Has Rack Extensions been a success and what do you think REs future will look like?

[Prints]

There's absolutely nothing REs can do that VSTs can't. It's definitely the other way around. I have almost 10 tape emulation VSTs now, and they're all awesome.

If this is in response to owning so many tape emulations, I think they all have different interesting characters, and it's great being able to layer the audio with them in all types of ways. When I try to use them in Reason, I can't use as many, and I end up missing FL Studio's ultra intuitive sequencer & piano roll I strongly prefer.

I feel like RE & Vst are the same thing.

Except that VSTs don't perform as well in Reason, and you can't sell or trade them if you end up not liking or using them much.

[Oquasec]

Well you either like the way reason works or you don't.

[gullum]

RE's have been a great success as far as I'm concerned. I only use RE's in all my productions I've yet to buy my first VST since it's introduction into reason. I have some VST but I never use any at all

[Prints]

Well you either like the way reason works or you don't.

I used to like Reason enough to spend thousands of dollars on REs. But now I prefer FL Studio, and am unable to recoup any of my investment into Reason besides the second-hand value of the license only. It may be an either/or situation with regards to "liking" Reason, but not being able to sell/transfer/trade REs isn't "likable" in any way imo.

[aeox]

There's absolutely nothing REs can do that VSTs can't

It was a response to this

I know there are limitations with RE because of the SDK but the entire point of Reason and RE is the CV/Audio cable routing and making your own devices specifically tailored for your own needs. VST tape emulation market is over-saturated because the VST market is way bigger. I don't even know if there is a tape emu RE, but I don't think it would be impossible to make.

[aeox]

Well you either like the way reason works or you don't.

I used to like Reason enough to spend thousands of dollars on REs. But now I prefer FL Studio, and am unable to recoup any of my investment into Reason besides the second-hand value of the license only. It may be an either/or situation with regards to "liking" Reason, but not being able to sell/transfer/trade REs isn't "likable" in any way imo.

I've already recoup my investment by selling music. That's the way I look at it, not whether or not I can sell my tools off.

[Prints]

I used to like Reason enough to spend thousands of dollars on REs. But now I prefer FL Studio, and am unable to recoup any of my investment into Reason besides the second-hand value of the license only. It may be an either/or situation with regards to "liking" Reason, but not being able to sell/transfer/trade REs isn't "likable" in any way imo.

I've already recoup my investment by selling music. That's the way I look at it, not whether or not I can sell my tools off.

Well, that's fortunate for you I guess. I've had to sell VSTs that didn't jive with me as well as I hoped, and I even sold my Ableton Live 10 Suite too because I wasn't using it as much as FL Studio. It was real nice to end up not losing all that money I spent, and it gave me funds to spend on more VSTs.

It would be ideal if I could do this with all the money I've spent on REs as well, but I'm the only one to blame (I guess) since this paradigm has always been clear. It's a despicable paradigm if you don't like losing money though. They could at least allow transferring of RE licenses, and just charge a transfer or activation fee if they're concerned with making more money I think.

[miscend]

Not sure if the RE market is big enough for that to be a concern. However, from a quick google search, I've seen no Europa cracks so copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue anyway.

Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.

A quick Google search has revealed that Europa has indeed been cracked. But Europa VST doesn't use the same copy protection scheme as Rack Extensions so it is far easier to crack for hackers. All you need is a simple license number for activation, if Props had wanted they could have implemented iLok or Codemeter.

I actually think this development might lead to more preset libraries being made for Europa as it potentially widens the audience. Other popular VSTs like Massive, Serum and Spire are very heavily pirated.

[SebAudio]

I think the best thing that could happen for the RE platform to move forward is if propellerhead would:

1. Enable a way to build VST/AU from the RE assets so that developers can offer their plugins in all three formats, and
2. Enable HD support in the Reason rack, similar to how it's implemented in the Europa VST.

And also some developer/SDK oriented improvements/fixes.

So 1. Is here.
Let’s hope 2. is around the corner

[Faastwalker]

I think you will find two types answers depending on if the person is a customer or developer. As an RE customer, I could not be happier with the products we have got. There really are some world-class instruments and effects that we now have access to.

I just fear their days may be numbered if we find differing answers to this question from developers.

Exactly what I was thinking. I've absolutely loved RE's in Reason as they have obviously expanded the choices we have and the possibilities in Reason. I still prefer RE's over VST any day of the week. It's good to have VST support in Reason, even though I only use a handful of plug-ins. But has VST support had a negative effect on RE's? VST installation is still a PITA. RE's are totally painless in this respect & they obviously integrate better into Reason. Saying that the way VST integration was implemented in Reason was totally sublime.

But RE's are obviously more of a niche market than VST. Reason 11 as a plug-in may go someone to rectifying this. But is it too late? A lot of the bigger name RE's developers have already fallen by the way side. Many developers come & go. We have had some amazing RE's since the technology launched. But you don't get the impression it has been a rip roaring success for many of the developers, which is a real shame I think.

