An update on copyright...

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Ostermilk
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Post 30 May 2018

MrFigg wrote:
30 May 2018
Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018


I don't think people are seeking to apportion blame, I know I'm certainly not.

I'm mostly interested in what happens in these circumstance when people have purchased stuff from the shop they can no longer use through no fault of their own.

For me I lost the price of a nice Fish and Chip supper with the Mrs, i.e. I'm not that bothered (but she's furious...:),
Always go with the fish supper man. Always. I’m stuck here in Sweden without and I’d trade you half my REs for one right now. If only Props would let me :):):).
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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 30 May 2018

normen wrote:
30 May 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
30 May 2018
I am curious why you are so dead set on defending an indefensible act.
He's defending due process.
No, he is not.
Should the allegations win, Andrew Skelton most likely can't be held responsible; and all probably wasn't his fault or intention.


That is a statement that if the allegations are true, he can't be held responsible nor should he because it wasn't his fault or intention. He is drawing a conclusion of innocence when the facts currently in evidence show that he intentionally and maliciously sold NI's copyright material which he passed off as his own work.

RobC
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Post 30 May 2018

Ahh, and this is why I left the forum a few days ago.

One anxiety attack was enough.

I'll wait for Native Instruments' statement, thank you very much! :post:

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selig
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Post 30 May 2018

RobC wrote:Ahh, and this is why I left the forum a few days ago.

One anxiety attack was enough.

I'll wait for Native Instruments' statement, thank you very much! :post:
Can you answer my question about softphonic’s assertion of innocence you mentioned earlier?

No one is attacking you btw.


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RobC
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Post 30 May 2018

Wasn't the #1 reason on the website clear enough? If it sounds blurry, I think we can put the picture together. I didn't see any acknowledging of crime either if it's not enough.

You threw the ball in the air. Great. Sofphonics made their statement, Propellerhead made their statement, now we're waiting for what Native Instruments has to say.

Dare I say something neutral, it results in - well, not physical attacks, but the passive-aggressive cornering has its effects. Thus I no longer wish to say anything else on this topic until NI says something.

Now, I understand though that such thing like 'unpopular opinion' exists, so I apologize for that, I guess and leave in shame now.

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selig
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Post 30 May 2018

RobC wrote:Wasn't the #1 reason on the website clear enough? If it sounds blurry, I think we can put the picture together. I didn't see any acknowledging of crime either if it's not enough.

You threw the ball in the air. Great. Sofphonics made their statement, Propellerhead made their statement, now we're waiting for what Native Instruments has to say.

Dare I say something neutral, it results in - well, not physical attacks, but the passive-aggressive cornering has its effects. Thus I no longer wish to say anything else on this topic until NI says something.

Now, I understand though that such thing like 'unpopular opinion' exists, so I apologize for that, I guess and leave in shame now.
You avoided my question again. Please stick to facts. You don’t want speculation from others and the same holds for you.

No one else saw them “clearly denying “ anything as far as I’ve read.

Please edit your post or provide proof for your assertions. Everyone is held to the same standards here.


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avasopht
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Post 30 May 2018

RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Ahh, and this is why I left the forum a few days ago.

One anxiety attack was enough.

I'll wait for Native Instruments' statement, thank you very much! :post:
In all honesty I can't imagine NI really making any statement. If they're going to take him to court, they'll just take him to court. They do have an anti-piracy page, but I have no idea how proactive they are.

Unless a notable magazine decides to cover this story there is very little reason or motive for them to release any public statement. Maybe they will respond to enquiries at Image
---

Ostermilk
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Post 30 May 2018

avasopht wrote:
30 May 2018
RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Ahh, and this is why I left the forum a few days ago.

One anxiety attack was enough.

I'll wait for Native Instruments' statement, thank you very much! :post:
In all honesty I can't imagine NI really making any statement. If they're going to take him to court, they'll just take him to court. They do have an anti-piracy page, but I have no idea how proactive they are.

Unless a notable magazine decides to cover this story there is very little reason or motive for them to release any public statement. Maybe they will respond to enquiries at Image
^^^THIS^^^

I've been saying from the outset, if you are out of pocket it looks like you've got 3 choices just now, ditch your affected product(s), keep them for private use or enquire with the copyright owner as to whether you'd be OK using them in any released productions of your own.

