Europa PolyCV

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Rason
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11 Sep 2018

Seems like Europa wouldnt accept translated poly gate/note from Blamsoft'S Breakout box. Has anyone tried?

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Loque
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11 Sep 2018

I would be honestly surprised if a PH device would support this...
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Rason
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11 Sep 2018

Loque wrote:I would be honestly surprised if a PH device would support this...
Ok thanks. I initially thought the breakout box was able to translate the signal to 'regular' cv acceptable by all devices.

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Ahornberg
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11 Sep 2018

Isn't there a free player to convert CV to MIDI?
PolyCV can be concerted to CV using the free Polymodular CV Breakout Box.

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Loque
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11 Sep 2018

[rackextension][/rackextension]
Ahornberg wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Isn't there a free player to convert CV to MIDI?
PolyCV can be concerted to CV using the free Polymodular CV Breakout Box.
Yes, there are several converter/splitter/merger and with CVPT and similar you can connect every device.
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selig
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11 Sep 2018

ljekio wrote:
11 Sep 2018
I think MIDI-CV Converter can works with PolyCV
https://shop.propellerheads.se/rack-ext ... converter/
I bought it at last sale.
Yes it definitely works with PolyCV, and that's what makes it so valuable to me. Without PolyCV I have few uses for conversion. Basically it opens up the Rack to MIDI, allowing you to pass/route MIDI around from device to device for the first time in the Rack - an extremely simple yet powerful device!

Even if a device cannot receive PolyCV, you simply use two M-CCs to stack instruments without needing a combinator. Hook it up both directions, and now either instrument also plays the other. Stack up to 8 instruments this way, and you can use a CV-Spider on the PolyCV signal too for even bigger stacks. Add a NoteView (shameless plug) to stack octaves, fifths, etc.

There's lots of LEDs on the front for visual feedback, and you can mute individual channels to check routing or use automation or a Combinator to mute/unmute different channels at different times (or randomly).

It's useful any time you want to split a MIDI signal and send it to more than one place (especially if one of those places wants to see CV).

And of course it's great for doing what the CV Spider could never do: merge multiple Matrix devices into one polyphonic signal! Another trick is to send 3-4 duplicate Matrixes to the same synth (stacking voices) and then use a random non-synced and non-global LFO to adjust pitch and panning - you get 3-4 voices all detuned and panned differently as the sequence plays, an effect impossible to do with a single device before C-CM.
[just started a new song while writing this, after testing this setup to make sure it worked as advertised!]

Sorry for such gushing, it's just this device doesn't seem to get much love, and it's really a powerful new addition to the Reason rack IMO.
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Auryn
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11 Sep 2018

Rason wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Loque wrote:I would be honestly surprised if a PH device would support this...
Ok thanks. I initially thought the breakout box was able to translate the signal to 'regular' cv acceptable by all devices.

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It isn't quite as simple as that: polycv is a protocol that allows multiple voices (gate+note pairs) to be sent through a single CV cable, normally only a single (monophonic) voice can be sent. It was designed primarily to drive Blamsoft's polymodular system. A non-polycv device like Europa doesn't accept a polycv signal, although with player devices (that don't use the traditional cv cables at all) being added the reasons/benefits for using it (such as sequencing multiple note lanes) are fewer. (see selig's comment) I do wish props would have used the polycv protocol for the player devices as the internal logic of the rack paradigm would have been preserved/kept consistent
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Blamsoft
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11 Sep 2018

MIDI-CV Converter by LoveOne should be able to connect a synth to PolyCV as described by Selig and others. I think it's a great idea. If it were lacking I would consider making a similar device. Gustav had a great idea so I haven't felt the need to compete with it.

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Auryn
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11 Sep 2018

Blamsoft wrote:
11 Sep 2018
MIDI-CV Converter by LoveOne should be able to connect a synth to PolyCV as described by Selig and others. I think it's a great idea. If it were lacking I would consider making a similar device. Gustav had a great idea so I haven't felt the need to compete with it.
Hmmm, yeah maybe my comment was needlessly confusing... I haven't looked into this MIDI-CV converter device yet but if it does what you and Selig say it sounds great.
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antic604

12 Sep 2018

Ok, hijacking the thread - please explain to me like I'm 5 what's the functional difference between:

MIDI-CV Converter: https://shop.propellerheads.se/rack-ext ... converter/

and

CV Player Tap: https://shop.propellerheads.se/rack-ext ... layer-tap/

On an example of what each can do, that the other cannot?

