Has Rack Extensions been a success and what do you think REs future will look like?

[TritoneAddiction]

Share your opinions and predictions.

[fotizimo]

I think you will find two types answers depending on if the person is a customer or developer. As an RE customer, I could not be happier with the products we have got. There really are some world-class instruments and effects that we now have access to.

I just fear their days may be numbered if we find differing answers to this question from developers.

[chimp_spanner]

I'd love to see PH develop a system for porting REs directly to VST. Europa was a good test case for this although I don't know how much manual work is required. Back panel CV would translate well to host automation, so if every rack had a little menu for assigning things on the back to automation IDs then that'd be awesome.

Customers would win, as they can switch between DAWs as they need to without having to re-invest in VST equivalents. And developers would win because non Reason users could buy their plugins.

On the flip side, the only thing that would be a problem is copy protection. Currently all REs are protected by the PH server. If they were in VST format, I doubt it'd be long before cracked versions started to appear and then developers would be hurting again because people could download that instead of buying the RE.

Hmm.

[QVprod]

I'd love to see PH develop a system for porting REs directly to VST. Europa was a good test case for this although I don't know how much manual work is required. Back panel CV would translate well to host automation, so if every rack had a little menu for assigning things on the back to automation IDs then that'd be awesome.

Customers would win, as they can switch between DAWs as they need to without having to re-invest in VST equivalents. And developers would win because non Reason users could buy their plugins.

On the flip side, the only thing that would be a problem is copy protection. Currently all REs are protected by the PH server. If they were in VST format, I doubt it'd be long before cracked versions started to appear and then developers would be hurting again because people could download that instead of buying the RE.

Hmm.

Not sure if the RE market is big enough for that to be a concern. However, from a quick google search, I've seen no Europa cracks so copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue anyway.

[Wobbleburger]

I love RE's. I also really enjoy the subscription service. It would be *so* cool if all of them were rent to own.

[FLVZ]

In the context that REs came about and the environment they existed in for so long, I'd say absolutely they were a success. I admit I was extremely excited when VST compatability came about, but I kind of ended up not really buying that many and still prefer to buy REs. I think this is the case with a few other users and is an indicator of some form of success. HOWEVER, the limitation of the format in the current environment where they now compete with seemingly boundless (in terms of design architecture) VSTs, it doesn't look great. I can see Lectric Panda doing well because they literally create devices so specifically dedicated to how Reason works and they are brilliant devices too. I think the only way for the format to thrive is with a significantly better SDK, and for that to happen it has to be more than just Props getting in developing the platform farther. Its a communal thing and a big one at that, and thus needs to be handled by multiple teams in order to reach its potential because the early signs showed a lot of promise (Apple would not be as big as it is now if Steve Jobs didn't opt to go public with its stock). There are many things to love about REs so I'll focus on enjoying the great things they bring to my production experiences, and hopefully resources are put forward in future to ensure their longevity!

TLDR: Yeah they are a success, but for how much longer if the developers don't have the tools to compete in this new climate.

[aeox]

I'd love to see PH develop a system for porting REs directly to VST. Europa was a good test case for this although I don't know how much manual work is required. Back panel CV would translate well to host automation, so if every rack had a little menu for assigning things on the back to automation IDs then that'd be awesome.

Customers would win, as they can switch between DAWs as they need to without having to re-invest in VST equivalents. And developers would win because non Reason users could buy their plugins.

On the flip side, the only thing that would be a problem is copy protection. Currently all REs are protected by the PH server. If they were in VST format, I doubt it'd be long before cracked versions started to appear and then developers would be hurting again because people could download that instead of buying the RE.

Hmm.

Not sure if the RE market is big enough for that to be a concern. However, from a quick google search, I've seen no Europa cracks so copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue anyway.

I found one :/ it was cracked right after it came out

[QVprod]

Not sure if the RE market is big enough for that to be a concern. However, from a quick google search, I've seen no Europa cracks so copy protection doesn't seem to be an issue anyway.

I found one :/ it was cracked right after it came out

Ok I'll take being wrong on that point. Not as easy to find as some others though.

[hurricane]

I figure that if REs were a goldmine, we'd be seeing WAY more REs released by the already established RE developers.

It's unfortunate they enabled VST support cuz most of these first- timers can't hang with the VST boys (with a few exceptions).

I would have definitely purchased SAW-1 pre-VST, but I have Sylenth so I'm good (and it's better sound wise and GUIwise).

I'm glad I don't have all my audio production eggs in one basket.

Just my opinion, I know nothing.

