An update on copyright...

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RobC
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Post 04 Jun 2018

We need to consider every side.
After that I can say:
By being angry, you only cause harm to your nerves, and by acting out, your risk damaging your public image, too.
Discussing the situation in a civilized way is the solution.
Put what you have and know on the table.
By saying for example somebody should be burned, etc. you put yourself in bad light; and in the end authorized people won't decide by your punishment suggestion anyway.
It's how it works today and it can't be instantly changed with making comments.

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splangie
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Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Petze aus reiner Niedertracht - better? :)
Sneaky and vile, hmm?

Slightly worse, unless speaking for folks from the wrong side of fence to begin with. Sneeky and vile are terms normally used to describe the criminal, thief or crook, in English.
Reason 12.7.1xx73391 beta

WongoTheSane
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Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018
WongoTheSane wrote:
04 Jun 2018


Er... I'm sorry, but I have a hard time understanding your position. Someone has been caught doing bad things, people talk about it, it's human nature, and still, unless I'm misunderstanding something, you seem to say that people shouldn't discuss the matter? As for private things being made public, isn't it how it usually goes? Someone does a bad thing, they get reported, and the act of reporting itself most always consists of bringing private stuff to light, doesn't it? Talking about it is also a way to have additional witnesses tell the truth, that they probably wouldn't have said otherwise, for fear of retribution or ridicule or whatever else?

Saying that this matter shouldn't be talked about "until we know more" or "unless we're the copyright holders" (I'm not saying it's your position, mind you, it's one that has been stated several times here and I'm doing a lump answer) is completely untenable IMHO. If it was valid, we wouldn't discuss Trump on political forums. Or Weinstein, or the fake ukrainian death, or Kanye's latest album, or anything else for that matter, because who knows everything about anything? It's a theoretical position but it has no bearing on reality. People have been bamboozled by Softphonics, they have a right to discuss it, wonder what will happen and what the status of the goods they bought is. No one is actually bringing an actual rope to the table.

And saying that he shouldn't be considered guilty because no one has launched an action against him, is paradoxical: we don't know whether an action has been launched against him, because if it has, it's not going to be published on RT with hourly updates. You can't argue against ignorance by reasoning in ignorance. That he hasn't been condemned (yet), I agree. That he hasn't done the deed, considering the overwhelming evidence... that's just naive. Everybody can see that he did. That the punishment should be proportioned to the crime, I agree, and that the proportion should be decided by professional judges, I agree. Not guilty: I disagree, I've seen enough.
Let's take your specific example: The rumor would be that "Andrew said all Reason users are idiots" which is MILES from what he apparently actually said in a heated argument: "They are stupid for not knowing how easy to do IDT instruments are". Do you see what I am talking about when I say disgusting? Or what position don't you understand exactly?
Er... What? I don't understand how this relates to what I just said? My point is about this position of yours:

"at the same time you are in no place to demand anything or claim any deeper truths here. I mean that thrown-in rumor/accusation in the previous post is just disgusting don't you think? Repeatedly stating that it's almost 100% sure that he's guilty is just a bit better."

...and...

"this is what I am talking about - re-stating these things with your spin never ends good"

That's what I'm arguing against. Everybody is in a place to demand anything and/or claim deeper truths, and everybody is entitled to restate whatever they want, however many times they feel like; particularly those who have been victims. I may have misconstrued your position, though.

Regarding the private convo, the exact quote is (in the context of discussing IDT2): "best to let the idiots think it's really hard <laughing emojis> magic circle and all that jazz". Note that this quote isn't part of my own point, and I'm not sure why you're using it; my only point is that people should be allowed to discuss this matter as long as it remains civil.

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nickb523
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Location: Scotland

Post 04 Jun 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
04 Jun 2018
"best to let the idiots think it's really hard <laughing emojis> magic circle and all that jazz"
If that is a convo between Andrew and Jiggery then that is just Andrew playing Mr Big Balls. He didn't like feeling inferior. He really wasn't keen on criticism of any kind.

The fact that a few of you think that the IDT2 thing is easy confuses me. It's easier than programming a RE from scratch, but it's far from a 10 min job. I would consider something like Synthedit 'straightforward', but IDT2 tells you absolutely nothing. If the Props think that IDT2 is the way forward for ReFill Dev's then they have grossly underestimated just how 'stupid' a lot of us are.

Bah, promised myself i wouldn't post again yet here i am. Jesus i'm a fooking pleb. :lol:

Nick :)

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wendylou
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Post 04 Jun 2018

I'm lost... looking for the copyright thread?

