Has Rack Extensions been a success and what do you think REs future will look like?

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
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fotizimo
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26 Oct 2018

hurricane wrote:
26 Oct 2018
Sure.

The future of Reason - in MY opinion - should not rely HEAVILY on niche Eurorack devices because it is a VERY small piece of the pie Propellerhead are baking. You want to turn Reason into this boutique Eurorack collective and I vote NAY because in the words of those Bud Light Commercials - "FOR THE MANY, NOT THE FEW" - If you want to flip the menu and fill it primarily with your full-bodied autumnal meads, you'll be put in restraints.

The future of Reason should not rely heavily on Eurorack devices, but instead on *gasp* MOAR UJAM*(see footnote). I hate to say it, but it is what it is.

Dilly dilly.

* what he means is more immediate (less tweaky) and playable devices aimed at the more 'general' Reason audience. Devices like Layers, Umpf, A-List, Beatmaker, etc.
Why not both? I have no interest in that format of UJAM devices, but neither do I think that PH should go all-in on Eurorack stuff. But I would love to see both flourish within Reason if users like them.

If I could ask only one thing of PH, that thing would be to focus on the system/platform, and let developers create the instruments. Build a powerful product and then empower devs to the platform through API and SDK access. Reward and provide incentives to developers financially when they create successful devices within the environment, which draw customers to the platform/product. I think it is great PH make some REs here and there, but their day-to-day work should be on focusing around the product and their 3rd party devs. PH should be putting far more effort into getting big names to create content (refills) and big devs to create instruments (REs) and pour the PH dev teams into the core product.

I get the feeling PH isn't doing any of these things well enough and the devs are starting to move elsewhere. I hear from devs like Jiggery Pokery that PH basically treat devs with disdain these days. This is going to be PH's death knell if true, and Reason will eventually wither. Devs should be given far more access to their success and visibility into what they are making for Reason. It is my understanding that devs can't see even basic information on their sales outside of total sales numbers, nor really help with developing within the confines of the SDK. That is farce and someone at PH should get fired for this. There should be a person (at least) whose sole function at PH is to reach out to the dev community, help them build the brand and foster a robust community.

But what we are getting is the opposite, and products like Reason Compact are the example of this. A product nowhere near a compact music making solution, with a minimum of 3rd party support. They even had to wait until the first update to add midi support. Even figure was better than Compact, and they dumped that.

So if REs are going to be successful, Propellerheads have really got to change their current strategy, and be far, far, far more proactive with their 3rd party developers, whom they should be seeing as partners. I feel this is lacking.

Well that is my Friday afternoon rant.
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hurricane
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26 Oct 2018

Kirk - I see you feel attacked or something? But that's no reason to make shit up because who ever said anything about leaving Reason for lack of preset devices? NOT I, Sir. I SAID I WOULDN'T BUY REs - in the hypothetical eurorack-centric future for Reason.

Anyway, there are already a TON of CV devices and tweaky thingamajigs - and that's what Reason needs more of for it to really make it into the big leagues. Screw those devices that appeal to the mass market.*(see footnote)

And besides, who cares what I say anyway? :puf_smile:


* that was sarcasm
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KirkMarkarian
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26 Oct 2018

hurricane wrote:
26 Oct 2018
Kirk - I see you feel attacked or something? But that's no reason to make shit up because who ever said anything about leaving Reason for lack of preset devices? NOT I, Sir. I SAID I WOULDN'T BUY REs - in the hypothetical eurorack-centric future for Reason.

Anyway, there are already a TON of CV devices and tweaky thingamajigs - and that's what Reason needs more of for it to really make it into the big leagues. Screw those devices that appeal to the mass market.*(see footnote)

And besides, who cares what I say anyway? :puf_smile:


* that was sarcasm
Best answer ever! Nice :D I mean it.

