Suggestion for sequencers implementing probability

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electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

17 May 2018

Probability of a trig is a nice way to extend 16 step patterns but it is random and hard to control. Thats where conditional trigs shine where you can set a trig to trigger at defined conditions like play once every 4 loops, or every other loop (and more complicated things like trigger when the previous/next trig is triggering).

Now the latter is probably alot of work to implement but how about having at least some probability values (25,50,75) act as fixed values where 25 is play every fourth loop, 50 is every other loop, and 75 is play the first 3 but not the 4th loop.

EdGrip
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Joined: 03 Jun 2016

17 May 2018

All of these things could be implemented in their own utility Player which can be used in conjunction with step sequencer Players. You might need to tell it how many steps are in the sequence as I don't know if the Players can communicate that information automatically with one another.
What I'm saying is this doesn't need to be a new step sequencer Player, just a conditional probability module that lets notes through or not.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

17 May 2018

I am actually talking about the already available sequencers that have probability (Kompulsion, Drumsequencer and a few others). Obviously i would prefer a feature rich conditional trig engine (which hardware sequencers like Digitakt put on top of the probability parameter). But for starters the mentioned three values would be nice and cover quite a few use cases (like eg double kick in the fourth bar etc.). An additional device could even be stitched together but i think it is easier to integrate it into the probability param. Kompulsion already has something like that for some values. And by integrating it your pattern data stays in one place.

kraftf
Posts: 31
Joined: 06 May 2018

21 Sep 2018

+1
If this gets implemented into drumsequencer or kopmulsion-propulsion-korde I will eventually get rid rid of octatrack.
conditional probabilities can give you much more structured results when using patterns with a few steps(e.g. 8 or 16) .
The way things are implemented now with probabilities is way too random to be used all the time. Don't get me wrong I like randomness but I also like structure inside randomness! this what chaos is defined as!!!

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guitfnky
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21 Sep 2018

electrofux wrote:
17 May 2018
An additional device could even be stitched together but i think it is easier to integrate it into the probability param.
I'd love to see this. it's really tough to build out this sort of thing on your own. I did manage some level of custom probability control with the enormous drum sequencer combi I shared several months ago, but it would be awesome to have more in depth control built into the players.

something that looks at all of the kit pieces that are triggered and suppresses them intelligently should be possible. for example, a real drummer can't (usually) play a tom, a crash cymbal, and the snare simultaneously. if all three would be triggered simultaneously by probability, the player should be able to drop the one with the lowest probability setting.
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selig
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21 Sep 2018

What you’re suggesting is basically the same as support for longer patterns, right? Since the conditions are met every time the sequence plays, it would probably make more sense to just provide the ability to work with longer patterns in the first place. There would be little “saved” by introducing a new parameter to fix the issue of not having a long enough pattern.

Now, if you combine probability and conditions, you’ll have a very interesting potential feature. But conditional on it’s own, as described above, seems somewhat like a cumbersome solution for short patterns - unless there’s some application beyond what you’ve described?


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MannequinRaces
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21 Sep 2018

Even though this is an older thread wanted to chime in that PSQ is fairly easy to dial in pulses that repeat every other bar, one every measure, etc.. The new RE Trigate should help with the 2nd part.

kraftf
Posts: 31
Joined: 06 May 2018

21 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
21 Sep 2018
What you’re suggesting is basically the same as support for longer patterns, right? Since the conditions are met every time the sequence plays, it would probably make more sense to just provide the ability to work with longer patterns in the first place. There would be little “saved” by introducing a new parameter to fix the issue of not having a long enough pattern.

Now, if you combine probability and conditions, you’ll have a very interesting potential feature. But conditional on it’s own, as described above, seems somewhat like a cumbersome solution for short patterns - unless there’s some application beyond what you’ve described?


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I don't really get where the cumbersome goes from your post. Does it refer to the implementation of a conditional probability to existing sequencers or to the way it was described by someone in the thread?
Anyway I don't know if you have tried ELEKTRON machines that have conditional trigs. They are just mind blowing. You can turn a 16 step mono pattern to an structured 4 bar very easily by just adding conditional triggers (1/2, 1/4, 3/4 where the denominator is the number of bars and the numerator is how many times the trigger will happen).
I think propulsion or compulsion would be so much more fun and effective tools if they used these kinds of conditional trigs). I suppose in terms of coding this could be quite simple. A switch can added to define the probability sliders as conditional and then the slider would provide different useful values. This would retain compatibility with previous versions. I hope electric panda will consider this! :puf_smile: :puf_smile:

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buddard
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22 Sep 2018

kraftf wrote:
21 Sep 2018
You can turn a 16 step mono pattern to an structured 4 bar very easily by just adding conditional triggers (1/2, 1/4, 3/4 where the denominator is the number of bars and the numerator is how many times the trigger will happen).
I think the A:B condition works a little different from your description. For example, 2:4 means "Play the 2nd cycle out of 4", not "Play 2 cycles out of 4". So the numerator tells you which cycle to play on, not how many.

