How do I know an RE isn't just some advanced combinator of stock / sdk devices?

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Zac
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16 May 2018

adfielding wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018


Me too. You've misunderstood me Adam. There was a recent tape sat RE.. i was talking about that and how IMO it could just be scream4 and some eq... how am i to know now these fx are coming from the latest sdk are unaltered rather than the inspired and well deserved love i have for previous fx? I love refills but if i want stock combinators i would be buying them. Not unknowingly under the skin of a rack extension.

I feel quite strongly about this. Ive been here since late 2001. I know some things.

My niece is only 9. How will she know what's good and what's derivative crap 5 years from now? Prices won't help looking at the way things are going.
Ahh, sorry - my misunderstanding! Well, from the looks of things I guess there’s a lot of stuff that needs airing, and from where I’m standing it’s not good for the RE platform. This whole thread gets grimmer the more I read so I’m going to bow out and see where it leads.
I was hoping to invite discussion that may differentiate the good from the opportunistic. But i can see i made a misjudgement. I'll bow out too.

Xoxo

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JiggeryPokery
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16 May 2018

Socram wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Good to know. So all these new fx are gorilla based? Same deception IMO. If that's true?

One developer has put out 8+ fx in a month or so. If I'm wrong that they aren't just putting small twists on devices available in the new idt sdk then I'm sorry. As i said in my 1st post.
The Gorilla Engine stuff is quite new (10.1), and I know the dev in particular that you're accusing of this has been putting out devices since before its release.
Hi Socram, you're way off base here.

SDK3 only came out last week, and added Player support. Yet there were seven new Players in the shop the same day! Including one of yours! By your own assessment of GE FX, does that mean you knocked up your Player device, from start to finish, last Monday morning? :puf_wink:

For what it's worth, I started SuperNova in IDT2 last December, and it had been around for a good while before I joined the beta.

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guitfnky
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
My niece is only 9. How will she know what's good and what's derivative crap 5 years from now?
the same way we all should; use her ears.
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Socram
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16 May 2018

JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 May 2018

Hi Socram, you're way off base here.

SDK3 only came out last week, and added Player support. Yet there were seven new Players in the shop the same day! Including one of yours! By your own assessment of GE FX, does that mean you knocked up your Player device, from start to finish, last Monday morning? :puf_wink:

For what it's worth, I started SuperNova in IDT2 last December, and it had been around for a good while before I joined the beta.
Okay I am not an IDT developer (never touched it tbh) so I was under the impression the new SDK was required to use the new IDT2 just like the Players were. Tool availability != release availability, at least in the Player's case but I guess that wasn't so for IDT2. I should not have assumed and probably thought a bit more critically about some of the releases ha, with GE the line has been blurred quite a bit.
Static Cling - Rack Extension Developer of Tome, Index, Optic, Chord Detector, Delta, and AutoLatch.
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JiggeryPokery
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16 May 2018

Socram wrote:
16 May 2018
Okay I am not an IDT developer (never touched it tbh) so I was under the impression the new SDK was required to use the new IDT2 just like the Players were. Tool availability != release availability, at least in the Player's case but I guess that wasn't so for IDT2. I should not have assumed and probably thought a bit more critically about some of the releases ha, with GE the line has been blurred quite a bit.
No worries. Love your Player btw!

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Zac
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16 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
My niece is only 9. How will she know what's good and what's derivative crap 5 years from now?
the same way we all should; use her ears.
Sorry but that's rubbish imo. I was late 20s when i got into r1.01. It was only a few devices but it still took me some time to understand how to use it let alone realise what it was that made it sound good.

I'll take my niece out of this example if you don't mind. She loves to sing but will never learn any daw. But what if some aspiring talented person sees the re shop and decides on some shitty plugin because of the biased audio examples and cheap price?

Just saying imo there has been a flood of inferiority recently. Sorry, but that's what i think.

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guitfnky
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16 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
I would suggest getting registered as a Dev and check out the new tools for yourself.

What is provided for you to work with is full on BARE-BONES... TBH, i wish it was more like a combi with a skin that was in a separate section of the shop labelled "powered by *whoever*" on the GUI, but alas, it's quite a bit more difficult than that.
you’re not kidding. what was provided isn’t nearly as easy to follow as their “hey, apply to be an RE dev! it’s easy!” pitch on the Props site implies.
I write good music for good people

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guitfnky
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
guitfnky wrote:
16 May 2018


the same way we all should; use her ears.
Sorry but that's rubbish imo. I was late 20s when i got into r1.01. It was only a few devices but it still took me some time to understand how to use it let alone realise what it was that made it sound good.