[Faastwalker]

I love RE's. As a Reason user I always prefer Re's over VST's. I've only EVER bought about 5 or 6 VST's. Not a fan. But I'm not very confident about the future of RE's. Development of the development kit appears to have been a little slow. A lot of developers have fallen by the way side after being extremely positive initially. VST support I think is another nail in the coffin for RE's, despite what anyone says on this front. however the developers we have now give me a lot of hope. The likes of Jiggery Pokery, Lectric Panda, Robotic Bean. There are lot more but these are some of the most prolific. It's also hugely exciting to see Eurorack manufacturer Noise Engineering getting on board. So who knows what will happen. I hope RE's continue. Only time will tell.

[Oquasec]

I think the future of reason would rely heavily on Eurorack makers to port all of their shit to Reason.

[Timmy Crowne]

I think the RE market has had some success but its potential has been largely limited by trying to keep up with the VST market which has had a significant head-start and a much broader and well-established developer base.

Still, RE’s can have a bright future if they can reach into territory that can’t be accessed by VST’s. For example, the RE format could be extended to allow for third-party sequencers, quantizers, chord tracks, auto-arrangers, auto-orchestrators, mix channels, even entire racks. The new player devices do this to a basic degree.

If Reason became more modular, RE’s could do things VST’s could never touch. An entirely new market would be created that wouldn’t be in direct competition with the infinite sea of finely tuned VST synths and compressors.

[antic604]

Regardless of everything, I think it's a success:

- for Props, because they obviously get a cut from every sale and user-base is tied to Reason with the REs they can't sell or recoup while selling Reason license,

- for developers, because many of them are too small to make their mark and compete on a VST market and while the sales likely aren't that big (although if you factor in VST piracy they really might be comparable), I believe Props provides them with a lot of tools to make the development easier, takes care of providing a market-place and visibility and provides technological infrastructure for hosting, updates, etc.,

- for users, because in addition to many 1st class instrument & effects (even compared to VSTs) we also get lots of very unusual, dedicated REs that are only possible & make sense in Reason; on top of that we get 1-click purchase, management & updating of 3rd party devices and wonderful functional and graphical integration with the Rack, which is very uncommon for other DAWs,

So yeah, for me this is one of the biggest advantages Reason has and I'd love to see Props taking it further. As I mentioned this when Europa VST was launched, I could see their end-game being a tool-set that'd allow to convert REs into VSTs (and web-apps eventually) and sell through Props shop - with the just added rent-to-own option! - with all the benefits of single account. Who knows, maybe such VSTs - converted from REs - could also get additional piracy protection and automatic updates? Sure, big players like Waves, NI, etc. probably wouldn't give away the control they have over their users with their proprietary installers, but smaller ones would probably be happy to avoid some of the mundane technical burden for a small cut in - probably higher - sales.

[Jagwah]

I like to think of it in a simplified way as it makes it very clear:

I spent 'X' amount of dollars on Reason upgrades pre-Rack Extensions.

Then Rack Extensions came and I spent over ten times that amount.

__________

Business wise it was a great move, I think many of us sunk a lot of money in to REs. I have no REgrets and I doubt too many do.

I thought from the very beginning the money I spent on REs would be returned to Reason itself, and updates and new features would come in much faster than we were used to. It was a nice thought

Now that VSTs are here I'm not sure how it will change things moving forward, I think the change won't be too drastic.

My Rack Extensions will continue to serve me well as they have done all along. I expect Reason will continue to be upgrading, so I have no reservations about my RE purchases.

[avasopht]

I'd say it's been a success if everyone involved won: developers, propellerhead, and users.

[KirkMarkarian]

I think the future of reason would rely heavily on Eurorack makers to port all of their shit to Reason.

ABSOLUTELY!!! It is a worthy endeavor and should be done ASAP.

[two shoes]

The rack extension format has one fatal flaw in my opinion - that you cannot transfer them to a new owner along with your Reason license if you decide to sell it at some point. Most of the studios and serious hobbyists who spend thousands of dollars on plugins are going to be hesitant to invest heavily in a format that restricts their right to sell software they've purchased. If you can't sell something you don't really own it in my book.

Interestingly, from what I can tell, Propellerhead's policy of not allowing RE licenses to be resold might violate certain EU consumer protection regulations which are some of the most progressive in the world, but I've never heard of anyone challenging them on it nor do I know how you would go about doing so.

[Adabler]

Interestingly, from what I can tell, Propellerhead's policy of not allowing RE licenses to be resold is a violation of certain EU consumer protection regulations which are the most progressive in the world, but I've never heard of anyone challenging them on it nor do I know how you would go about doing so. If I lived in Europe I'd probably look into it.