(If I have understood this correctly, that is)

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

22 Sep 2018

selig wrote:
21 Sep 2018
What you’re suggesting is basically the same as support for longer patterns, right? Since the conditions are met every time the sequence plays, it would probably make more sense to just provide the ability to work with longer patterns in the first place. There would be little “saved” by introducing a new parameter to fix the issue of not having a long enough pattern.

Now, if you combine probability and conditions, you’ll have a very interesting potential feature. But conditional on it’s own, as described above, seems somewhat like a cumbersome solution for short patterns - unless there’s some application beyond what you’ve described?


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Sure, if you had like endless pattern lengths then it would in the end be the same. But it is a workflow feature and workflow is kindof the opposite to cumbersome. It often correlates with the amount of clicks and tweaks you need to do to achieve what came to your mind.
Take an 8 track 1 bar pattern in a sequencer like Redrum. You then find a double kick or clap at the end of bar 4 would be nice. With conditions this is a one tweak action with Redrum it is a multi click action because you have to recreate your 1 bar three times =24 clicks +1. Or you copy your pattern then add a Redrum track and then have Redrum switching patterns again more stuff to do and the (for more editing purposes) annoying automated pattern switch.
Apart from that many sequencers in Reason dont even have 4 bars- it would especially fit the new Drumsequencer well. And with conditions you are not even restricted by 4 as they could be 8 or whatever number.
They could also be made counting bars instead of loops so odd occurances of a trigger can be achieved overtime. Conditions could be added to a fill button, so they only occur when this button is pressed - nice for live purposes.
It is not perfect when compared to editing every single step in a long pattern like in the main sequencer of Reason but we are talking step sequencer here and these have their strength in workflow anyways.

electrofux
Posts: 863
Joined: 21 Jan 2015

22 Sep 2018

buddard wrote:
22 Sep 2018
kraftf wrote:
21 Sep 2018
You can turn a 16 step mono pattern to an structured 4 bar very easily by just adding conditional triggers (1/2, 1/4, 3/4 where the denominator is the number of bars and the numerator is how many times the trigger will happen).
I think the A:B condition works a little different from your description. For example, 2:4 means "Play the 2nd cycle out of 4", not "Play 2 cycles out of 4". So the numerator tells you which cycle to play on, not how many.

(If I have understood this correctly, that is)
2:4 in the Digitakt means. Play on the count of 2 and reset the counter every four. A nice addition would be an inversion like NOT 2:4.




The kindof gui beauty of this is that all the conditions sit on one paramater on top of the random percentages.
A single sequencer line with alot of conditions can be stitched together with the COUNT and TRUTH REs, so adding this to a real RE sequencer shouldnt be a huge undertaking but i am not a RE dev so who knows.

Was hoping Robotic Bean will sometimes release a Drumsequencer with this kindof stuff as his REs usually are perfectly remotable and that is key to me at least.

kraftf
Posts: 31
Joined: 06 May 2018

22 Sep 2018

buddard wrote:
22 Sep 2018
kraftf wrote:
21 Sep 2018
You can turn a 16 step mono pattern to an structured 4 bar very easily by just adding conditional triggers (1/2, 1/4, 3/4 where the denominator is the number of bars and the numerator is how many times the trigger will happen).
I think the A:B condition works a little different from your description. For example, 2:4 means "Play the 2nd cycle out of 4", not "Play 2 cycles out of 4". So the numerator tells you which cycle to play on, not how many.

(If I have understood this correctly, that is)
Yes you are correct. My mistake!

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Exowildebeest
Posts: 1553
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

22 Sep 2018

+1 on having Elektron-style sequencers in Reason!

Propellerheads and Elektron should sit down together :)

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11685
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

22 Sep 2018

electrofux wrote: Sure, if you had like endless pattern lengths then it would in the end be the same. But it is a workflow feature and workflow is kindof the opposite to cumbersome. It often correlates with the amount of clicks and tweaks you need to do to achieve what came to your mind.
Take an 8 track 1 bar pattern in a sequencer like Redrum. You then find a double kick or clap at the end of bar 4 would be nice. With conditions this is a one tweak action with Redrum it is a multi click action because you have to recreate your 1 bar three times =24 clicks +1. Or you copy your pattern then add a Redrum track and then have Redrum switching patterns again more stuff to do and the (for more editing purposes) annoying automated pattern switch.
Apart from that many sequencers in Reason dont even have 4 bars- it would especially fit the new Drumsequencer well. And with conditions you are not even restricted by 4 as they could be 8 or whatever number.
They could also be made counting bars instead of loops so odd occurances of a trigger can be achieved overtime. Conditions could be added to a fill button, so they only occur when this button is pressed - nice for live purposes.
It is not perfect when compared to editing every single step in a long pattern like in the main sequencer of Reason but we are talking step sequencer here and these have their strength in workflow anyways.
Granted, ReDrum is probably the worst case, but I get what you’re saying. If nothing else, it’s another way to deal with extended patterns, sort of like a “shorthand” version. I’m sure once you understand the concept it’s easy to work within it’s limitations. So I see how it’s a useful way around the common problem of extending a pattern with one or two variations, something I see come up in my work quite frequently.

This is something I think may come in handy for a future device of mine (and I haven’t spent time with a device that implements this feature), so that’s why I’m asking probing questions here - it’s not because I think this is a bad idea! :)


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