I'll take my niece out of this example if you don't mind. She loves to sing but will never learn any daw. But what if some aspiring talented person sees the re shop and decides on some shitty plugin because of the biased audio examples and cheap price?

Just saying imo there has been a flood of inferiority recently. Sorry, but that's what i think.
what if some aspiring talented person decides on some shitty plugin because of the audio examples and cheap price? same answer; use their ears.

use your ears, and you won’t end up buying shitty plugins. easy-peasy. and if you think the sound examples provided are “biased” (which sort of makes no sense if they were actually created with the plugin in question, but okay, I’ll play), there’s another very simple solution; trial it first. then as you’re trialing...use your ears.
I write good music for good people

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nickb523
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16 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
16 May 2018
nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
I would suggest getting registered as a Dev and check out the new tools for yourself.

What is provided for you to work with is full on BARE-BONES... TBH, i wish it was more like a combi with a skin that was in a separate section of the shop labelled "powered by *whoever*" on the GUI, but alas, it's quite a bit more difficult than that.
you’re not kidding. what was provided isn’t nearly as easy to follow as their “hey, apply to be an RE dev! it’s easy!” pitch on the Props site implies.
Yup... IDT/GE is HARD. I have much respect for the GE Dev's... it's not a joke! :)

The cream always rises to the top. ;)

Nick

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16 May 2018

Interesting thread! I had been quietly wondering what was going on.

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turn2on
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16 May 2018

Hi, understand that this topic about our REs.
Need add informative corrections.. About IDT platform, our current RE and answer to your thoughts..

About year ago I start to work with UJAM on early product under NDA program. Its been a synth and it not already released today, because it in work all this year. (I talk it because you think that all IDT is very easy. I work only on samples part about 4 months, NOT GET it from free-source wav libraries as doing many VST devs, all create manual with love). This synth is not ready. And yes it under new IDT. Year. One year. Not fast work of everyday routine. And it not finished to 100.0% today!
We at finished way with our RE but not announce it at this days.

Me is one of first devs who come with early version of new UJAM IDT product. Its work about half of 2017.
Many solutions of this UJAM project created in many long months of talks and searching by UJAM solutions last whole year to my Wishlist and later from another devs.
From first days I ask add audio fx support as example and many other things that under NDA,
many big things I ask and talk about them with UJAM, and its been about last year.

All our REs that you can see in this month and previous months - its work not of last month! And also not only of this 2018 year.. For understanding.

I as dev, stay from start of this new IDT as active tester and create many things to Wishlist, that we have today there.

I glad to see in this topic devs and users going to Agreement, include NDA. But if you just open this days released product for Devs and wonder why another devs (turn2on) already have there effects been released, and think its very fast work and solution in one month - its wrong.

Many things that created in UJAM product, I personally ask at early beta-stage. And now I use free to any dev product.
I just use that things about what I dram months ago, ask and get.

Ok, for better understand, I try to talk in another way.
Look at NI Reaktor. Users free to run Reaktor, crate own patches. Create own devices! And also sell them or make it free.
Now you can look to current IDT2. Its now open info after release.

But you as a dev who open this IDT and look, talk with users in this topic in key, that why Turn2on create new REs and publish them in last month..
Need to open eyes. Where you been when going beta-test of product?
Think about it when talk that another devs make 8 RE in one month in key, that this DEV (me) work with this IDT around year. What you have as dev in this project, partly you have from my own suggestion.
You as a dev in this situation need to get what you can and make new product based on it as you can.

Not all product form our FX-re is linear fx as is as!
There NO scream4 parts in them.
Any developer can start as RE Dev and create own products with this project. You are welcome.

But talk now, as look into it as developer who under NDA and talk with it on public domain - its a big question. Also because you try in this theme to discriminate me, Turn2on.

Its a bad play of Devs.
To users for understand whats going on - easy situation. When new product coming, and active tester have on hands ready products from this project, another new dev look at IDT utilities and start a topic in key "why they release 8 fx" and I not release them?

