Wish OchenK would come back!

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Undistraction

26 Sep 2018

It's the perfect lock-in. We as users can't really do anything without hurting ourselves and RE devs. Re devs can't do anything without hurting themselves and their users. Propellerheade control of the supply chain and none of us can shop elsewhere. The most effective thing would probably be to boycott the next paid release, but given how badly in need of an update Reason is, I imagine we'll be all over it like flies on a fresh turd.

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Lizard
Posts: 464
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

26 Sep 2018

Speculative thought.... might Re sales as a whole not lived up to the development costs to create the platform? Yes... there are several in the shop but never quite grabbed the attention of larger developers where the number of sales based off company reputation would bring in a higher volume of sales. Initially it did with u-he as an example but several eventually abandoning further developing. Upgrades seem to be on the slow side to move the SDK forward and it certainly seems that Re Developers aren't short of requests. On that premise it would seem development capitol may only be provided from the more positive effects from the addition of VST and improvements to the existing platform. Again...only a theory. Personally I still use Reason because it is the DAW I enjoy most working in. The benefit of both Rack and VST is a pleasure but do seem to work against each other in a competitive market and does not favor the Re developer it would seem. It is a shame. Europa VST happened. I'll be more worried when we start to see Thor VST, OctoRex VST and Kong VST. This signals the great move. Shit hits the fan when Subtractor goes VST! :shock:

Undistraction

26 Sep 2018

Lizard wrote:
26 Sep 2018
Speculative thought.... might Re sales as a whole not lived up to the development costs to create the platform? Yes... there are several in the shop but never quite grabbed the attention of larger developers where the number of sales based off company reputation would bring in a higher volume of sales. Initially it did with u-he as an example but several eventually abandoning further developing. Upgrades seem to be on the slow side to move the SDK forward and it certainly seems that Re Developers aren't short of requests. On that premise it would seem development capitol may only be provided from the more positive effects from the addition of VST and improvements to the existing platform. Again...only a theory. Personally I still use Reason because it is the DAW I enjoy most working in. The benefit of both Rack and VST is a pleasure but do seem to work against each other in a competitive market and does not favor the Re developer it would seem. It is a shame. Europa VST happened. I'll be more worried when we start to see Thor VST, OctoRex VST and Kong VST. This signals the great move. Shit hits the fan when Subtractor goes VST! :shock:
This is exactly what I've been thinking lately. They give devs who developed REs a way out with an auto-package-to VST. I originally thought they were really going after mobile and that they were planning on boosting RE sales that way (via a whole new market), but I don't think they are going to open it up and o third party devs - they have plenty of their own products to add first. I think they are going to sunset REs pretty soon and concentrate on VSTs with some kind of built-in DRM. Most VST Devs have abandoned the RE platform now anyway. I've pretty much stopped buying REs now and will not buy any more until it is clear they are a long-term investment. Would be interesting to know if the developer Ts&Cs would cover conversion to VST. I can't imagine Devs would complain at a potentially much wider market. And the one thing REs offered above VSTs - excellent performance - seems to have fallen by the wayside.

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Lizard
Posts: 464
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

26 Sep 2018

Undistraction wrote:
26 Sep 2018
I think they are going to sunset REs pretty soon and concentrate on VSTs with some kind of built-in DRM. Most VST Devs have abandoned the RE platform now anyway. I've pretty much stopped buying REs now and will not buy any more until it is clear they are a long-term investment.
I would firstly recommend that no one refuse to buy Re's. Development on the SDK may stall or god forbid cease but I don't see the technology being removed from Reason. That would completely leave 100+ developers dead in the water (including Propellerhead) with no way to sell a product they assured would be around for a long time. That IMO would be a suicide move from Propellerhead. I think you have no worries there. As reason users we should consider the developers who deserve rewards for their hard work. They certainly don't do it to get rich. No one suggests that a person have to buy an Re product if it does not appeal to the user but there are many great product already created that are just as valuable as any VST and well worth the look. I do feel refusing to invest in Re would not be necessary and hurts the Re developer WAY MORE than that to Propellerhead. I would hope you and others would agree.

Developers are people like you and me.... only give a shit more. ;) I will continue to support them and hope others do to.

Undistraction

26 Sep 2018

I absolutely don't advise anyone not to buy REs to punish propellerhead for exactly the reason I outlined above - that it will hurt the developers. The fact that I have stopped buying REs is down to the fact I don't see them as a sensible investment when i cannot sell them and I cannot use them with another DAW. If I had faith in Propellerhead I might feel differently, but I have lost faith in them. I cannot see any method behind their decisions other than to milk money from REs at the expense of developers and users.