I hope we still see RE's developed from people like JP, RoboticBean, Lectric Panda etc, etc. But I guess it has to be commercially viable to make it worth their time. If not I think the future of RE may end up more like the old ReBirth mod scene with hobbyists & enthusiasts making the bulk of development. I hope I'm wrong about this though. I guess we'll just have to see how things pan out going forward.

[ShelLuser]

For the record: I "blame" Seb & Faast for my current response

Anyway, all jokes aside I think the Rack Extensions have become a huge deal and have become plain out invaluable for Reason users. For me personally it's easy: I can use rack extensions in Reason when it's rewired into Live. Can't do that with VST's as far as I know.

Complex-1 & Parsec (to name but 2) make this a huge deal for me. With special mention of Polar, that RE is plain out sick (in a positive way!).

I like to think that RE's started to gain more revenue for the Props but quickly turned into something bigger than that. I'm probably completely wrong (a lot of companies pursued 3rd party sales and subscriptions at that time as well) but ey.. I'm biased

[Carpainter]

Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.

A quick Google search has revealed that Europa has indeed been cracked. But Europa VST doesn't use the same copy protection scheme as Rack Extensions so it is far easier to crack for hackers. All you need is a simple license number for activation, if Props had wanted they could have implemented iLok or Codemeter.

I actually think this development might lead to more preset libraries being made for Europa as it potentially widens the audience. Other popular VSTs like Massive, Serum and Spire are very heavily pirated.

Codemeter and iLok are wretched DRM schemes. If I couldn't bypass Codemeter, I wouldn't be using Reason. Having to log in to my account every time I open Reason is bad enough, but it's not nearly as bad as having the virus known as Codemeter installed on my machine.

If draconian DRM schemes are the future, I might have to get into hardware again. These DRM schemes make you feel like you're renting software rather than owning it.

[miscend]

A quick Google search has revealed that Europa has indeed been cracked. But Europa VST doesn't use the same copy protection scheme as Rack Extensions so it is far easier to crack for hackers. All you need is a simple license number for activation, if Props had wanted they could have implemented iLok or Codemeter.

I actually think this development might lead to more preset libraries being made for Europa as it potentially widens the audience. Other popular VSTs like Massive, Serum and Spire are very heavily pirated.

Codemeter and iLok are wretched DRM schemes. If I couldn't bypass Codemeter, I wouldn't be using Reason. Having to log in to my account every time I open Reason is bad enough, but it's not nearly as bad as having the virus known as Codemeter installed on my machine.

If draconian DRM schemes are the future, I might have to get into hardware again. These DRM schemes make you feel like you're renting software rather than owning it.

Couldn't bypass Codemeter, what do you mean? Reason cannot run without Codemeter, that's why it hasn't been cracked and it has now been several years.

[Spryx]

I've been a Reason user since v1.0. I have many VSTs and probably around 80% of the total REs released on the market.
I am also a registered developer with RS (I have not release anything because i've never found the time to code....and admittedly, i'm lazy. so there is that).

IMHO, VST support probably did initially hurt the RE market some. Suddenly, developers have to compete in a much larger pool with more with more resources. Despite some developers claims, I don't think RS ever had the intention of "hurting" independent developers. This is a natural progression. You play with the big dogs, or get out.

The 'Reason as a VST' concept should make things more interesting. It may attract more developers to the platform. There are still several advantages.
This is only an example of some problems I have with VSTs:

1. Installing each and every one. This is a pain, especially if you want them stored somewhere other than where the developer suggests.
2. Authorizing each one. Most of them have to be done individually. Except Fabfilter plugs . Some require specialized authorization, (e.g. MPC, Arturia, Soundtoys -- see iLok). I like many others, have to keep a massive folder full of text files and licenses when I want to update or install on a new machine.
3. Checking for updated versions. Most of the time we stick with old versions -- sometimes its even difficult to find out if a new version is available.
4. Updating -- this sometimes brings you back to step 1. It is also impossible to do a mass update like you can with REs.

For developers,
- VSTs have a much larger market. There is no denying that. They can be used by many different hosts.
- REs have a proven copy protection system built in. Many developers become jaded after seeing their plugins pirated. Just look @ the mess on the Avenger group right now in regard to 1.5
- Reason lends itself to unique devices. (CV), etc. This isn't as true as it once was with the advent of modular VST plugins.

I've typed so much, that I forgot where I was going with this.
I think REs have been successful depending on whom you ask.
The future of them is entirely up to RS. If they can provide innovative features to the current SDKs then perhaps they can succeed.
If however, Steinberg (Yamaha) decides on a 'walled-garden' approach to plugins in VST4 (protection, updates, etc), then perhaps it could be the end.

[reddust]

For me personally they aren't either a success nor a failure. I like some REs and I don't like or use many of them.

For me the best thing that could happen is that the music industry finally would meet a standard for additional (third party) instruments in order to make the installation process easier for the end user. What I mean is that I like the way you can purchase and install REs inside Reason but I still prefer VSTi's over REs because of the bigger market and according to that a lot of great instruments and effects I can get.

