An update on copyright...

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Ostermilk
Posts: 1462
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 01 Jun 2018

FlowerSoldier wrote:
30 May 2018
Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018
Isn't e-instruments lab (see StringWerk RE product page) responsible for NI's Session Strings among other libraries?

That would make them rather than NI (as everyone seems to be currently aassuming) the copyright holder of the samples, no?

Is anyone in contact with them around here, being as they are RE/IDT devs too?

https://www.e-instruments.com/
You should be an attorney Ostermilk.
OBJECTION, your honour. :mrgreen:

kitekrazy
Posts: 667
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 01 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
29 May 2018
Ostermilk wrote:
No you are right it isn't the ecosystem, it's the e-commerce system.

But it does serve to highlight the fact that I've come to expect excellent service from Devs (an exemplar being yourself) via the Prop Shop and I guess I've perhaps wrongly thought that some demonstrable form of effective vetting occurs that distinguishes the Prop Shop from an online auction site.
I see the shop as more like the Apple App Store. But in this case, unless NI complains, the Props can’t really do anything that I can think of. And I’m not expecting Andrew to step up and respond positively (like by proving refunds to all that ask), or anything similar.

It’s a depressing situation all around IMO, and at present I would think the ball is in NI’s court if we’re going to see any action.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Usually a big company isn't going to waste resources making an example out of the small guy. I think the only thing NI would do is not allowed them to be sold again. Both parties did the right thing.


There was a popular guy on youtube using a cracked version of FL. Basically Image Line told him to buy a license and that would be the end of it. He did, posted an apology on youtube and all is well. Sure they could have taken him to court but the easiest way is to have stuff taken down or have them buy a license.

It did dawn on me the legit orchestra libraries often include information when and where it was recorded and how many players. If that information isn't listed then they are often fake.

kitekrazy
Posts: 667
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Post 01 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
30 May 2018
RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Innocent until proven guilty.

Softphonics clearly denied the allegations at the same time of closing down.
Propellerhead Software remained neutral.
Alleged product removal other than by Softphonics was denied, too.

Apparently Native Instruments' statement is missing now, approving or denying whether the alleged copyrighted contents' usage was rightful.

Should the allegations win, Andrew Skelton most likely can't be held responsible; and all probably wasn't his fault or intention.
I am curious why you are so dead set on defending an indefensible act. Copyright infringement on this scale is criminal. It does not matter if he denies the allegations or not. I have contacted NI about this as I bought one Refill and realized there were issues early on. I didn't have the libraries to compare it to but others have, hence the videos.

How could he not possibly be held responsible? Because he is 'autistic'? That does not absolve him of fault or intent. Propellerheads statement clearly shows that this is ongoing and it remains to be seen what happens next. Anyone who purchased the Refills and RE's should be very aware of this situation if they intend to use them. I certainly would not.
I will use them. I don't think there will be issue unless I rebrand and sell those refills. We are talking refills, a proprietary format that doesn't have millions of dollars in sales.

kitekrazy
Posts: 667
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Post 01 Jun 2018

Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018
RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Innocent until proven guilty.
I don't think people are seeking to apportion blame, I know I'm certainly not.

I'm mostly interested in what happens in these circumstance when people have purchased stuff from the shop they can no longer use through no fault of their own.

For me I lost the price of a nice Fish and Chip supper with the Mrs, i.e. I'm not that bothered (but she's furious...:),
I've never bought a refill from the shop other than those $29 bundles. NNXT doesn't have any authorization scheme. I've always bought from 3rd party vendors.

kitekrazy
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Post 01 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
30 May 2018
Technically Andrew said „I recorded them“, right? It could also mean recording NI instruments.. As said I am also 99% sure this is a scam but I‘d also say that theres no one at least in this thread who could say anything definitive about this apart from the fact that these are NI samples. And definitely not what should or should not be done to Andrew.
Considering the price I would say no. Studio time and paying the musician doesn't = a $49 refill. When East West released their Hollywood series they were over a $1000. 10 years later they can sell them for half since they recovered their costs.

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QVprod
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Post 02 Jun 2018

kitekrazy wrote:
01 Jun 2018


Usually a big company isn't going to waste resources making an example out of the small guy. I think the only thing NI would do is not allowed them to be sold again. Both parties did the right thing.


There was a popular guy on youtube using a cracked version of FL. Basically Image Line told him to buy a license and that would be the end of it. He did, posted an apology on youtube and all is well. Sure they could have taken him to court but the easiest way is to have stuff taken down or have them buy a license.