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ljekio
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12 Sep 2018

CVPT:
1. Haven't PolyCV
2. CV outs works as another RE MIDI-CV converters: when you use polyphonic then first voice send come to 1 CV/Gate, second voice to 2, etc. MIDI-CV converter works otherwise: One signal to one channel.
For example, if you use drums, you will want to get a CV with the same note values as the input. But CVPT will not let you do it because of splitting polyphony into each separate socket.

In simple words, you can use MIDI-CV converter as a MIDI send to any device, regardless of the number of used voices.

antic604

12 Sep 2018

ljekio wrote:
12 Sep 2018
In simple words, you can use MIDI-CV converter as a MIDI send to any device, regardless of the number of used voices.
Thanks! So rephrasing it, for monophonic material it's the same thing, but for polyphonic CVPT might not be what I want?

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buddard
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12 Sep 2018

antic604 wrote:
12 Sep 2018
ljekio wrote:
12 Sep 2018
In simple words, you can use MIDI-CV converter as a MIDI send to any device, regardless of the number of used voices.
Thanks! So rephrasing it, for monophonic material it's the same thing, but for polyphonic CVPT might not be what I want?
CVPT also handles polyphony, but requires more wiring since you have to route a CV/gate pair for every voice of polyphony that you need, and the max number of voices is 16.

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Loque
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12 Sep 2018

antic604 wrote:
12 Sep 2018
ljekio wrote:
12 Sep 2018
In simple words, you can use MIDI-CV converter as a MIDI send to any device, regardless of the number of used voices.
Thanks! So rephrasing it, for monophonic material it's the same thing, but for polyphonic CVPT might not be what I want?
There seem to be a problem with the note sorting with Reason. That means, if you want the note-00 always go to the same synth, it might not work. Not sure, if this working on other devices. AFAIK, it is a note sorting problem in Reason itself - but i may be wrong here.
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selig
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12 Sep 2018

antic604 wrote:
ljekio wrote:
12 Sep 2018
In simple words, you can use MIDI-CV converter as a MIDI send to any device, regardless of the number of used voices.
Thanks! So rephrasing it, for monophonic material it's the same thing, but for polyphonic CVPT might not be what I want?
I don’t know how CVPT works with mono signals, since I’ve used M-CC since before CVPT was introduced. But

I’m not sure how CVPT works as a merger/splitter as M-CC does. Seems CVPT works more like Distributer does with all signals? Or is it possible to split/merge signals too?

M-CC also has good visual feedback on the front panel, and I’m not sure if CVPT does that as well.

So if I’m not mistaken, the only thing CVPT does that M-CC does not is the distributer function? Or is there more?


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Loque
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12 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
12 Sep 2018
I’m not sure how CVPT works as a merger/splitter as M-CC does. Seems CVPT works more like Distributer does with all signals? Or is it possible to split/merge signals too?
Yes, you can see it as a "Distributor" and yea, and you can use it to split or merge a MIDI or CV signal. It accepts as many Note/Gate signals as inputs are available, that means 16. Same for output. If you play a chord with four notes, you receive for signals with gate/note at the outputs. And you can create a chord in the opposite way, by providing 4 gates and notes into the inputs.

This thing becomes handy, if you have Poly-CV devices, where you can also split/merge with other RE. But the main problem imo is, you do not have control over the note order due a bug (?) in Reason with note ordering. If this would work, you can send the lowest notes in a 4-chord to bass-devices, and the upper notes to maybe key-devices.
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selig
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12 Sep 2018

Loque wrote:
selig wrote:
12 Sep 2018
I’m not sure how CVPT works as a merger/splitter as M-CC does. Seems CVPT works more like Distributer does with all signals? Or is it possible to split/merge signals too?
Yes, you can see it as a "Distributor" and yea, and you can use it to split or merge a MIDI or CV signal. It accepts as many Note/Gate signals as inputs are available, that means 16. Same for output. If you play a chord with four notes, you receive for signals with gate/note at the outputs. And you can create a chord in the opposite way, by providing 4 gates and notes into the inputs.