I didn't think to post the links tho...
Last edited by Ostermilk on 30 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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Post 30 May 2018

avasopht wrote:
30 May 2018
RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Ahh, and this is why I left the forum a few days ago.

One anxiety attack was enough.

I'll wait for Native Instruments' statement, thank you very much! :post:
In all honesty I can't imagine NI really making any statement. If they're going to take him to court, they'll just take him to court. They do have an anti-piracy page, but I have no idea how proactive they are.

Unless a notable magazine decides to cover this story there is very little reason or motive for them to release any public statement. Maybe they will respond to enquiries at Image
Long shot, but could be they make a statement explaining the situation to all current users of Softphonics products, so we can know where we stand as far as using the products on a production. Though I'd assume many of us would rather dump them in the trash rather than use them, which is easy for me to say because I also have the NI products, so I'm not left hanging with nuttin.
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challism
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Post 30 May 2018

eusti wrote:
29 May 2018
Exowildebeest wrote:
29 May 2018
That's how things work. It's up to Softphonics to go into hiding/hope that claims don't come. If they haven't already, although I assume Props would have been informed as well. Looks like he pulled everything to prevent future damage.
Seems all but one of their products are gone from the shop as of now.


Screen Shot 2018-05-29 at 09.50.08.png
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QVprod
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Post 30 May 2018

RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Dare I say something neutral, it results in - well, not physical attacks, but the passive-aggressive cornering has its effects. Thus I no longer wish to say anything else on this topic until NI says something.

Now, I understand though that such thing like 'unpopular opinion' exists, so I apologize for that, I guess and leave in shame now.
Thing is your statements aren't neutral. They're pretty much lean towards defending Softphonics despite facts that are clearly incriminating. Having autism doesn't explain any actions that have transpired thus far including shutting down everything so suddenly after the video started getting shared. That video was shared just a few hours or less before the website changed and he pulled his products from the shop. At this point users really just want to know how this affects them as their money was spent on a product that they will either not be able to use or will feel morally wrong for using.

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normen
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Post 30 May 2018

Technically Andrew said „I recorded them“, right? It could also mean recording NI instruments.. As said I am also 99% sure this is a scam but I‘d also say that theres no one at least in this thread who could say anything definitive about this apart from the fact that these are NI samples. And definitely not what should or should not be done to Andrew.

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esselfortium
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Post 30 May 2018

normen wrote:
30 May 2018
Technically Andrew said „I recorded them“, right? It could also mean recording NI instruments.. As said I am also 99% sure this is a scam but I‘d also say that theres no one at least in this thread who could say anything definitive about this apart from the fact that these are NI samples. And definitely not what should or should not be done to Andrew.
Looking at the interview, he claims to have recorded everything live from performers.
I found I had easy access to top musicians of all types, and I also had access to some wonderful places to record, So one day a light bulb went off in my head!
The instruments used has a lot to do with two factors: 1) What musicians am I working with next? 2) Does reason need something like this? If the answer to both is yes then I go for it. The String players used for EncoRE were recorded in the All Hallows Monastery in Drumcondra, just north of Dublin, on the other side of the city where I live. I was there to help record an orchestra who were backing a large choir who were performing newly written hymns for the Catholic church. I am not religious personally, but a job can take you in any direction.
I started a “ChoiRe” Refill a long time ago: I was working with a monk from California, he was making a CD called “Arise”. It was a really big choir, I took Record 1.5 into the church at the time to do the recordings and I still have them, I started making a Refill using samples from the original takes, altos, sopranos, tenors, basses, etc… I must get back working on it!
In general I only need to spend one day with each instrument live and then I do the rest in the studio. Musicians are very helpful when they learn that the result of what they play will end up in thousands of Reason based productions! (So no pressure right 😮 ) I find this is the best way to go about it as it keeps my costs to a low level, and in turn it keeps the Refills cost down too, so everyone wins essentially.
The last quote there is an especially baffling lie, in what universe would all these musicians unanimously agree to work for cheap because someone tells them he's going to be selling their labor to thousands of people?? And recording as many samples as were included in these refills would take a lot of time, not something that could be easily done on the cheap.
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Kenni
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Post 30 May 2018

To avoid this turning into a discussion club, here's what we do know:

- The video exists. It shows that there's more than a similarity between the different parties samples and in some cases the exact order of which the keys are mapped.