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EnochLight
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Post 04 Jun 2018

Well, I do think it's a valid accomplishment that this thread made it 5 pages before breaking Godwin's Law. :puf_bigsmile: :lol:
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selig
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Post 04 Jun 2018

EnochLight wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Well, I do think it's a valid accomplishment that this thread made it 5 pages before breaking Godwin's Law. :puf_bigsmile: :lol:
Technically, Godwin's Law has yet to be "proven" in this thread, but it came close.
It was enough to consider locking the thread since it has long left the rails IMO (for the most part - some are still clinging to the subject like a fly clinging to a 747 on takeoff, good luck to them!).
;)
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nickb523
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Post 04 Jun 2018

Give it 3-6 posts.... :lol:

sleep1979
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Post 04 Jun 2018

I don't know if you guys can see this [Removed by mods - links to torrents of pirated software] ( I'M NOT SHARING OR DOWNLOADING THIS JUST PROVING A POINT HERE ) this is how easy it is to get cracked software , I pay for mine , reason intro aeon , kontakt player libraries etc I have nothing cracked on my system , basically what this guy was doing is selling people cracked software , and we are all payers here so , this cant be defended no matter how much of a decent human being , if u punch someone in the face and then say sorry , but then do it again u wasn't sorry in the first place were you ?

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normen
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Post 04 Jun 2018

selig wrote:
04 Jun 2018
I'm not understanding your point, but that hardly matters at this point IMO.
What I DO understand (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is that you intentionally started a truly disgusting rumor about another forum member, I'm guessing to prove your point that it's bad to start truly disgusting rumors about another forum member?

The problem I have is that what YOU said isn't just "MILES from what someone apparently said".
It was a complete fabrication, and one which could be considered slanderous, or at the least highly inflammatory.
At this point, probably best to let this whole thing go, OK?
Yep, you're right with every word there.

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rgdaniel
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Post 04 Jun 2018

Not sure where you'll judge me on the moral spectrum, but here's my take on this situation. In the past, I have knowingly used a pirated copy of Reason 4 and ill-gotten refills from the internet. Since buying Reason 9.5 last year I've remained strictly legit in my songs, and dropped a ton of cash in the store. Still just a hobby, and I won't claim any great moral epiphany, just easier and safer to play it straight. So I bought many Softphonics refills because they sounded awesome (as we now know why). So since I bought these things legally, and in good faith, and since the samples are, in the context of a song, probably nearly indistinguishable from the original righteous samples such that the odds of getting busted for using them are effectively nil, I therefore think I should feel free to use them going forward, without fear of moral or legal complications. That said, I haven't done that yet. They still feel a little "tainted". But that may fade.

sleep1979
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Post 04 Jun 2018

rgdaniel wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Not sure where you'll judge me on the moral spectrum, but here's my take on this situation. In the past, I have knowingly used a pirated copy of Reason 4 and ill-gotten refills from the internet. Since buying Reason 9.5 last year I've remained strictly legit in my songs, and dropped a ton of cash in the store. Still just a hobby, and I won't claim any great moral epiphany, just easier and safer to play it straight. So I bought many Softphonics refills because they sounded awesome (as we now know why). So since I bought these things legally, and in good faith, and since the samples are, in the context of a song, probably nearly indistinguishable from the original righteous samples such that the odds of getting busted for using them are effectively nil, I therefore think I should feel free to use them going forward, without fear of moral or legal complications. That said, I haven't done that yet. They still feel a little "tainted". But that may fade.
sorry mods i would have just taken a screenshot , i used cracked cubase back in the day , i think a lot of people have at some point , but when u begin to start paying for stuff you feel like its yours a proud feeling comes with that , that being said , i think u should be fine using them refills in compositions , i mean even if u used cracked software to make a hit only u would know u used cracked software so its a moral thing , but thats the thing isnt it you know , even though u paid for it its now the same as cracked software in a sense , i dont judge anyone mate its how u feel , i go to the cinema all the time , yet i download torrented movies aswell ,
but music and music software i pay for all that these days , i guess u say we could be Hippocrates ( spelling right? lol) but the difference here is people dont sell cracked software , and i'm sorry it is a difference downloading cracked software is not the same as someone rebranding cracked software and selling it to people who want to be honest , a lot of us started with cracked software but we choose no to be honest , softphonics took that right away , my nephew uses cracked fl studio he is 15 i'm sure he will buy a copy one day , and if he does theres nothing to judge , softphonics if he is guilty is no different to phone scammers trying to take honest peoples money.

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QVprod
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Post 04 Jun 2018

All video posts unrelated to this discussion have been removed. Please don't spam this topic.

djadalaide
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Post 04 Jun 2018

QVprod wrote:
04 Jun 2018
All video posts unrelated to this discussion have been removed. Please don't spam this topic.
Ok

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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 04 Jun 2018

normen wrote:
04 Jun 2018
avasopht wrote:
04 Jun 2018


Image

;)

On a serious note though, it is one of those 99% sure, but I think we'll get confirmation soon enough.
xD - Best post in this thread
esselfortium wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Uhm, no?
Okay. Because I heard you post PMs behind peoples back accusing people of being nazis.
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Classic strawman. No one is calling for him to be 'hung' as you put it. There are sadly only some of us here that appear to be concerned about unlicensed samples being sold and the criminality behind it.

