Layers...”just” a rompler? Isn’t it?

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HeresJohnny312
Posts: 45
Joined: 26 Feb 2020

Post 27 Feb 2020

ok boomers, Romplers are better at cpu performance, as well as usually starting off with very usable sounds as opposed to programming a synth to get what a rompler already has as a starting point, plus if you like real instruments and you dont play violin or have a section of 16 violinists in your bedroom then a rompler might be a better choice than a synth.....

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TheGodOfRainbows
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Post 03 Mar 2020

Am I crazy, or can you hear the loops points in some of the sounds? I'm currently trialing the Waves Edition of Layers, and not all samples have this issue, but on many of them, I can clearly hear the "pulsating" of a sample that's been looped. Anyone else hearing this?

Isn't that the real issue people have with Romplers? I don't care how the sound is generated, whether its sample base, true synthesis, physical modeling, or whatever. As long as it sounds good. And the only thing holding me back from getting this Layers Waves edition, are those telltale loop pulses.

I would think that through some clever modulation or some other technique, they should be able to mask or hide that loop point better.

BTW, hearing these pulsating loop points is mostly apparent when only listening to one sound at a time (IOW not 'layered' sounds). So, perhaps I'm not using it the way it was intended, and they expect everyone to actually use, well, layers, thereby mitigating this issue. But it still bothers me, because if I had this device, I would definitely want to use just one layer at a time sometimes.

gregmarksimpson
Posts: 60
Joined: 14 Jan 2020

Post 03 Mar 2020

TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
03 Mar 2020
Am I crazy, or can you hear the loops points in some of the sounds? I'm currently trialing the Waves Edition of Layers, and not all samples have this issue, but on many of them, I can clearly hear the "pulsating" of a sample that's been looped. Anyone else hearing this?

Isn't that the real issue people have with Romplers? I don't care how the sound is generated, whether its sample base, true synthesis, physical modeling, or whatever. As long as it sounds good. And the only thing holding me back from getting this Layers Waves edition, are those telltale loop pulses.

I would think that through some clever modulation or some other technique, they should be able to mask or hide that loop point better.

BTW, hearing these pulsating loop points is mostly apparent when only listening to one sound at a time (IOW not 'layered' sounds). So, perhaps I'm not using it the way it was intended, and they expect everyone to actually use, well, layers, thereby mitigating this issue. But it still bothers me, because if I had this device, I would definitely want to use just one layer at a time sometimes.
The samples on the first Layers are the really amazing Pink Noise Analogue Monsters samples that are very well edited and looped and don't do what you describe as far as I can hear.

I believe the samples on Layers Wave Edition are much older samples created by Peter Gorges in 1995; they will likely be more old school sounding by the nature of the memory limitations of samplers back then. It might also be that the pulsating looping is a symptom of the wave samples of the original Waldorf Wave synth that these are samples of (I don't know as I've never played a real one). Either way it's kind of part of the old school charm; Layers Wave Edition essentially emulates an old school sampler that's emulating an old digital synth...

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TheGodOfRainbows
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Post 04 Mar 2020

gregmarksimpson wrote:
03 Mar 2020
TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
03 Mar 2020
Am I crazy, or can you hear the loops points in some of the sounds? I'm currently trialing the Waves Edition of Layers, and not all samples have this issue, but on many of them, I can clearly hear the "pulsating" of a sample that's been looped. Anyone else hearing this?
The samples on the first Layers are the really amazing Pink Noise Analogue Monsters samples that are very well edited and looped and don't do what you describe as far as I can hear.

I believe the samples on Layers Wave Edition are much older samples created by Peter Gorges in 1995; they will likely be more old school sounding by the nature of the memory limitations of samplers back then. It might also be that the pulsating looping is a symptom of the wave samples of the original Waldorf Wave synth that these are samples of (I don't know as I've never played a real one). Either way it's kind of part of the old school charm; Layers Wave Edition essentially emulates an old school sampler that's emulating an old digital synth...
Interesting. I actually just opened a Subtractor initialized, played a chord, and just realized - it has a 'pulse', to use my own word. Ha! Maybe I was being hyper critical and biased because of it being a rompler. Hmm. Well, now you may have swayed me to reconsider Layers.