I understand this point. But any started devs with this IDT2 project, must know, that I as part of Turn2on stay many months from start of this project and ask many things...
Not. My personal role in IDT2 - not big deal. Its all work of UJAM. But all this time I suggest many things that been included to make my projects.

Finally, need to repeat FOR any devs and users that get IDT after registration in dev program, that like to talk on public domains deeper about IDT - think before write deeper - you under NDA. Just open docs of IDT and read them.

I can understand WHY any users that view IDT2 as devs and think why they released his shitty RE, that is combi with GUI...
IYou make bad play for current IDT platform. Problem not in future coming effects, that can have same functionality.. Problem in future effects that devs DO using absolutely in same way.

Now for Reason users. Turn2ons RE fx not basic effects in main part. Its deeper. If users and pre-devs look on IDT2 and think anyway in this key - its wrong positions.
Effect PhatSat - is a really fundamental effect and in near time have a updates from fundamental to new massve-core with nice alternatives in class of RE and VST standards in..

Person who talk about IDT2 and effects, as ready library of IDT and just use it without changes - told not understand about what talk:
1) its like Reaktor with deepest routing far many variations and solutions for any dev. Just open Reaktor and open category of effect types. You can find various effects that not sound same.
2) basic libraries of IDT2 used as developer need. Dev create RE. Another Dev create another RE. And making newer RE - problem of this dev how to use libraries. It absolutely not speak about first Dev kjust use library elements as is as. Its absolutely NOT TRUE.
3) after creating effects, devs work under updates. Released RE - not finally RE that Dev do. Its why devs create new features as version 1.1, 1.5.. 2.0. Who said that what Turn2on released - is absolutely copy of library? I already cite in topics about our RE plans of near updates in functional keys. And all users receive in near time this features.
PhatSat - released TODAY. I not have time to create theme about it on forum and not write about near updates plans.

FINLALY.
Before named anything copy of native Reason device, name any product as shit, and saying "I look to IDT and can say..".. Just create one RE based on IT. And we start to talk.
Effects in IDT2, devs have in my own suggestion of long months as active beta-tester...

I just attach there blurred picture of synth based on IDT2, that Turn2on started from June as manual wave-source creating and as active beta-test developer form September. 12 month at 1st June from manual wavs creating, and 9 moths of active stage IDT2 beta testing....
.. and IDT2 have many intresting things for DEVs that an start with IDT2..
.. and we create many effects that get updates, that we start before
.. and we add info about our 1-year synth project:

IMG_1704.JPG
IMG_1704.JPG (51.52 KiB) Viewed 3129 times

To users as pre-devs who can view IDT2, and IDT2 devs.
All libraries that include IDT2 - any Dev can include in ONE synth as example. And its going on as you look to announces..
But no needs to think that under IDT2 only library fx as is as..
Coming Colossus include many FXs. But its not pain for any other RE dev.

Now era of hybrid devices. And its very good time.
Trying be unique with themes where talk that one dev make a shit, its nonsense, because library open and any dev can what he want.
Devs and pre-devs must need talk about this not on public domains.
There we have many talks about IDT2 but not open NDA cards at this moment.

As Turn2on dev, I already say, that our RE - not fundamental libraries as is as into IDT2, because we already write announces with our near update plans.
All this REs created before IDT2 is released. Remember it, and not write a lie that Turn2on (who make many things for IDT2 been what is today present) create shit devices from libraries as is as..

About HarmBode, I already write why users can be interested in it when they can have ECHOBODE.. what our update can do that ECHOBODE cant..

No panic. Make music / Make RE - with love!!!

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Zac
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16 May 2018

Well it wouldn't be a forum if we couldn't have differing views. Your latest fx are not for me but many seem to find them valuable. This thread has answered a few of my questions so has been worthwhile for me. Best of luck.

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normen
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16 May 2018

Doesn't this question go deeper? I mean how DO you know that you're not just buying yet another subtractive synth, yet another EQ, yet another combination of effects you already have :) Most effects until the 90s/2000s were a combination of level modulation, phase shifting and linear and nonlinear distortions.. Just in different incarnations.

So I guess my point here is that there isn't anything new under the sun anyway - so why would you look for originality if you just want a certain effect ;)

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eusti
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16 May 2018

Respect, turn2on! Thanks for replying so level - headed in this thread!
Went and bought the PhatSat right away as I wanted support your endeavors.

D.