It did dawn on me the legit orchestra libraries often include information when and where it was recorded and how many players. If that information isn't listed then they are often fake.
The difference in these cases is that Curtiss King (he made all this public himself so I don't mind saying his name) didn't repackage Image line's product ant resell it. The only thing he actually owed them was the money for a license. Nonetheless, had he not complied they would've pursued further legal action. Eliminating is Youtube channel alone would have been majorly detrimental. They even found his actual name (which isn't Curtiss King)and email to contact him. It was also in their better interest to be amicable with him as his youtube content gives them considerable free promotion.

I this case, the NI/E Instrument's product was ripped off and resold as a different product. The only thing that stops legal action here the fact that the products were already taken down and that legal fees would probably not be recouped in a lawsuit. This pretty much makes Andrew untouchable as far as this case goes.

sleep1979
Posts: 103
Joined: 20 Jul 2017

Post 02 Jun 2018

RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
I neutrally stated facts.

Let's not forget if allegations turn out to be wrong, then mass defamation happened, which can result things to turn criminal for the accusers in as much as a flip of a coin.

Once Native Instruments makes a statement, we'll see the outcome.

From the looks of it, all that can be done for Andrew, is lighting a candle and pray.
Shut up please i have an autistic nephew with the most extreme form . Its disgusting to use this as an excuse . The man has run . As soon as someone accused him . What more proof do u need ? I dont know why some people choose to look at the world through rose tinted glasses .

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normen
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Post 02 Jun 2018

kitekrazy wrote:
01 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
30 May 2018
Technically Andrew said „I recorded them“, right? It could also mean recording NI instruments.. As said I am also 99% sure this is a scam but I‘d also say that theres no one at least in this thread who could say anything definitive about this apart from the fact that these are NI samples. And definitely not what should or should not be done to Andrew.
Considering the price I would say no. Studio time and paying the musician doesn't = a $49 refill. When East West released their Hollywood series they were over a $1000. 10 years later they can sell them for half since they recovered their costs.
Hm.. Either you misunderstood me or I am misunderstanding you but I can‘t connect these statements :)

RobC
Posts: 929
Joined: 10 Mar 2018

Post 02 Jun 2018

sleep1979 wrote:
02 Jun 2018
RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
I neutrally stated facts.

Let's not forget if allegations turn out to be wrong, then mass defamation happened, which can result things to turn criminal for the accusers in as much as a flip of a coin.

Once Native Instruments makes a statement, we'll see the outcome.

From the looks of it, all that can be done for Andrew, is lighting a candle and pray.
Shut up please i have an autistic nephew with the most extreme form . Its disgusting to use this as an excuse . The man has run . As soon as someone accused him . What more proof do u need ? I dont know why some people choose to look at the world through rose tinted glasses .
Pudding! I need pudding! The proof is in the pudding!

Image

Tails' found pudding! xD

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splangie
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Location: Park County, Colorado

Post 02 Jun 2018

I sent NI a note the other day asking about Softphonics and the samples. Here is the response.

Dear splangie,

We appreciate your message!

Thank you very much for pointing out what you think might be illegitimate distribution of our products. We are looking into your report closely, and will take all necessary steps to address the issue.

Software piracy and fraudulent sales practices affect both the developers and the users of music software in a negative way. By helping us to stay on top of these issues, you support the prolific development of innovative and inspirational music technology - products that are specifically designed for the demanding musician, DJ and producer in you.

For more information on the piracy cause from our viewpoint, as well as a link to a list of authorised dealers, feel free to visit our Anti-Piracy page: https://www.native-instruments.com/en/c ... ti-piracy/.

Regarding your inquiry please allow us some time to get back to you.

Thank you again in the name of the whole Native Instruments team - if you have any questions please do not hesitate to contact us!

With best regards from Berlin,
Jelena
Legal Assistant
Reason 12.7.1xx73391 beta

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DJBuddhaBear
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Location: Arizona

Post 02 Jun 2018

I sent an inquiry as well to NI and got the same reply.

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normen
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Post 03 Jun 2018

Snitches of the ReasonTalk forum unite.... :roll: What exactly is the advantage for you when Andrew gets hit harder? Ah, it's just gratifying to watch, I get it.

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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 03 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
03 Jun 2018
Snitches of the ReasonTalk forum unite.... :roll: What exactly is the advantage for you when Andrew gets hit harder? Ah, it's just gratifying to watch, I get it.
I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the support this guy is getting when he intentionally deceived others, stole another's IP, and made money off of it criminally.

Yeah, I have zero concern for him but rather for the original sample owners and those users who purchased these. One here already said he would continue using them. Yeah, I don't use ripped off samples. :roll:

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normen
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Post 03 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
03 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
03 Jun 2018
Snitches of the ReasonTalk forum unite.... :roll: What exactly is the advantage for you when Andrew gets hit harder? Ah, it's just gratifying to watch, I get it.
I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the support this guy is getting when he intentionally deceived others, stole another's IP, and made money off of it criminally.