The only contra I find is that the installation process for VST can get pretty annoying and I think that should be slowly corrected into some standardization that lets every DAW have its own VST installation window where the DAW communicates with the vendor and the end user doesn't need to install iLok, Native Access or any license manager like FXPansion's, ROLI, Arturia, XLN Audio, iZotope, EastWest...

it would be much better if I could tell my DAW to search for the VST instruments installed on my computer (which I have to do either way) and then the DAW should ask me which ones I want to activate and ask me for the serial number or even better, clearing this for me in the background if I log in with the associated account to my purchased VST. Also something similar to how Reason handles RES licenses.

[Carpainter]

Codemeter and iLok are wretched DRM schemes. If I couldn't bypass Codemeter, I wouldn't be using Reason. Having to log in to my account every time I open Reason is bad enough, but it's not nearly as bad as having the virus known as Codemeter installed on my machine.

If draconian DRM schemes are the future, I might have to get into hardware again. These DRM schemes make you feel like you're renting software rather than owning it.

Couldn't bypass Codemeter, what do you mean? Reason cannot run without Codemeter, that's why it hasn't been cracked and it has now been several years.

When you run Reason with internet verification, you're bypassing Codemeter completely. You only need to install Codemeter on your computer if you want to run Reason offline.

I held off on upgrading my older version of Reason until they added the internet verification option. I was using Reason 5 for years.

[miscend]

Couldn't bypass Codemeter, what do you mean? Reason cannot run without Codemeter, that's why it hasn't been cracked and it has now been several years.

When you run Reason with internet verification, you're bypassing Codemeter completely. You only need to install Codemeter on your computer if you want to run Reason offline.

I held off on upgrading my older version of Reason until they added the internet verification option. I was using Reason 5 for years.

AFAIK that is not the case. Codemeter is installed automatically when you install Reason. It’s deeply integrated inside Reasons code. Codemeter supports internet verification via cloud server, computer authorisation and as well the Cm stick usb dongle.

[tiker01]

When you run Reason with internet verification, you're bypassing Codemeter completely. You only need to install Codemeter on your computer if you want to run Reason offline.

I held off on upgrading my older version of Reason until they added the internet verification option. I was using Reason 5 for years.

AFAIK that is not the case. Codemeter is installed automatically when you install Reason. It’s deeply integrated inside Reasons code. Codemeter supports internet verification via cloud server, computer authorisation and as well the Cm stick usb dongle.

Not anymore. You can find info ok no this on Reason Studios website.

[Carpainter]

When you run Reason with internet verification, you're bypassing Codemeter completely. You only need to install Codemeter on your computer if you want to run Reason offline.

I held off on upgrading my older version of Reason until they added the internet verification option. I was using Reason 5 for years.

AFAIK that is not the case. Codemeter is installed automatically when you install Reason. It’s deeply integrated inside Reasons code. Codemeter supports internet verification via cloud server, computer authorisation and as well the Cm stick usb dongle.

Interesting. The way the 8.2 patch notes are worded, they make it sounds like Codemeter isn't being used when you run with Internet Verification: "Reason and Authorizer no longer includes the Codemeter driver. Reason will run with Internet Verification (or in Demo Mode) without Codemeter. Codemeter can be downloaded separately for new users, should they need to run Reason without internet access." I never took into consideration that it was embedded in Reason's .exe file. If that's the case, it would explain why I noticed an increase in CPU usage when I upgraded to Reason 10 from Reason 5 and why Reason still hasn't been cracked.

[ltbrunt00]

I am a fan of the rent to own option and will continue buying some RE's using this method.
There are RE's that I buy instantly full price, then there are other RE devices that I want to continue using but short on cash to purchase the full prices.
Then there are some RE's that I have paid for a few months then after really trying to give them a go realized they are not for me and in the end I saved money only spending about 30 dollars versus 100 dollars.
Sometimes when I trial these devices I go in thinking I am going to spend 20 to 30 hrs that week working in Reason then life stuff happens and month goes by. The rent to own works because I view 9.99 as a throw away amount of money.
That is 3 less coffees at work. Then having more time to get to know the device allows me to really find out if it is a good tool.
Sometimes after a few months I know that the device is worthy of further investment and sometimes it isn't.
spending 30 to 40 bucks on something is a heck of a lot better than paying 60 to 100 plus on everything you use.
I will continue to use rack extensions due to the high flexibility of the format.

[dioxide]

For me REs have been a success. I use them constantly in my productions and they opened up the Reason rack to lots of things that weren't possible before. Their future-proof side and ease of installation are also big pluses to me. The question in 2019 is how will they hold up as a viable format against VSTs? And another question might be what will the plugin world in general do next? I think we're pretty much at saturation point now, so I'm interested to see what people are going to offer next. We've all got most of the instruments and effects we need already.

[moneykube]

We've all got most of the instruments and effects we need already.

more then enough...