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turn2on
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16 May 2018

Normen. Try to look at this from other sides.
1) Native Reason devices very old. They sound good but include very very basic parameters. After Reason user bought Reason, he need deeper effects.

Look at Phasers. There you can select few. Phase28 on of that have SYNC, absolutely normal for 2018. Yes you can try Branded phaser in the shop that sound too, but not have this deeper settings. Also Phase 28 - sound very nice, have more options, stages.
Same with another fxs.

Look at Echobode and kHz shifter. Users need this underrated FX. Sombody already use them. But what better? Know that you can touch near $2000 hardware effect closer to original (I work already with modular variation) or use changed range of freq with delay as more creative fx than original really sound? Basically HarmBode more closer to original, and have more sideband variants. In near update it include second sidebands with selectable modes. At this point you get more realistic to classic, maximum flexibility of Bode not on RE, but also in VST! Musicians can touch to it! And if it can be better than actual RE and VST, no points to sad. As developer today I also know too few variations how use at fundamental for new effects, and other devs can be welcome with them very easy!


2) look at guitar pedals world. There big market! Very big range of pedals with same components, musicians bought what they prefer.

3) you talk that now FXs repeated, because many fx today use old technologies and based on old fx. Main part of effects really based on another fxs in industry. And many modern fxs - is hybrids of old classic fxs. No need to talk that old effects is fundamental is bad, it’s wrong.

4) same politic going with Reaktor NI effects. And there many variations of basic effects that changed as deeper variations.

5) modern creativity FXs is a hybrid devices include few FX basically. And it’s not bad!!! Echobode go out from original Bode, but today we not just rebuild it under IDT2, but can create more flexible and deeper variants with more hybrid elements in sum!

Point of view of real-RE devs can be another, but they understand that all things can be used few times in various ways.

Open fx theory books. You from d how to use many effects in way to another types fx. It’s perfect experience to know basics.

Reason users is free to select what they want. Props not need same fxs on shop but developers can create new variations that not sound same, identical.

Devs use libraries, hardware guys use open schemes. And all of them can change something to create new.

Situation with this IDT2 really nice! Devs can do more. Really more. Users can get more intresting and sound very good!

If anybody cry that he can’t understand where native and where IDT, it’s principal bad for him.
Any RE, is Re! And have own sound.

In topic before written that scream4 sounds gong in new few REs, it’s not true,
All new distortions sound not same. And not touch scream4.

PhatSat not sound same to scream4. Just listen them. And on future versions go deeper to saturation world.

But anybody can have own points of view, no problems) musicians choice with buy/not buy after test.

Another devs free to create more deeper and complex fxs.

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Faastwalker
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17 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
16 May 2018
does it sound good? does it do something a stock device or other RE doesn't? is it worth the cost to you? if so, it doesn't matter. if not, move along. being critical of a developer for using the tools they have available makes little sense. simply don't buy the products you don't want.
Interesting discussion. But I'm inclined to go with this view to be honest. I don't think anyone is being cheated here. If something appeals to you after you've hit the TRY button & you think it's worth the price then you will likely go for the BUY button. If not you won't. Nobody is twisting our arms & there's a good amount of choice in the RE shop now.

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normen
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17 May 2018

turn2on wrote:
16 May 2018
Normen. Try to look at this from other sides.
Well I did, there isn‘t a single RE where I don‘t know what it does or that I couldn‘t replace with another device or plugin. There is nothing unique about any of them and guitar pedals are the best example for useless „more“ you could have given.

That said you seem to be very defensive - I don‘t say that this is a bad thing. Just try to look at it from an audio engineers side who does NOT want to sell devices ;)

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Loque
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17 May 2018

normen wrote:
17 May 2018
turn2on wrote:
16 May 2018
Normen. Try to look at this from other sides.
Well I did, there isn‘t a single RE where I don‘t know what it does or that I couldn‘t replace with another device or plugin.
Hum...

Effect wise? Maybe.

Sound wise? Maybe not, well, not at all.

I have bunch of different devices for similar effects, like chorus, compressor, phaser, filter, grain, delay, reverb and many more. In theory they should more or less sound the same, but they dont. Some sound quite similar or have similar control of the effect, but there are some, that completely sound different. I have also a bunch of amps and saturation devices, some work in specific cases, where others just do not work.

Maybe i could replace all of those devices with just one? Maybe. Typical Reason sound? Maybe. Does the standard listener detects the differences? Probably not. Do it hear the difference, yea, in most cases. Primary and most important customer of my music is ME, so MY ears count, that is why i have different device choices.