Still bugs me though, especially on these sounds that seem to have the most pronounced rhythmic pulse: Roads 66, Dark Pad, Jump, Tekno PWM.

But for the most part, they are not all like that. So that's good.

One thing that I think it weird (at least on Waves Edition, i don't know about the first version) is when initialized, in the amp section the LA Multi amount is at 100% for each layer, which really darkens the sound. A lot. Too much I think. Wouldn't it be better to not have that setting maxed out for an initialized patch? The first thing I do is back that knob off when playing around.

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MrFigg
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Post 04 Mar 2020

gregmarksimpson wrote:
03 Mar 2020


The samples on the first Layers are the really amazing Pink Noise Analogue Monsters samples
Really??!!! I’ve got Analogue Monsters. If I’d known they were the same samples I would never have bought Layers. Is that documented somewhere?
丰2ॐ

gregmarksimpson
Posts: 60
Joined: 14 Jan 2020

Post 05 Mar 2020

MrFigg wrote:
04 Mar 2020
gregmarksimpson wrote:
03 Mar 2020


The samples on the first Layers are the really amazing Pink Noise Analogue Monsters samples
Really??!!! I’ve got Analogue Monsters. If I’d known they were the same samples I would never have bought Layers. Is that documented somewhere?
Check out on here: http://www.reasonbanks.com/news.html and scroll down to the News article from 14 September 2017.

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MrFigg
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Post 05 Mar 2020

gregmarksimpson wrote:
05 Mar 2020
MrFigg wrote:
04 Mar 2020


Really??!!! I’ve got Analogue Monsters. If I’d known they were the same samples I would never have bought Layers. Is that documented somewhere?
Check out on here: http://www.reasonbanks.com/news.html and scroll down to the News article from 14 September 2017.
Well, there you go. Props seem to have failed to mention this unless I’ve missed something. Yep. There you go. Not good.
丰2ॐ

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bitley
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Post 16 Nov 2020

TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
03 Mar 2020
Am I crazy, or can you hear the loops points in some of the sounds? I'm currently trialing the Waves Edition of Layers, and not all samples have this issue, but on many of them, I can clearly hear the "pulsating" of a sample that's been looped. Anyone else hearing this?

Isn't that the real issue people have with Romplers? I don't care how the sound is generated, whether its sample base, true synthesis, physical modeling, or whatever. As long as it sounds good. And the only thing holding me back from getting this Layers Waves edition, are those telltale loop pulses.

I would think that through some clever modulation or some other technique, they should be able to mask or hide that loop point better.

BTW, hearing these pulsating loop points is mostly apparent when only listening to one sound at a time (IOW not 'layered' sounds). So, perhaps I'm not using it the way it was intended, and they expect everyone to actually use, well, layers, thereby mitigating this issue. But it still bothers me, because if I had this device, I would definitely want to use just one layer at a time sometimes.
Actually if you study analog synths really closely you'll hear "looping" just from PWM modulation and so on. Some people think this is a bad thing but no; it's actually part of what makes analog synths known to sound alive. Sampling is in most cases the best way of really truly capturing the sound of analog classics. I love a few VSTis too but no, sampling is where I really get THE right sounds from most machines. Manufacturers can't even recreate their own synths in many cases. Roland tried programming D-50 sounds on the Jupiter 80 and it sounded like... um, nothing like the D-50 at all. Sampling has been put to blame way too often in the synth world. Many crows don't know anything but keep craxing all over the place with their misinformed delusions.

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BRIGGS
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Post 16 Nov 2020

If it sounds good, it IS good.
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BRIGGS
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Post 16 Nov 2020

bitley wrote:
16 Nov 2020
Actually if you study analog synths really closely you'll hear "looping" just from PWM modulation and so on. Some people think this is a bad thing but no; it's actually part of what makes analog synths known to sound alive. Sampling is in most cases the best way of really truly capturing the sound of analog classics. I love a few VSTis too but no, sampling is where I really get THE right sounds from most machines. Manufacturers can't even recreate their own synths in many cases. Roland tried programming D-50 sounds on the Jupiter 80 and it sounded like... um, nothing like the D-50 at all. Sampling has been put to blame way too often in the synth world. Many crows don't know anything but keep craxing all over the place with their misinformed delusions.
:puf_smile: Funny you mention the D-50. I just spend a half hour or so, going through this refill:

http://free-reason-refills.com/refill/L ... Fh0HyipY08
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Boombastix
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Post 16 Nov 2020

You know at the end of the day it is the sound that matters. Romplers can sound good or bad, and VA can sound good or bad, also analog hw synths can sound good or bad, and so on.