Yeah, I have zero concern for him but rather for the original sample owners and those users who purchased these. One here already said he would continue using them. Yeah, I don't use ripped off samples. :roll:
See, for me it‘s not about Andrew. I find it distasteful in any instance so I say that. You didn‘t answer my question though.

MrFigg
Posts: 769
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 03 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
03 Jun 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
03 Jun 2018


I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the support this guy is getting when he intentionally deceived others, stole another's IP, and made money off of it criminally.

Yeah, I have zero concern for him but rather for the original sample owners and those users who purchased these. One here already said he would continue using them. Yeah, I don't use ripped off samples. :roll:
See, for me it‘s not about Andrew. I find it distasteful in any instance so I say that. You didn‘t answer my question though.
Been following this thread a while now. What I think Normen is trying to get across (and please correct me if I’ve got it wrong) is that whatever opinion one may have about what has transpired it is not our place, be it as observers or victims, to see to it that he is hung. That’s why civilized society has laws.

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DJBuddhaBear
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Location: Arizona

Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
03 Jun 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
03 Jun 2018


I am really having a hard time wrapping my head around the support this guy is getting when he intentionally deceived others, stole another's IP, and made money off of it criminally.

Yeah, I have zero concern for him but rather for the original sample owners and those users who purchased these. One here already said he would continue using them. Yeah, I don't use ripped off samples. :roll:
See, for me it‘s not about Andrew. I find it distasteful in any instance so I say that. You didn‘t answer my question though.

In what ways has Andrew been penalized for his fraudulent actions? He stole IP. He sold IP that wasn't his. He collected money that should not have been given to him. Once others became aware of what he was doing and tried to warn others, he shut down his site, pulled his stolen products from the Prop Shop, and is using his autism as an excuse to evade any personal responsibility.

So I really have a hard time yet again seeing how this man has 'suffered' for any of his actions thus far. We do live in a society of laws and obligations. For him to escape any punishment that is legally due for his fraudulent and criminal actions is not just nor does it dissuade others from taking similar actions in the future.

You do realize he is not the 'victim' here, right?

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Marco Raaphorst
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Joined: 22 Jan 2015

Post 04 Jun 2018

This was all purely based on speculations which has gotten out of hand.

Lukas of the Props is writing this: "It has never happened that any content owner has claimed copyright violation on the content of the product, and we don’t have any such ongoing situation now either."

So Softphonics were not accused by Propellerhead or any other company for stealing samples. There is no such case. The Props haven't done anything. It's 100% up to Softphonics who have decided to pull the plug.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

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normen
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Post 04 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
03 Jun 2018


See, for me it‘s not about Andrew. I find it distasteful in any instance so I say that. You didn‘t answer my question though.

In what ways has Andrew been penalized for his fraudulent actions? He stole IP. He sold IP that wasn't his. He collected money that should not have been given to him. Once others became aware of what he was doing and tried to warn others, he shut down his site, pulled his stolen products from the Prop Shop, and is using his autism as an excuse to evade any personal responsibility.

So I really have a hard time yet again seeing how this man has 'suffered' for any of his actions thus far. We do live in a society of laws and obligations. For him to escape any punishment that is legally due for his fraudulent and criminal actions is not just nor does it dissuade others from taking similar actions in the future.

You do realize he is not the 'victim' here, right?
You still didn‘t say what your advantage is when snitching him? „I can‘t be 100% sure he gets punished so I do everything I can to make it sure“?

And nobody said „he suffered enough“, don‘t know why you play like that. What I said is that none of us are able to say what is enough or not here.

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DJBuddhaBear
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Location: Arizona

Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018



In what ways has Andrew been penalized for his fraudulent actions? He stole IP. He sold IP that wasn't his. He collected money that should not have been given to him. Once others became aware of what he was doing and tried to warn others, he shut down his site, pulled his stolen products from the Prop Shop, and is using his autism as an excuse to evade any personal responsibility.

So I really have a hard time yet again seeing how this man has 'suffered' for any of his actions thus far. We do live in a society of laws and obligations. For him to escape any punishment that is legally due for his fraudulent and criminal actions is not just nor does it dissuade others from taking similar actions in the future.

You do realize he is not the 'victim' here, right?
You still didn‘t say what your advantage is when snitching him? „I can‘t be 100% sure he gets punished so I do everything I can to make it sure“?