3. No transfer. You may not transfer, rent, lease, or sublicense the RE Product (other than to the extent that such right is expressly granted under applicable mandatory law).
https://www.propellerheads.com/agreemen ... oduct-eula

This seems to suggest, depending of the wording in the regulation you are referring to, that RE's can be transferred, at least for EU citizens.

[FLVZ]

I think the future of reason would rely heavily on Eurorack makers to port all of their shit to Reason.

But if they can do it for VSTs which we will still have access to but gives them access to a bigger market why would they go down the RE side of things? I mean first of all there would have to be massive interest in the market for it for them to go niche right? Not all Reason users are interested in the modular stuff so we're talking about a segmented niche market, which isn't the most appealing type of market to go into...

[KirkMarkarian]

But if they can do it for VSTs which we will still have access to but gives them access to a bigger market why would they go down the RE side of things? I mean first of all there would have to be massive interest in the market for it for them to go niche right? Not all Reason users are interested in the modular stuff so we're talking about a segmented niche market, which isn't the most appealing type of market to go into...

Because Reason is for special! I LOVE Reason, it's REs. After I've had lots of issues with VSTs crashing, I gave up on 'em. Every DAW, every app, every time. VST crashes the program or itself. (your experiences may vary, but this is my personal experience).

REs rarely crash, and what's more fun than connecting cords to jacks? Nothing! Everybody loves wires and jacks - yeah, I'm joking. But not really, I love that this software has a direct connection to my community college days, back at good 'ol DuPage with Ken Paoli.

[aeox]

I think the RE market has had some success but its potential has been largely limited by trying to keep up with the VST market which has had a significant head-start and a much broader and well-established developer base.

Still, RE’s can have a bright future if they can reach into territory that can’t be accessed by VST’s. For example, the RE format could be extended to allow for third-party sequencers, quantizers, chord tracks, auto-arrangers, auto-orchestrators, mix channels, even entire racks. The new player devices do this to a basic degree.

If Reason became more modular, RE’s could do things VST’s could never touch. An entirely new market would be created that wouldn’t be in direct competition with the infinite sea of finely tuned VST synths and compressors.

RE can already do things that VST can never touch. This is why I quit FL studio and VST cold turkey and switched to Reason in 2017

[hurricane]

I think the future of reason would rely heavily on Eurorack makers to port all of their shit to Reason.

Ha - then watch me and the majority of Reason's users (the thousands NOT on this site) never buy a RE again. But at least the few hundred of you eurorack lovers + Reason owners (if there are even that many) would be happy.

[KirkMarkarian]

I think the future of reason would rely heavily on Eurorack makers to port all of their shit to Reason.

Ha - then watch me and the majority of Reason's users (the thousands NOT on this site) never buy a RE again. But at least the few hundred of you eurorack lovers + Reason owners (if there are even that many) would be happy.

More synthesis and audio processing options would make people not buy Rack Extensions? Did somebody say the more traditional or experimental styles of synths would disappear or stop being made? More modular synth options would stifle RE sales? Probably one of the more bizarre comments I've seen on this forum. Please, would you mind clarifying your statement? I'm honestly curious.

[hurricane]

Sure.

The future of Reason - in MY opinion - should not rely HEAVILY on niche Eurorack devices because it is a VERY small piece of the pie Propellerhead are baking. You want to turn Reason into this boutique Eurorack collective and I vote NAY because in the words of those Bud Light Commercials - "FOR THE MANY, NOT THE FEW" - If you want to flip the menu and fill it primarily with your full-bodied autumnal meads, you'll be put in restraints.

The future of Reason should not rely heavily on Eurorack devices, but instead on *gasp* MOAR UJAM*(see footnote). I hate to say it, but it is what it is.

Dilly dilly.

* what he means is more immediate (less tweaky) and playable devices aimed at the more 'general' Reason audience. Devices like Layers, Umpf, A-List, Beatmaker, etc.

[KirkMarkarian]

Your idea of more pre-made, in the box, commercial-ready devices is really useful. But if you want to leave the DAW for a lack of preset devices, why did you pick Reason? The entire idea behind Reason was to creatively connect devices in both traditional and non-traditional ways, and to make different sounds AND traditional sounds. Are you upset at your purchase?

It's a legitimate set of questions. No attack here, just genuine interest in your comments and choice(s). Fruity Loops (or whatever it's called nowadays) is way more conducive to the making of music for the common person. Same with StudioOne and a few others. I would recommend Ableton or Bitwig, but even those two lean a bit more towards the creation of less commonplace music.

Also, not a mead-drinking hipster, I've been using Reason since v2. Was using Rebirth before that. Gen X'er here It sure would be nice if you could just answer the questions I ask(ed) without the drama. I am glad you responded, sure wish I didn't have to sift through the attitude.