Beside audio/sound, there is also workflow. Having a compressor with dry/wet is much faster to use than setting up a parallel compressor and hastle with latency and phasing. Having a amp with everything inside is quicker to use than to build a crunch/fuzz/comp/eq/limit/overdrive setup.

And i did not talked about, what every dev can do under the hood, that you cannot see or even recreate like dynamic eq responses, frequency-depended compression/limiting/expansion, phase modulations and probably more stuff i dont have a clue about....

And the conclusion is: Good to have choices. Good to hear the difference. Good to work different (nor only quicker).

But i agree, that there are some devs out there (regardless VST, RE, other software or whatever products), that sell crap with uber price tags or just produce spam and try to make moar money (eg. spread 3 features along 3 devices instead of having only one). And i am guilty to bought some sh!t of them, but i probably will not ever do again. I am proud and willingly supporting good sounding, unique devices of high quality in future, with focus on what i need, want, never thought about, pushes my creativity or workflow.

Did i already mentioned, that every of my synths has a "square" or "triangle" wave?
Reason12, Win10

danc
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17 May 2018

Don't want to hijack this conversation with too much of a tangent - but... since the introduction of VST support, it is an extremely tough sell for RE developers to convince me to buy an RE instead of VST. The minor (some might argue huge) improvement in usability, stability, and sometimes improved CPU overhead, that RE give isn't enough to sway me towards RE instead of VST.

Having said that... there are a few REs that get my immediate attention and convince me to trial and then press buy - e.g. Noise Engineering Eurorack REs. But it is becoming much more an exception rather than the rule. Seriously - how many dull 3 out of 5 (Prop review scored) saturation, distortion, reverb, delay, filter FX do I need?

Sorry to come across negative, but I feel like I'm falling into a trap of now buying an RE just out of loyalty (and support people for putting in the effort) these days rather than because they are better investment.

ALSO - I think Propellerhead need to improve their customer product review process - allowing people to write a review not just press a number between 1 and 5. REs are rarely reviewed by the music press and so this reverts me to sites like Reasontalk where I read people's commentary - but that comes with a lot of hot air and slanted opinions (yes - the music press have slants, but less contrived). Whereas - I can get in-depth reviews (from many angles) with VST products.
Check my Soundcloud:

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Kenni
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17 May 2018

The current influx of new devices based on the new IDT2/GE does not necessarily mean that they're fast and easy to dish out. These tools might have been under development for a good while and released in batches now since the update is out and developers are cleared to release them. I do wish that there was a clear way as a consumer to distinct between devices written using original DSP code and libraries made available for the overall Reason SDK ecosystem only though. Me saying "original DSP code" is quite a stretch as well. It might be code heavily relying on tutorial code and open sourced ways of doing things. Please remember that.

Without knowing anything about the UJAM effect libraries, I take it that no matter how you implement these libraries, no matter how you script the usage of the libraries, and no matter how you combine the output of different UJAM effect libraries, the DSP code is what it is. Is this a wrong assumption?

Like Adam Fielding said, I too fear that this will eventually clutter the market with devices that ultimately utilize the same DSP code in new ways, leaving an array of devices that aren't that unique in how the signals are processed (how can they be, if the DSP code is the same?). When that's said, a lot of people are heavily relying on their workflow. If two devices does more or less the same thing, but one of them has a workflow that suits the individual better, it's not a waste, right? :)

The real problem to me? I'll quote myself (so smug):
Music making today has turned into this Pokémon-Go thing where it's about collecting stuff and talk a lot about what licenses you own. It's like people forgot that their music and it's sounds are generated first and foremost by the entity sitting about 20 inches from the screen, not by comments, collections and purchases.
To be honest, I'm undecided whether or not I like this IDT2/GE direction when it comes to effects. A part of me is worried that a lot of half-baked developers will take advantage of this and take a shot at what they may mistakingly view as a cash-cow. Another part of me feel that people should step down and stop worrying about the "other consumers being deceived" - How can they be deceived if they actually choose to buy the devices? Ultimately it's up to the consumers to spot the half-baked attempts at grabbing your money, if any. A fair bit of consumer scepticism is important!
Kenni Andruszkow
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Loque
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17 May 2018

danc wrote:
17 May 2018
Don't want to hijack this conversation with too much of a tangent - but... since the introduction of VST support, it is an extremely tough sell for RE developers to convince me to buy an RE instead of VST. The minor (some might argue huge) improvement in usability, stability, and sometimes improved CPU overhead, that RE give isn't enough to sway me towards RE instead of VST.