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kuhliloach
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26 Oct 2018

Rack Extensions are my favorite type of plug-in because they are the easiest to install, I don't need to keep track of any serial numbers, and Reason is my main DAW. As Reason matures my investments into RE's become even more viable. The few VST's I own have become a source of frustration due to licensing issues as I move between desktop, laptop, Windows and OSX systems. Propellerhead software has achieved what Apple achieved with the App Store--an amazing feat.

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pongasoft
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27 Oct 2018

Here is my take as a RE developer.

I have been wanting to write a new RE for 2+ years now but the SDK does not allow me to (although the functionalities that I need are available in stock devices like Redrum). I have exchanged emails with development support (back in Oct 2016!) and even the CEO... As somebody was pointing out the SDK changes at a glacier pace... this is really unfortunate.

So in the meantime, while waiting for the features I need, I switched to VST development. I have definitely been enjoying the "freedom" of not having to deal with broken build servers, (ultra) slow turn around (acceptance testing, shop page, etc...)...

I am not ruling out working on some RE in the future but it all depends on how the SDK evolves (and how the company does too).

It's obvious that each environment (VST or RE) from a dev point of view has its pros and cons. I think what would make a lot of sense for Propellerhead would be to implement an automatic wrapper from an RE into a VST device: as an RE dev you continue to work on one platform and you push your (intermediary) build to them. They then take care of the packaging for all platforms (Win vs Mac), format (RE vs VST), DRM protection and delivery (shop).

Yan

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eXode
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27 Oct 2018

I think the best thing that could happen for the RE platform to move forward is if propellerhead would:

1. Enable a way to build VST/AU from the RE assets so that developers can offer their plugins in all three formats, and
2. Enable HD support in the Reason rack, similar to how it's implemented in the Europa VST.

And also some developer/SDK oriented improvements/fixes.

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Zac
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27 Oct 2018

eXode wrote:
27 Oct 2018
I think the best thing that could happen for the RE platform to move forward is if propellerhead would:

1. Enable a way to build VST/AU from the RE assets so that developers can offer their plugins in all three formats, and
2. Enable HD support in the Reason rack, similar to how it's implemented in the Europa VST.

And also some developer/SDK oriented improvements/fixes.
Do you think this might happen?

It would really surprise me if any of this happens soon. It seems the new investors are more interested in the ephemeral. Such as marketing and selling strategy. Can't blame them. But in my opinion it's all pretty amateur right now. The shop is a mess. The rack extension activity is the lowest I've seen in terms of new racks. It seems very directionless and lazy to me. The lack of ambition is the most worrisome IMO.

I don't care too much anymore since we have vsts but i would be mad as a march hare if i was an RE dev.

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eXode
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27 Oct 2018

Zac wrote:
27 Oct 2018
eXode wrote:
27 Oct 2018
I think the best thing that could happen for the RE platform to move forward is if propellerhead would:

1. Enable a way to build VST/AU from the RE assets so that developers can offer their plugins in all three formats, and
2. Enable HD support in the Reason rack, similar to how it's implemented in the Europa VST.

And also some developer/SDK oriented improvements/fixes.
Do you think this might happen?

It would really surprise me if any of this happens soon. It seems the new investors are more interested in the ephemeral. Such as marketing and selling strategy. Can't blame them. But in my opinion it's all pretty amateur right now. The shop is a mess. The rack extension activity is the lowest I've seen in terms of new racks. It seems very directionless and lazy to me. The lack of ambition is the most worrisome IMO.

I don't care too much anymore since we have vsts but i would be mad as a march hare if i was an RE dev.
I don't know if it will happen, but I would also be really surprised if it happened soon. :|

seqoi
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28 Oct 2018

QVprod wrote:
25 Oct 2018
chimp_spanner wrote:
25 Oct 2018
I'd love to see PH develop a system for porting REs directly to VST. Europa was a good test case for this although I don't know how much manual work is required. Back panel CV would translate well to host automation, so if every rack had a little menu for assigning things on the back to automation IDs then that'd be awesome.