Your question was bluntly put rather stupid. If exposed to illegal actions, the proper course of action is to report it. Of course in this 'modern' age, we worry more about our supposed 'freedoms' than our very real obligations.
Nobody is calling for him to be hung because the mods delete those posts.

The whole thread is about this copyright issue. So I don't see how "nobody cares". My question is about your personal gain in personally repeating the fact that he's most probably guilty. You still didn't answer that.

What @jimmyklane says is something you can demand - info on what you can or can't do with these instruments now.

You must have missed that pages back I said I had one of the products, I contact NI about it (both to report it and about my liability if used), and then I replied to another user that I got the same form email in reply.

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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 04 Jun 2018

rgdaniel wrote:
04 Jun 2018
Not sure where you'll judge me on the moral spectrum, but here's my take on this situation. In the past, I have knowingly used a pirated copy of Reason 4 and ill-gotten refills from the internet. Since buying Reason 9.5 last year I've remained strictly legit in my songs, and dropped a ton of cash in the store. Still just a hobby, and I won't claim any great moral epiphany, just easier and safer to play it straight. So I bought many Softphonics refills because they sounded awesome (as we now know why). So since I bought these things legally, and in good faith, and since the samples are, in the context of a song, probably nearly indistinguishable from the original righteous samples such that the odds of getting busted for using them are effectively nil, I therefore think I should feel free to use them going forward, without fear of moral or legal complications. That said, I haven't done that yet. They still feel a little "tainted". But that may fade.
Ignorance of a law is not a defense. And in this case, you can not even claim that. If you suspect or know that the samples you have are violations of someone else's IP and you use them without properly paying for them, you are just as guilty of theft as the one who sold them to you.

Have folks not been following torrenting, warez, Napster, and the legal issues on these sorts of things now for more than a decade? :roll:

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rgdaniel
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Post 05 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
If you suspect or know that the samples you have are violations of someone else's IP and you use them without properly paying for them, you are just as guilty of theft as the one who sold them to you.
I did properly pay for them. I have receipts and everything.
Are you saying Propellerhead is guilty of theft?

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avasopht
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Post 05 Jun 2018

rgdaniel wrote:
05 Jun 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
04 Jun 2018
If you suspect or know that the samples you have are violations of someone else's IP and you use them without properly paying for them, you are just as guilty of theft as the one who sold them to you.
I did properly pay for them. I have receipts and everything.
Are you saying Propellerhead is guilty of theft?
Here is how the copyright works.
  • e-instruments owns full rights.
  • Softphonics has no rights at all.
  • Anything softphonics granted you could not legally grant you rights to e-instruments sounds, because Softphonics had no legal rights.
That's just how copyright law works. Some other random Joe can't just grant copyright licenses to strangers that Joe does not legally own. If Joe does not legally have the rights to issue out rights to others, then the fact that you purchased them from Joe doesn't mean you suddenly have a legal right to use the samples.

Propellerhead are no more guilty of copyright theft than banks are for letting muggers deposit the cash they stole from others.

To give the car analogy: if Softphonics stole e-instruments car and sold it to you via eBay, eBay are not guilty of selling stolen goods, Softphonics are, and you do not legally own the car. The car is not yours. It is still e-instruments, because e-instruments did not sell you the rights to the car.

Same thing applies here.
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jam-s
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Location: Aachen, Germany

Post 05 Jun 2018

Basically e-instruments could sue you for using the samples. You might end up having to pay some settlement money and then you could in turn sue your dealer (Props or Softphonics) to try to get your losses compensated. In practice this will most likely take ages and might not prove worthwhile esp. as most legal insurances do not cover copyright cases.
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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 05 Jun 2018

avasopht wrote:
05 Jun 2018
rgdaniel wrote:
05 Jun 2018


I did properly pay for them. I have receipts and everything.
Are you saying Propellerhead is guilty of theft?
Here is how the copyright works.
  • e-instruments owns full rights.
  • Softphonics has no rights at all.
  • Anything softphonics granted you could not legally grant you rights to e-instruments sounds, because Softphonics had no legal rights.
That's just how copyright law works. Some other random Joe can't just grant copyright licenses to strangers that Joe does not legally own. If Joe does not legally have the rights to issue out rights to others, then the fact that you purchased them from Joe doesn't mean you suddenly have a legal right to use the samples.

Propellerhead are no more guilty of copyright theft than banks are for letting muggers deposit the cash they stole from others.