- Softphonics has previously stated that the samples were recorded by Softphonics, for the EncoRe specifically in The All Hallows monastery in Drumcondra.

- There are no photographic evidence to confirm the recording sessions and process. None are needed.

- From this statement, it seems safe to assume that NI has not made a claim regarding a copyright violation.

- A big part of the Softphonics products has been pulled. From the PH statement it's safe to assume that Softphonics pulled the products themselves.

- Softphonics announced that they ceased all development operations on the day this video became known by the public. At the same time it got impossible to get in contact with Softphonics as a public entity, and Andrew Skelton through social media.

- It is now publicly known that Andrew Skelton suffers from different health related issues. Whether or not people believe the official statement from Softphonics, or if he's "actually ill" is irrelevant.

Discussing the details of his illness or the plausibility of him being ill is inhumane and lacks tact. Please stop that immediately. If people want to put two and two together, remain objective. Whether or not we can then deduct anything from that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the fact that PH has stated that as long as there's no claims of copyright violation, there's nothing for them to act on. You will still have access to the Products in question if you have a license for them.

What is still a bit unclear is whether or not you, as a user, are liable when it comes to utilizing these products in your compositions. That would be nice to get 100% cleared.

From a more personal standpoint: I thinks it's clear what's been going on. NI will probably never act on, put in perspective, this tiny issue. Stop stirring the waters for the sake of stirring waters by dragging the discussion about whether or not Softphonics stole these samples and sold them under their own brand into a long run. Don't be troublemakers for the sake of being troublemakers. There's no place for that on RT, and we'll consider our options if we feel the need to.
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jimmyklane
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Post 30 May 2018

Kenni wrote:
30 May 2018
To avoid this turning into a discussion club, here's what we do know:

- The video exists. It shows that there's more than a similarity between the different parties samples and in some cases the exact order of which the keys are mapped.

- Softphonics has previously stated that the samples were recorded by Softphonics, for the EncoRe specifically in The All Hallows monastery in Drumcondra.

- There are no photographic evidence to confirm the recording sessions and process. None are needed.

- From this statement, it seems safe to assume that NI has not made a claim regarding a copyright violation.

- A big part of the Softphonics products has been pulled. From the PH statement it's safe to assume that Softphonics pulled the products themselves.

- Softphonics announced that they ceased all development operations on the day this video became known by the public. At the same time it got impossible to get in contact with Softphonics as a public entity, and Andrew Skelton through social media.

- It is now publicly known that Andrew Skelton suffers from different health related issues. Whether or not people believe the official statement from Softphonics, or if he's "actually ill" is irrelevant.

Discussing the details of his illness or the plausibility of him being ill is inhumane and lacks tact. Please stop that immediately. If people want to put two and two together, remain objective. Whether or not we can then deduct anything from that is irrelevant.

What is relevant is the fact that PH has stated that as long as there's no claims of copyright violation, there's nothing for them to act on. You will still have access to the Products in question if you have a license for them.

What is still a bit unclear is whether or not you, as a user, are liable when it comes to utilizing these products in your compositions. That would be nice to get 100% cleared.

From a more personal standpoint: I thinks it's clear what's been going on. NI will probably never act on, put in perspective, this tiny issue. Stop stirring the waters for the sake of stirring waters by dragging the discussion about whether or not Softphonics stole these samples and sold them under their own brand into a long run. Don't be troublemakers for the sake of being troublemakers. There's no place for that on RT, and we'll consider our options if we feel the need to.
Well said. I’ll keep the rest of my OPINION to myself, but I’ll state here that you’ve laid the facts out nicely.

Any ideas how any of us would go about getting approved or denied permission to use the product in a commercial release? I also wonder how/if NI would even notice unless it became a HUGE hit!??!
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nickb523
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Post 30 May 2018

RobC wrote:
30 May 2018
Wasn't the #1 reason on the website clear enough? If it sounds blurry, I think we can put the picture together. I didn't see any acknowledging of crime either if it's not enough.