This thing becomes handy, if you have Poly-CV devices, where you can also split/merge with other RE. But the main problem imo is, you do not have control over the note order due a bug (?) in Reason with note ordering. If this would work, you can send the lowest notes in a 4-chord to bass-devices, and the upper notes to maybe key-devices.
You’ve not described a splitter - a splitter send the SAME signal to multiple outputs. What you’re describing is a “distributer”, which is why I asked if it could do anything OTHER than distributer functions.

As for being a merger, it can only accept MONOPHONIC inputs, so it’s not totally a merger either (it’s a merger for monophonic CV signals, not polyphonic).

The beauty of the M-CC is it can do both splitting and merging, like a spider but for Poly CV. PLUS it’s also a converter, converting MIDI to CV, or CV to MIDI. You have to use TWO of them to get the full bi-directional functionality, but it’s there and it’s different from what the CVPT does - and more generally useful IMO because more of the time I’m wanting to deal with poly signals as poly signals rather than splitting them out “per voice” as CV signals.

Again, the beauty of M-CC to me is it can work with mono and polyphonic CV, and do everything (and more) the CVPT can do EXCEPT distributing voices per CV - again, I THINK that’s correct, but want to be sure!

One last question, because I’m feeling a little dense/slow today! You say “This thing becomes handy, if you have Poly-CV devices” yet as far as I can see it can neither send more receive PolyCV signals. How then is it handy for working with PolyCV devices?


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Loque
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12 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
12 Sep 2018
Loque wrote:
Yes, you can see it as a "Distributor" and yea, and you can use it to split or merge a MIDI or CV signal. It accepts as many Note/Gate signals as inputs are available, that means 16. Same for output. If you play a chord with four notes, you receive for signals with gate/note at the outputs. And you can create a chord in the opposite way, by providing 4 gates and notes into the inputs.

This thing becomes handy, if you have Poly-CV devices, where you can also split/merge with other RE. But the main problem imo is, you do not have control over the note order due a bug (?) in Reason with note ordering. If this would work, you can send the lowest notes in a 4-chord to bass-devices, and the upper notes to maybe key-devices.
You’ve not described a splitter - a splitter send the SAME signal to multiple outputs. What you’re describing is a “distributer”, which is why I asked if it could do anything OTHER than distributer functions.

As for being a merger, it can only accept MONOPHONIC inputs, so it’s not totally a merger either (it’s a merger for monophonic CV signals, not polyphonic).

The beauty of the M-CC is it can do both splitting and merging, like a spider but for Poly CV. PLUS it’s also a converter, converting MIDI to CV, or CV to MIDI. You have to use TWO of them to get the full bi-directional functionality, but it’s there and it’s different from what the CVPT does - and more generally useful IMO because more of the time I’m wanting to deal with poly signals as poly signals rather than splitting them out “per voice” as CV signals.

Again, the beauty of M-CC to me is it can work with mono and polyphonic CV, and do everything (and more) the CVPT can do EXCEPT distributing voices per CV - again, I THINK that’s correct, but want to be sure!

One last question, because I’m feeling a little dense/slow today! You say “This thing becomes handy, if you have Poly-CV devices” yet as far as I can see it can neither send more receive PolyCV signals. How then is it handy for working with PolyCV devices?


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Well, sometimes words are not enough to understand each other. I meant by splitting/merging signals, not the same signal. In your words, it is just a distributor and becomes a merger/splitter for PolyCV with additional devices (in my words), if you send out one "poly" signal, splits it into several mono signals with an other RE and use CVPT to "merge" them to a MIDI signal :-)

You are right, it cannot send/receive PolyCV. I used it a few times to send parts of a PolyCV or Chord signal to different devices, where the rest was send to other devices. I am not sure, this can be done with only the PolyCV merger/splitter since you need a device that accepts PolyCV. This thing works with every instrument. Can a 4 note chord be send to 2 devices by only using PolyCV merger/splitter? I guess not... Just think of PolyCV envelope generators, Synths, arps, sequences and mix this with midi notes/chords.
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selig
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12 Sep 2018

Loque wrote: You are right, it cannot send/receive PolyCV. I used it a few times to send parts of a PolyCV or Chord signal to different devices…
OK, it cannot send/receive PolyCV, I get that. But then you say you used it to send parts of a PolyCV to different devices - how so?