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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

26 Sep 2018

Heres a video I did when REs were released, it was to prove that you can get any message by putting subtitles to speech played backwards... OR WAS IT?


Undistraction

26 Sep 2018

Anyone interested in some historical context to how little Propeller head have supported developers and how small the RE market is might want to read this thread from Sonic Charge's forums: https://soniccharge.com/forum/topic/457 ... -extension

A brilliant developer who gave up on REs due to technical limitations and a tiny market. And this is from four years back.

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rcbuse
RE Developer
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Location: SR388
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26 Sep 2018

I know there is a lot of doom and gloom in this thread but I'm not seeing it. I know I make weirder things than some of the other devs, perhaps thats why. The introduction to VST and subscriptions didn't disrupt much here.
Screen Shot 2018-09-26 at 2.22.10 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-09-26 at 2.22.10 PM.png (63.49 KiB) Viewed 970 times

Undistraction

26 Sep 2018

I'm really glad you're doing OK and I think that is in no small part because your REs are both excellent and unique, and because you have a large range of products.

I'd be interested to know why you think so few developers from outside the eco-system have continued producing REs. It seems that they almost all dipped their toes in, then exited RE development pretty quickly.

I'd also be interested to know what you think Propellerhead's current strategy is, because it makes no sense to me.

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Zac
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26 Sep 2018

Undistraction wrote:
26 Sep 2018
I'm really glad you're doing OK and I think that is in no small part because your REs are both excellent and unique, and because you have a large range of products.

I'd be interested to know why you think so few developers from outside the eco-system have continued producing REs. It seems that they almost all dipped their toes in, then exited RE development pretty quickly.

I'd also be interested to know what you think Propellerhead's current strategy is, because it makes no sense to me.
Just to balance things up maybe you should mention that some devs continue to release REs alongside VSTs... Rob Papen, Synapse Audio...

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rcbuse
RE Developer
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26 Sep 2018

Undistraction wrote:
26 Sep 2018
I'd be interested to know why you think so few developers from outside the eco-system have continued producing REs. It seems that they almost all dipped their toes in, then exited RE development pretty quickly.
Most devs have a framework and build system that lets them target all the popular plugins, VST, AU, iOS, etc... I think most of those formats are pretty similar.
REs have a much tighter coupling to Reason and different requirements. For a product that is already built, a port requires you to rewrite the UI which can be a huge pain. So I'm sure they dipped their toes in and decided the initial payoff wasn't worth the effort when they are already established in the other space. I'm hoping that new devs like noise engineering find the space to be different and more profitable now.
Undistraction wrote:
26 Sep 2018
I'd also be interested to know what you think Propellerhead's current strategy is, because it makes no sense to me.
I'm not privy to any business decisions more than anyone else. But my guess as a user would be: Onboard as many new users as possible (Intro Version, new Tutorial Section). Show them how awesome reason is. Get them to upgrade or buy rack extensions. Grow the space, more funding = more features.

Explore REs as VSTs or iOS apps. Perhaps put REs in Reason Mobile? I would appear they have the tech to build REs as VSTs, not surprising, I have a rough Re-in-VST working for Nostromo. I would hope that gets opened up to the devs as well!

I'm not afraid of where they are going to take things.

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QVprod
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26 Sep 2018

Agreed that developer experiences will likely differ. The question is whether or not people want the product. Of course VST support would affect sales of fx and synth RE more than for CV related RE. Also depends on how unique the RE is since they now compete more directly with VST. It's always been a competition between the two though, however people are no longer purchasing RE because it's an alternative to a VST they wished worked with Reason. The other complexity is going by the community here, Reason users in general seem to have this collective idea that no RE should be over $30, even when a RE is priced competitively with VST products of similar quality/functionality. Other times some developers have priced their RE ports above what one would pay for the VST option. Others, to call it what it is, exploited Reason users who were ignorant to VSTs back when Reason didn't support them so there's no longer any products they could develop. I'm not blasting Audio Damage but as an example, who's buying the Rough Rider RE when the plugin version is free?

That aside, I do believe that Propellerhead released the Rack Extension long before it was really ready which caused all the "sdk limitations" responses from all the bigger developers early on and probably permanently turned off most to the platform as a result, but I don't think It's dead. However now it's even more important that products are unique and of great quality, which doesn't guarantee sales, but at the same time prevents more ReStereos from being created.

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