The "problem" with Romplers is that whatever you captured is baked into the waveform, so you are limited to manipulate it slightly, and often one sample is stretched out so the envelop of filter and amp changes as you play at a higher pitch making the sound unnatural. So you can do more samples going into the Gb range to fix that, but then the sheer loading time and HDD size is a problem.
Try to make a Rompler from an animated TB-303 :lol: Or sample a DX7 patch where the FM amount is velocity sensitive, you would have to sample it like an extensive Grand Piano library. In that case use Dexed or something like that.

But it can sound good and some newer ones with great filters can use raw sampled waves and apply amp and filter env to great effect. But if the sync in a saw sample has to much sync sound you cannot undo that of course. PWM waves get wonky too if you pitch them and play chords. So yeah, limitations. And you cannot capture the chorus (Juno as an example) and play that as a chord with 5 notes all having a chorus that is out of sync with each other. OTOH it isn't until recently that Roland released a fantastic Juno VST emulation that ticks all the boxes, but at high CPU cost.

I like several sampled libraries (Romplers) but most often based on digital synths,. So, using the latest filter DSP and very careful sampling and patch building you can achieve great results. Listen to a demo of UVI USQ-1 as a great example.

Old analog gear didn't always respond to velocity, so it was a pretty static sound, however, you could sync it via midi and then play with filters and envelopes, so to be able to do that in a Rompler does need to use great filter DSP and careful programming.

Anyhoo, in the studios back in the days, you still had to layer synths more often than not to build up your sound, and I see guys nowadays layering 3x Serum to get the final pizzazz they need in the production. So, if you layer 2-3 Romplers you will probably get great results non the less. Layering is sound design in itself.
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bitley
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Post 16 Nov 2020

Yup.

I use a lot of differnent stuff but just like Don Solaris I think the JV and JD synthesizers are amazing and I'm allergic to the slang word Rompler. Roland only ever released one single such machine and it was the U-110 (originally named T-110). The rest of them has (in the case if JV, JD, XP/XV and on - very very deep) programmability.

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bitley
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Post 16 Nov 2020

BRIGGS wrote:
16 Nov 2020
bitley wrote:
16 Nov 2020
Actually if you study analog synths really closely you'll hear "looping" just from PWM modulation and so on. Some people think this is a bad thing but no; it's actually part of what makes analog synths known to sound alive. Sampling is in most cases the best way of really truly capturing the sound of analog classics. I love a few VSTis too but no, sampling is where I really get THE right sounds from most machines. Manufacturers can't even recreate their own synths in many cases. Roland tried programming D-50 sounds on the Jupiter 80 and it sounded like... um, nothing like the D-50 at all. Sampling has been put to blame way too often in the synth world. Many crows don't know anything but keep craxing all over the place with their misinformed delusions.
:puf_smile: Funny you mention the D-50. I just spend a half hour or so, going through this refill:

http://free-reason-refills.com/refill/L ... Fh0HyipY08
The D-50 is one of my dearest old synths. Check my YT to see how I found a mini sequencer inside of it a few weeks ago. ;-)

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BRIGGS
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Post 16 Nov 2020

bitley wrote:
16 Nov 2020
BRIGGS wrote:
16 Nov 2020


:puf_smile: Funny you mention the D-50. I just spend a half hour or so, going through this refill:

http://free-reason-refills.com/refill/L ... Fh0HyipY08
The D-50 is one of my dearest old synths. Check my YT to see how I found a mini sequencer inside of it a few weeks ago. ;-)
That interface is:

Image

:lol:
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bitley
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Post 16 Nov 2020

Haha yes at first maybe :D I grew up on the CZ-101 haha

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Boombastix
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Post 17 Nov 2020

Rompler basically mean Play from ROM, ie stored waveforms. It does not exclude the use of filters and FX, so tones of "Romplers" in both HW and SW actually. Nexus is probably to most famous. But I know many use it as a "bad" word. Just as many despise digital filters, but it all depends. Digital filters trying to emulate analog filters have had several shortcomings until the new ZDF filter technology was developed, then they got much better at getting the high resonance/high frequency behavior more accurate for that analog sound.