As for the terms Splitter/Merger, I’m sticking to the Reason definition of the terms to avoid confusion - which didn’t seem to work, which is par for the course. You are correct, sometimes words are not enough. Easier to have these sort of conversations face to face for sure!
:)


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Loque
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13 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
12 Sep 2018
...
Maybe since the Players it is not that neccessary anymore to send PolyCV signals around and the devices i own that generate PolyCV are barly touched since i have the Players (Autotheory and so on). So in the end, it can save a little bit of space and in terms of splitting it might help too, mainly with less cabling and less space. Here is an example, where i used one part to generate notes and send additional notes to other devices, sometimes through Players, sometimes through PolyCV. Just a quick patch for demonstration, so the sound it may produce is not that great :-)
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EpiGenetik
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13 Sep 2018

Rason wrote:
11 Sep 2018
Seems like Europa wouldnt accept translated poly gate/note from Blamsoft'S Breakout box. Has anyone tried?

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Just to confirm this. There may be an issue with your set-up or a bug with Breakout Box, or perhaps even this is not the intention of what Breakout Box is meant to do, I don't have it and can't comment on this.

BUT

Europa DOES accept PolyCV, and works exactly as expected without any issues when tested with AutoTheory.

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Auryn
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13 Sep 2018

EpiGenetik wrote:
13 Sep 2018
Just to confirm this. There may be an issue with your set-up or a bug with Breakout Box, or perhaps even this is not the intention of what Breakout Box is meant to do, I don't have it and can't comment on this.

BUT

Europa DOES accept PolyCV, and works exactly as expected without any issues when tested with AutoTheory.
Re: Europa PolyCV
Hmmm, IIRC a synth does not need to accept PolyCV to function as intended with Autotheory. It's been a long time so I may be mistaken, but IIRC Autotheory uses a different "trick" in order to send chords through CV cables (it offsets the notes slightly in time, while PolyCV uses negative note values to represent chords). The end result is the roughly same as PolyCV. So even though it functions properly with Autotheory I don't think Europa is programmed to accept PolyCV. It won't accept output straight from the breakout box, even though there is presumably a way to still make it work using some RE's (as explained above by Selig and others, I haven't looked into this at all so I can't explain further)
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EpiGenetik
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13 Sep 2018

Auryn wrote:
13 Sep 2018
EpiGenetik wrote:
13 Sep 2018
Just to confirm this. There may be an issue with your set-up or a bug with Breakout Box, or perhaps even this is not the intention of what Breakout Box is meant to do, I don't have it and can't comment on this.

BUT

Europa DOES accept PolyCV, and works exactly as expected without any issues when tested with AutoTheory.
Re: Europa PolyCV
Hmmm, IIRC a synth does not need to accept PolyCV to function as intended with Autotheory. It's been a long time so I may be mistaken, but IIRC Autotheory uses a different "trick" in order to send chords through CV cables (it offsets the notes slightly in time, while PolyCV uses negative note values to represent chords). The end result is the roughly same as PolyCV. So even though it functions properly with Autotheory I don't think Europa is programmed to accept PolyCV. It won't accept output straight from the breakout box, even though there is presumably a way to still make it work using some RE's (as explained above by Selig and others, I haven't looked into this at all so I can't explain further)
Interesting, I'll have to take your word for it on that.

In the meantime, I can also confirm that ChordSET works too, although this could be using the same trick that you suggest.

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EpiGenetik
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13 Sep 2018

EpiGenetik wrote:
13 Sep 2018
Auryn wrote:
13 Sep 2018


Hmmm, IIRC a synth does not need to accept PolyCV to function as intended with Autotheory. It's been a long time so I may be mistaken, but IIRC Autotheory uses a different "trick" in order to send chords through CV cables (it offsets the notes slightly in time, while PolyCV uses negative note values to represent chords). The end result is the roughly same as PolyCV. So even though it functions properly with Autotheory I don't think Europa is programmed to accept PolyCV. It won't accept output straight from the breakout box, even though there is presumably a way to still make it work using some RE's (as explained above by Selig and others, I haven't looked into this at all so I can't explain further)
Interesting, I'll have to take your word for it on that.

In the meantime, I can also confirm that ChordSET works too, although this could be using the same trick that you suggest.
Ok, ChordSET must use some trick similar to AutoTheory, or at least if it is using PolyCV it's not got the logo for it.

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