synth but for how I used it Europa is more than I need.
As for the Umpf drums I currently use Toontrack products for all my drumming needs these days but I am !!very!! interested retro beats and will buy it if or when it goes on sale.

It went on sale in the Black Friday Sales, along with Umpf Club Drums, each cost $49 now it seems that Props have reversed their decision and put Umpf Retro back upto full price while Club Drums remains at $49. I get sick of PH messing us all about. I only trialed Retro yesterday with an aim to buy it at $49, but no chance at full price. PH have such a bad attitude towards their customers currently. I've wasted my trial because I don't even see the point in loading the RE knowing I won't be buying it now.

./sigh