But there was several digital filters back in the days that "those who knows" rave about. A bit of a shame we don't get to see them that much in modern VSTs. I'm thinking:
Roland S-770/D-70, nice filter chip (nothing from Roland AFAIK)
E-mu z-plane (discontinued Proteus VX VST)
Waldorf (they have it in Largo VST)
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TheGodOfRainbows
Posts: 507
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Post 18 Nov 2020

bitley wrote:
16 Nov 2020
TheGodOfRainbows wrote:
03 Mar 2020
Am I crazy, or can you hear the loops points in some of the sounds? I'm currently trialing the Waves Edition of Layers, and not all samples have this issue, but on many of them, I can clearly hear the "pulsating" of a sample that's been looped. Anyone else hearing this?

Isn't that the real issue people have with Romplers? I don't care how the sound is generated, whether its sample base, true synthesis, physical modeling, or whatever. As long as it sounds good. And the only thing holding me back from getting this Layers Waves edition, are those telltale loop pulses.

I would think that through some clever modulation or some other technique, they should be able to mask or hide that loop point better.

BTW, hearing these pulsating loop points is mostly apparent when only listening to one sound at a time (IOW not 'layered' sounds). So, perhaps I'm not using it the way it was intended, and they expect everyone to actually use, well, layers, thereby mitigating this issue. But it still bothers me, because if I had this device, I would definitely want to use just one layer at a time sometimes.
Actually if you study analog synths really closely you'll hear "looping" just from PWM modulation and so on. Some people think this is a bad thing but no; it's actually part of what makes analog synths known to sound alive. Sampling is in most cases the best way of really truly capturing the sound of analog classics. I love a few VSTis too but no, sampling is where I really get THE right sounds from most machines. Manufacturers can't even recreate their own synths in many cases. Roland tried programming D-50 sounds on the Jupiter 80 and it sounded like... um, nothing like the D-50 at all. Sampling has been put to blame way too often in the synth world. Many crows don't know anything but keep craxing all over the place with their misinformed delusions.
Thanks for setting me straight. I've since realized that the "looping" was natural and not a byproduct of sampling. Admittedly, I'm sure I perceived it because I'm already expecting to hear a loop point, and I was not listening for that in the plugin synths i have. I'm not too bright sometimes.

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Boombastix
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Post 18 Nov 2020

I have noticed that loop points can be heard as a slight pulsating or pop sound, even in so called high end libraries.

It is sloppy work and not enough time is spent on finding good loop points and right amount of cross fade.

This can get quite time consuming if the sound changes a lot over time. Sampling is an art and before recording you need to anticipate how it will loop so you record enough time. Some record very long samples even when a short will be good making these libraries huge in size and perhaps just use auto-loop, hoping it will be ok.

The work that professionals were doing back in the days when they got paid well has been lost a bit. But they were also constricted to MB and not GB, so sometimes they had to cut the samples short for that reason.

Another short cut is to use just one or a few stretched over the keyboard, and the loop points can sound horrible at higher pitches.

Best is to check before your buy, if possible.
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bitley
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Post 18 Nov 2020

Anyway

A synth I grew up with was the Alpha juno 2. I am deeply nested in knowing how it sounds and behaves. I used to program any sound on it. Even emulating the D-50 with it when I wanted some sounds like that. I have never heard a virtualisation of it that does it full justice. Many of them are enjoyable but they're not sounding like the real machine.

I've multitracked it if you would like to hear it:



Now, of course if I was dedicated to it I could absolutely re-create this with say ReDominator. But: I would have to fake it, you know? I would have to edit every single note to get the Juno sound. And that's the point where I mean sampling can be better. Sampling would give me the actual sound and not someone else's interpretation of it. You know when I did the music I just selected sounds I liked and kept layering and having a creative & fun time. But recreating it virtually would take three four times as long and would be quite painful to do really. I don't know if I explain myself in an understandable way here as I am swedish and not native english but perhaps someone understands what I mean. So anyway if I had all these sounds sampled recreating the track wouldn't be so hard, but it would be harder with VA synthesis.

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