To give the car analogy: if Softphonics stole e-instruments car and sold it to you via eBay, eBay are not guilty of selling stolen goods, Softphonics are, and you do not legally own the car. The car is not yours. It is still e-instruments, because e-instruments did not sell you the rights to the car.

Same thing applies here.
Exactly. Thank you.

Really guys, if you use samples at all, you need to become far more knowledgeable about copyright law than some here are demonstrating. This is not a game.

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EnochLight
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Post 05 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
Exactly. Thank you.

Really guys, if you use samples at all, you need to become far more knowledgeable about copyright law than some here are demonstrating. This is not a game.
To play devils advocate...

No, it’s not a game, but it is a bit hyperbolic. Let’s be real: the vast majority here are bedroom “producers” and hobbiests. Anyone using these products professionally in an environment where they may be sued is extremely small. And until the copyright holders starts litigation against Propellerhead or Softphonics (whatever is left of them)...

...there’s seems to be a lot of worry for nothing.
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DJBuddhaBear
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Post 06 Jun 2018

EnochLight wrote:
05 Jun 2018
DJBuddhaBear wrote:
Exactly. Thank you.

Really guys, if you use samples at all, you need to become far more knowledgeable about copyright law than some here are demonstrating. This is not a game.
To play devils advocate...

No, it’s not a game, but it is a bit hyperbolic. Let’s be real: the vast majority here are bedroom “producers” and hobbiests. Anyone using these products professionally in an environment where they may be sued is extremely small. And until the copyright holders starts litigation against Propellerhead or Softphonics (whatever is left of them)...

...there’s seems to be a lot of worry for nothing.
Nope. Sorry, it doesn't matter if it is bedroom 'producers' or hobbyists. If you buy stolen property and use it only at home and not in public, it is still theft.

Wow, I seriously can't believe some of the shit I am reading here about this. You do know that ISP's will suspend users caught torrenting movies and TV shows, right? The users are not selling them. They are not playing them in public. They are only watching them in the privacy of their own homes. And, it is still theft.

Since when did following laws become 'hyperbolic'? *facepalm*

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avasopht
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Post 06 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
06 Jun 2018

Nope. Sorry, it doesn't matter if it is bedroom 'producers' or hobbyists. If you buy stolen property and use it only at home and not in public, it is still theft.

Wow, I seriously can't believe some of the shit I am reading here about this. You do know that ISP's will suspend users caught torrenting movies and TV shows, right? The users are not selling them. They are not playing them in public. They are only watching them in the privacy of their own homes. And, it is still theft.

Since when did following laws become 'hyperbolic'? *facepalm*
I wouldn't compare deliberately downloading and sharing torrents of TV shows with purchasing samples off of the Propellerhead shop and then later realising they are unlicensed.

I might have mentioned it in this thread or another, but back in the mid 00's music magazines used to include a CD with free samples. You would have the obvious 808's and ARP string ensemble samples, but for a while they would also include samples of hardware romplers.

Eventually the hardware manufacturers asked them to stop supplying them. I suspect there are a lot of chart songs built with those samples! Some aware and some not.

I guess we all have our own feelings about this, but I wouldn't expect some bedroom producer who's just spent money they can't be refunded to also delete their RE / Refill because they were duped. They shouldn't be the ones biting the bullet in this instance. It's a very unrealistic expectation.
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EnochLight
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Post 06 Jun 2018

DJBuddhaBear wrote:
06 Jun 2018
Nope. Sorry, it doesn't matter if it is bedroom 'producers' or hobbyists. If you buy stolen property and use it only at home and not in public, it is still theft.

Wow, I seriously can't believe some of the shit I am reading here about this. You do know that ISP's will suspend users caught torrenting movies and TV shows, right? The users are not selling them. They are not playing them in public. They are only watching them in the privacy of their own homes. And, it is still theft.

Since when did following laws become 'hyperbolic'? *facepalm*
:roll:

Yeah, hyperbole. And please don’t get me wrong - of course “stealing is wrong”, but you’re making it sound like the FBI or the CIA or the KGB or whatever era you’re from wil come knocking on your door just because some kid in his bedroom studio bought one of Softphoncs refills or RE’s.

That’s patently wrong, if not at least disingenuous.

But sure, continue running around with your hands in the air and scream. Meanwhile, I’ll get my bike off your lawn.
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avasopht
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Post 06 Jun 2018

EnochLight wrote:
06 Jun 2018
:roll:

Yeah, hyperbole. And please don’t get me wrong - of course “stealing is wrong”, but you’re making it sound like the FBI or the CIA or the KGB or whatever era you’re from wil come knocking on your door just because some kid in his bedroom studio bought one of Softphoncs refills or RE’s.
They'd better be if they stole my samples :evil:
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