You threw the ball in the air. Great. Sofphonics made their statement, Propellerhead made their statement, now we're waiting for what Native Instruments has to say.
Rob, we've already spoken about this on the facebook beta group. He is guilty, we've all seen the video and we've all got ears. Granted this needs to go through a legal process, but given the clear evidence, he is up shit creek without a paddle.

I would still defend him against personal attacks (as that really isn't fair), but from a business point of view, he should be punished.

Myself and Andrew were mates, we were working on RE's together and i've now had to pull out of any involvement with him. That isn't a decision i've taken lightly - It HAD to be done. It's his own stupid fault.

Andrew's "statement" is complete bollocks. He is flailing around all over the place like a guilty child and is not addressing anything properly.

At the core, he is a decent family orientated guy with his own set of health problems (don't we all?), but that does not excuse blatant theft and deception. He has fucked up royally and should be punished. I can't believe it went on so long. When i read that RT interview i felt sick to my stomach - It read like a proper con-artist in action.

I personally want nothing more to do with him or Softphonics. I cannot in any way, shape or form condone this sort of shenanigans.

I hope he can learn from this.

Nick

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normen
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Post 30 May 2018

Thanks for putting that info together @kenni. Mob mentality won‘t help either way.

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nickb523
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Location: Scotland

Post 30 May 2018

Quote from the ReFill contract that is relevant to the subject matter...
Infringement of Third Party Rights

The Licensor hereby warrants that the ReFills can be freely used by Propellerhead in accordance with this Agreement and that they are not encumbered by and do not infringe upon the right held by any third party.

The Licensor undertakes to compensate Propellerhead for any loss, damage or cost which Propellerhead through settlement or judgment is obliged to pay for infringement of an intellectual property right arising from Propellerhead's use of the ReFills.

In the event of a claim of infringement, the Licensor shall at his own expense take over the dispute and pursue legal proceedings on behalf of Propellerhead, and at his own expense either ensure Propellerhead the right to continued use of the ReFills or substitute a disputed portion of the ReFills with results corresponding to contracted specifications. If continued use of the ReFills can take place during a pending dispute, the Licensor shall furnish security for the loss which Propellerhead may incur as a result of a claimed infringement.

In addition to sums which Propellerhead is obliged to pay to a third party, Propellerhead is entitled to compensation for any other loss, damage or cost arising from the infringement.
I'm not really sure on the NDA position here as it's not stated in the paperwork. If anyone from Propellerhead does not approve please let me know and i will remove ASAP.

Nick

RobC
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Post 30 May 2018

Got it, Nick!

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miscend
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Post 30 May 2018

Image

Recent update.

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avasopht
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Post 30 May 2018

miscend wrote:
30 May 2018
Image

Recent update.
No comment on the copyright infringement, and still going with blaming others :disappointed:
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Ostermilk
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Post 30 May 2018

Isn't e-instruments lab (see StringWerk RE product page) responsible for NI's Session Strings among other libraries?

That would make them rather than NI (as everyone seems to be currently aassuming) the copyright holder of the samples, no?

Is anyone in contact with them around here, being as they are RE/IDT devs too?

https://www.e-instruments.com/

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avasopht
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Post 30 May 2018

Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018
Isn't e-instruments lab (see StringWerk RE product page) responsible for NI's Session Strings among other libraries?

That would make them rather than NI (as everyone seems to be currently aassuming) the copyright holder of the samples, no?

Is anyone in contact with them around here, being as they are RE/IDT devs too?

https://www.e-instruments.com/
Damn, you're right.

They did Session String / Horns / Piano!
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QVprod
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Post 30 May 2018

Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018
Isn't e-instruments lab (see StringWerk RE product page) responsible for NI's Session Strings among other libraries?

That would make them rather than NI (as everyone seems to be currently aassuming) the copyright holder of the samples, no?
There might be some joint ownership. Session Strings is part of Komplete. The relationship could be the similar to the A-List stuff based off UJam Virtual guitarist.

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FlowerSoldier
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Post 30 May 2018

Ostermilk wrote:
30 May 2018
Isn't e-instruments lab (see StringWerk RE product page) responsible for NI's Session Strings among other libraries?

That would make them rather than NI (as everyone seems to be currently aassuming) the copyright holder of the samples, no?

Is anyone in contact with them around here, being as they are RE/IDT devs too?

https://www.e-instruments.com/
You should be an attorney Ostermilk.

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