Customers would win, as they can switch between DAWs as they need to without having to re-invest in VST equivalents. And developers would win because non Reason users could buy their plugins.

On the flip side, the only thing that would be a problem is copy protection. Currently all REs are protected by the PH server. If they were in VST format, I doubt it'd be long before cracked versions started to appear and then developers would be hurting again because people could download that instead of buying the RE.

Hmm.
Not sure if the RE market is big enough for that to be a concern. However, from a quick google search, I've seen no Europa cracks so copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue anyway.
Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.

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fullforce
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28 Oct 2018

Some RE's are fantastic. Others are pure junk and PH should be ashamed to even let them in the store.
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fullforce
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28 Oct 2018

seqoi wrote:
28 Oct 2018
Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.
Fun fact, some artists use a cracked version because it gives less hassle than to install the paid version.
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QVprod
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28 Oct 2018

seqoi wrote:
28 Oct 2018
Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.
I've already acknowledged being wrong on cracks (though they seem to be pretty obscure) in a previous post. However, people who crack software often times wouldn't buy it anyway, so there's not really much loss in that regard. I don't think that should be a factor as to why VSTs shouldn't be released.
fullforce wrote:
28 Oct 2018

Fun fact, some artists use a cracked version because it gives less hassle than to install the paid version.
This is true for some plugins with complicated authorization, however plugins like Europa and other serial based plugins, They just didn't want to pay for it.

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Loque
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28 Oct 2018

fullforce wrote:
28 Oct 2018
seqoi wrote:
28 Oct 2018
Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.
Fun fact, some artists use a cracked version because it gives less hassle than to install the paid version.
Thats bs. Its just poor and stupid. Probably that VST includes a free bitcoin miner or some other stuff for free.
Reason12, Win10

scratchnsnifff
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29 Oct 2018

eXode wrote:
27 Oct 2018
I think the best thing that could happen for the RE platform to move forward is if propellerhead would:

1. Enable a way to build VST/AU from the RE assets so that developers can offer their plugins in all three formats, and
2. Enable HD support in the Reason rack, similar to how it's implemented in the Europa VST.


And also some developer/SDK oriented improvements/fixes.
That would be so awesome!
I love this concept, I feel like big synths like expanse or any of the others in that category would benefit greatly if they were able to be used in a multi platform setting
Iv had an idea that kind of takes the kiloheartz multipass idea mixed with the vst container

A Rack extension loading device that gets housed inside of a Re->vst wrapper
And when hitting tab you’d get to use the CV connections but only within each device
The wrapper could have a couple of envelopes and a in house LFO with a spider cv merger splitter

This would allow reason users in other dates to truely get the Reason feel. I don’t know diddily squat about coding, but I think only porting devices wouldn’t be enough.
Also having a mini cv feature might inspire some to try out Reason for its full functionality.
P.S exode. Do you have any wavetable packs anywhere? I love that last addition to expanses table set:) I wouldn’t say no if you guys added more, or sold a pack of them, maybe some tables that use the vs waves but are more of a traditional table with crossfadind instead of glitchy?
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PSoames
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29 Oct 2018

fullforce wrote:
28 Oct 2018
seqoi wrote:
28 Oct 2018
Oh i can assure you Europa VST crack exist out there and i've seen it being used on few gigs by people. I know for a fact cause i asked them and they pinpointed me even the name of group released it. For obvious reason i am not going to add more info on this because i don't support cracks but the point is - crack is out there and imho PH should never release their tools as VST because they will be cracked next day.
Fun fact, some artists use a cracked version because it gives less hassle than to install the paid version.
I wonder how those artists would feel about their work being stolen and freely distributed.