Having said that... there are a few REs that get my immediate attention and convince me to trial and then press buy - e.g. Noise Engineering Eurorack REs. But it is becoming much more an exception rather than the rule. Seriously - how many dull 3 out of 5 (Prop review scored) saturation, distortion, reverb, delay, filter FX do I need?

Sorry to come across negative, but I feel like I'm falling into a trap of now buying an RE just out of loyalty (and support people for putting in the effort) these days rather than because they are better investment.

ALSO - I think Propellerhead need to improve their customer product review process - allowing people to write a review not just press a number between 1 and 5. REs are rarely reviewed by the music press and so this reverts me to sites like Reasontalk where I read people's commentary - but that comes with a lot of hot air and slanted opinions (yes - the music press have slants, but less contrived). Whereas - I can get in-depth reviews (from many angles) with VST products.
Maybe i misunderstood something here, but i hear "RE are average per se" and "VST are better per se". This discussion is just wrong. I have Echo Boy and it sounds amazing, but is buggy and lacks a very important feature for me, that The Echo has. Just to give an example. Yesterday i drove VK-2's FM with sick waves coming from eXpanse created with an editor and dude, that was an insane sound. Ran on 88khz on highest quality settings pretty smooth. This can NOT be done with VSTs or at least most devs do not support audio in. On the other side i have a CS-80 clone as a VST, that produces so incredible smooth sound, that makes me start crying...

There are plenty of VSTs out there, that just suck, sound awful, were just made to grab your email or for marketing. But there are also some in RE world, that are made for marketing, and also pleases some users.

What i want to say is, please leave the "VST" or "RE" just off the weighting, if a device is good or bad. And ofc RE dev has to compete with VST devs, but also the other way around.
Reason12, Win10

danc
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17 May 2018

Loque wrote:
17 May 2018
Maybe i misunderstood something here, but i hear "RE are average per se" and "VST are better per se". This discussion is just wrong.

There are plenty of VSTs out there, that just suck, sound awful, were just made to grab your email or for marketing. But there are also some in RE world, that are made for marketing, and also pleases some users.
I tried to be really careful in NOT saying (or inferring) that VST is better than RE. I don't think they are.

My main point is that in the large ocean of totally rubbish VSTs there are a heck of a lot of really amazing tools to choose from. Whereas, in the small swimming pool of REs, I am really struggling to find even one tool that I want/need or even tempted to demo. Everything new just seems to be a not-very-good derivative of something that's better within the VST world. It's a bit like your parents buying you an Oric Atmos, when you really wanted the Spectrum or C64... and you are stuck with a handful of really shockingly crap games to choose from.

I want to encourage RE developers to think a little more left-field and be more adventurous, and also strive towards high quality.... not just knock out yet another boring, not useful, RE.
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normen
Posts: 3431
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

17 May 2018

Loque wrote:
17 May 2018
Sound wise? Maybe not, well, not at all.
Well that is kind of my point. I didn't say this was good or bad. It's "bad" if you're a scrooge and rather build your own house than pay somebody to do it. It's "good" if you just want to be able to put out amount X of money and be done with it - no matter if it's "just" something you could do otherwise. You can also do a pizza but you still buy a slice every now and then.

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

17 May 2018

normen wrote:
17 May 2018
Loque wrote:
17 May 2018
Sound wise? Maybe not, well, not at all.
Well that is kind of my point. I didn't say this was good or bad. It's "bad" if you're a scrooge and rather build your own house than pay somebody to do it. It's "good" if you just want to be able to put out amount X of money and be done with it - no matter if it's "just" something you could do otherwise. You can also do a pizza but you still buy a slice every now and then.
A pizza costs here between 7-14€, the price of some RE on sale. I can bake my own pizza, costs 1€, but i am too lazy to wait 1-2h until everything is done. A frozen pizza sucks.

Now i am hungry. Thx man :x ;)
Reason12, Win10

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Kenni
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17 May 2018

Loque wrote:
17 May 2018
Now i am hungry. Thx man :x ;)
Bleh, me too. :(
Kenni Andruszkow
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