And nobody said „he suffered enough“, don‘t know why you play like that. What I said is that none of us are able to say what is enough or not here.
"Snitch"? Really? :roll: You act like somehow I and others owe him something. We don't. He sold copyrighted IP as his own. I bought one. I reported it to NI after this news broke. My advantage beyond that? I am a professional, and I take the laws seriously around copyright. As a 'professional engineer' and 'programmer' I would hope you do as well. Bluntly, given your weird defenses and communications around this, you are not someone I would choose to interact with professionally.

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Marco Raaphorst
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Post 04 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018


You still didn‘t say what your advantage is when snitching him? „I can‘t be 100% sure he gets punished so I do everything I can to make it sure“?

And nobody said „he suffered enough“, don‘t know why you play like that. What I said is that none of us are able to say what is enough or not here.
"Snitch"? Really? :roll: You act like somehow I and others owe him something. We don't. He sold copyrighted IP as his own. I bought one. I reported it to NI after this news broke. My advantage beyond that? I am a professional, and I take the laws seriously around copyright. As a 'professional engineer' and 'programmer' I would hope you do as well. Bluntly, given your weird defenses and communications around this, you are not someone I would choose to interact with professionally.


The Props have never claimed there was a copyright case.
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

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normen
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Post 04 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018


You still didn‘t say what your advantage is when snitching him? „I can‘t be 100% sure he gets punished so I do everything I can to make it sure“?

And nobody said „he suffered enough“, don‘t know why you play like that. What I said is that none of us are able to say what is enough or not here.
"Snitch"? Really? :roll: You act like somehow I and others owe him something. We don't. He sold copyrighted IP as his own. I bought one. I reported it to NI after this news broke. My advantage beyond that? I am a professional, and I take the laws seriously around copyright. As a 'professional engineer' and 'programmer' I would hope you do as well. Bluntly, given your weird defenses and communications around this, you are not someone I would choose to interact with professionally.
Well, I find it weird that a) you keep coming back to this and b) you really don‘t seem to have an issue with random citizens getting into a chorus of „Hang him! It‘s obvious he‘s guilty!“. So yeah, same here :)

Your answer to the question is terribly weak, you‘re aware of that? So your personal advantage is that you feel better about yourself for being a good citizen this way? Thats even weirder! :) Thats a thing I’d normally only ascribe to that dog lady. Like calling the police on the neighbors before asking them whats up.

djadalaide
Posts: 127
Joined: 11 May 2018

Post 04 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
02 Jun 2018
I sent an inquiry as well to NI and got the same reply.
I'm guessing its an autoresponder.

There isn't any point in pursuing this, best to just let it go and move on.

Back in 1999 someone from Canada copied my music and other artists on mp3.com, uploaded them under their own account and made money from our music.

He said that he did it with the best of intentions as he liked the music.

From experience, its best to just let these things go.

I did buy all of Andrews refills, and he did say some things in private about how stupid reason users are, but best to just leave it there and move on!

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avasopht
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Post 04 Jun 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
04 Jun 2018
The Props have never claimed there was a copyright case.
Nobody is suggesting the Props have claimed a copyright case.

What people are saying is that he undoubtedly has used samples from NI products that were recorded by e-instruments, claiming they were his own. Many people are also for good reason, highly doubtful he has acquired a license for those samples.

e-instruments is not going to randomly dish out licenses to sell their prime patches to just about anyone (especially when they already have products in that same store). Not to say a license would never be given out to another company, but definitely not some random individual with no history. Given the circumstantial evidence, this is definitely a valid case for skepticism on the legality of this operation.
---

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avasopht
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Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Your answer to the question is terribly weak, you‘re aware of that? So your personal advantage is that you feel better about yourself for being a good citizen this way? Thats even weirder! :) Thats a thing I’d normally only ascribe to that dog lady. Like calling the police on the neighbors before asking them whats up.
Well Softphonics suspiciously disappeared the moment the source was revealed and has chosen not to comment on the legality of the samples he most likely did not acquire.

This is a good case for skepticism on the legitimacy of his case.
---

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normen
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Post 04 Jun 2018

avasopht wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Well Softphonics suspiciously disappeared the moment the source was revealed and has chosen not to comment on the legality of the samples he most likely did not acquire.

This is a good case for skepticism on the legitimacy of his case.
Guys, is it so hard to understand that I am neither black nor white? I said that I am 99% sure that you are right but that at the same time you are in no place to demand anything or claim any deeper truths here. I mean that thrown-in rumor/accusation in the previous post is just disgusting don't you think? Repeatedly stating that it's almost 100% sure that he's guilty is just a bit better.
djadalaide wrote:
04 Jun 2018
he did say some things in private about how stupid reason users are, but best to just leave it there and move on!

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