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Loque
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29 Oct 2018

PSoames wrote:
29 Oct 2018
fullforce wrote:
28 Oct 2018


Fun fact, some artists use a cracked version because it gives less hassle than to install the paid version.
I wonder how those artists would feel about their work being stolen and freely distributed.
I guess it is ok. They are artists and they dont want money for their gigs or art...
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ltbrunt00
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29 Oct 2018

I think the Rack Extensions have been a huge success. The only issue with being available for one ecosystem is that once you obtain all the devices you want like multiple wave, FM, Additive, spectral synthesis you then no longer need any additional devices. Then add in VST your left with this huge library of unused devices.
I just started using Grain recently and it has been out for a year. To many choices, then when new devices come out which may be on par or better than what you own. You hold back buying anything new to avoid having to may similar devices.

I do use Studio one quite a bit and bitwig every so often. I would love if the Props would create an Kontakt type container for Rack Extensions. Give it a fair price and let the RE environment thrive outside of Reason. This would be no different than rewire or the RX2 recycle format.

Overall I like Rack Extensions better than VST but since Rack Extensions don't cover all music genres I happily purchased VST instruments. Rack Extensions as a whole are easier to manage, install and update. I upgraded my computer once in the last year and getting all my VST plugins re-licensed and working in Reason, Studio and Bitwig was sort of an nightmare. Kontakt instruments are easier to manage.
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QVprod
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29 Oct 2018

Loque wrote:
29 Oct 2018
PSoames wrote:
29 Oct 2018


I wonder how those artists would feel about their work being stolen and freely distributed.
I guess it is ok. They are artists and they dont want money for their gigs or art...
The artists that do this generally also own a license as well. Just some developers (like Waves) have terrible authorization options for people with multiple computers. Not advocating for piracy but for people who have actually payed money for the product, I understand the reasoning.

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Loque
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29 Oct 2018

QVprod wrote:
29 Oct 2018
Loque wrote:
29 Oct 2018


I guess it is ok. They are artists and they dont want money for their gigs or art...
The artists that do this generally also own a license as well. Just some developers (like Waves) have terrible authorization options for people with multiple computers. Not advocating for piracy but for people who have actually payed money for the product, I understand the reasoning.
I agree on such cases. I have some games which copy protection tricked themselves so they don't run anymore in newer OS. In the past i got a crack in that time. Today i never buy again from that companies. Same for too many bugs. I don't accept this anymore.
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antic604

29 Oct 2018

QVprod wrote:
29 Oct 2018
The artists that do this generally also own a license as well. Just some developers (like Waves) have terrible authorization options for people with multiple computers. Not advocating for piracy but for people who have actually payed money for the product, I understand the reasoning.
It would never occur to me to use pirated copies on such occasions, but I surely get it - just today I got Scheps Omni Channel (shy of $27 with 31OFF code) and had to reinstall all Waves plugins to have it visible in my DAWs. It's really pain in the ass :(

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fullforce
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30 Oct 2018

PSoames wrote:
29 Oct 2018
I wonder how those artists would feel about their work being stolen and freely distributed.
Being artists that ACTUALLY OWN A LICENSE to said software.
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Prints
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30 Oct 2018

After switching to FL Studio, and using VSTs, I never want to go back. There's absolutely nothing REs can do that VSTs can't. It's definitely the other way around. I have almost 10 tape emulation VSTs now, and they're all awesome.

I deeply regret the thousands of dollars I spent on REs over the years because I'm stuck with that loss now. I far more enjoy & appreciate the communities of people selling & trading VSTs. It encourages more experimentation with a broader range of tools without the fear of absolutely losing your investment if a wrong choice is made; i.e. Reason's paradigm.

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Oquasec
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30 Oct 2018

I feel like RE & Vst are the same thing.
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aeox
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30 Oct 2018

Prints wrote:
30 Oct 2018
There's absolutely nothing REs can do that VSTs can't. It's definitely the other way around. I have almost 10 tape emulation VSTs now, and they're all awesome.
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O1B
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30 Oct 2018

I welcome any and all clever FX modules, and CV devices.

Paying $150 for it (software FX) ... those days are over for me.
I have the big things... but, there's plenty of room for the clever little things.

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