How do I know an RE isn't just some advanced combinator of stock / sdk devices?

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Zac
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16 May 2018

Especially since the latest IDT sdk seems to be blossoming lots of 'basic' fx from previously much less prolific devs and let's face it, ones whose prior REs hardly inspired much applause.

If it isnt like i suspect and certain devs have suddenly been inspired or learned new skills then I'll happily recind my suspicions.

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esselfortium
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16 May 2018

Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
Sarah Mancuso
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Oquasec
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16 May 2018

All the reason plugins run on the same codebases so I wouldn't be surprised.
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fieldframe
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16 May 2018

esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
I'd say it's a little more like UJam made a third-party distortion effect, but only the engine for it and not an actual RE device. So IDT devs are using these UJam engines in various ways to make new effect REs.

The UJam effects are pretty good, so naturally these new Gorilla Engine REs tend to sound good, albeit not unique. People have long sold commercial refills with Combinators, and software with third-party engines, so I don't see anything unusual about it here.

(Also, I know some forum users get oddly touchy about the NDA, so just a reminder that this information is publicly available here: https://www.propellerheads.se/developers)

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esselfortium
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16 May 2018

fieldframe wrote:
16 May 2018
esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
I'd say it's a little more like UJam made a third-party distortion effect, but only the engine for it and not an actual RE device. So IDT devs are using these UJam engines in various ways to make new effect REs.

The UJam effects are pretty good, so naturally these new Gorilla Engine REs tend to sound good, albeit not unique. People have long sold commercial refills with Combinators, and software with third-party engines, so I don't see anything unusual about it here.

(Also, I know some forum users get oddly touchy about the NDA, so just a reminder that this information is publicly available here: https://www.propellerheads.se/developers)
This is true, but I would be pretty irritated if I bought a "super cool advanced vocoder effect refill" and underneath the custom faceplate there was just a default BV512 inside. You absolutely can build something new and valuable by combining simple effects in a creative way (Audiomatic and Synchronous are good and useful examples of this), but it's misleading and deceptive to just bundle a single pre-made effect and promote it as though you've created something.

It's also a very shortsighted business plan and potentially harmful to the RE market, because people are going to catch on sooner or later and start being very suspicious that "new" effects are actually the same thing they've already bought from three other developers.
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Loque
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16 May 2018

Good chance to train your ears...
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guitfnky
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16 May 2018

does it sound good? does it do something a stock device or other RE doesn't? is it worth the cost to you? if so, it doesn't matter. if not, move along.

being critical of a developer for using the tools they have available makes little sense. simply don't buy the products you don't want.
I write good music for good people

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Zac
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16 May 2018

esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
Funny you should mention Scream4. When that tape saturation turned up i wondered how much research and modelling might have gone into it. I'd be interested to know. I was just hoping it wasn't distortion with a high end shelf ;)

Don't get me wrong, since entering the world of vsts, I'm not saying this is in anyway new or unique to REs.

It's just my opinion that the wheat and chaff of rack extensions is only growing in terms of separation.

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Zac
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16 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
16 May 2018
does it sound good? does it do something a stock device or other RE doesn't? is it worth the cost to you? if so, it doesn't matter. if not, move along.

being critical of a developer for using the tools they have available makes little sense. simply don't buy the products you don't want.
Can't i discuss my thoughts as i move along?

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adfielding
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
Funny you should mention Scream4. When that tape saturation turned up i wondered how much research and modelling might have gone into it. I'd be interested to know. I was just hoping it wasn't distortion with a high end shelf ;)
tbf Scream4 came out in, what, 2003? One thing's for sure - it was all original code. It might be old but I still get plenty of use out of it :)

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Zac
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16 May 2018

adfielding wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
Funny you should mention Scream4. When that tape saturation turned up i wondered how much research and modelling might have gone into it. I'd be interested to know. I was just hoping it wasn't distortion with a high end shelf ;)
tbf Scream4 came out in, what, 2003? One thing's for sure - it was all original code. It might be old but I still get plenty of use out of it :)
Me too. You've misunderstood me Adam. There was a recent tape sat RE.. i was talking about that and how IMO it could just be scream4 and some eq... how am i to know now these fx are coming from the latest sdk are unaltered rather than the inspired and well deserved love i have for previous fx? I love refills but if i want stock combinators i would be buying them. Not unknowingly under the skin of a rack extension.

I feel quite strongly about this. Ive been here since late 2001. I know some things.

My niece is only 9. How will she know what's good and what's derivative crap 5 years from now? Prices won't help looking at the way things are going.

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moneykube
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16 May 2018

look closer
Screen Shot 2018-05-16 at 12.43.50 PM.png
Screen Shot 2018-05-16 at 12.43.50 PM.png (202.35 KiB) Viewed 3811 times
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moneykube
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16 May 2018

https://soundcloud.com/moneykube-qube/s ... d-playlist
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Socram
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16 May 2018

There's a lot of totally incorrect assumptions in here, so I'll attempt to clear the air without violating NDA.
esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
This is wrong, RE devs have no access to any sort of native FX (for example Scream) that they can just tap into, or "trick" you into buying. This repeated notion that an RE dev can "hide native functionality from a combinator" in an RE is not how rack extension development works, at all.
Oquasec wrote:
16 May 2018
All the reason plugins run on the same codebases so I wouldn't be surprised.
While it is true that all RE's naturally run on the same SDK, this is the equivalent of saying all video games made with the same engine are basically the same game, it is totally wrong and uninformed. Some stuff is standardized, like how to take audio input from a jack on the back, but if you think RE dev's are all using the exact same code or sharing implementations you'd be wrong.

You guys are working yourselves up over something that is impossible to do, I REPEAT no Rack Extension Effect devices are able to use existing Reason functionality in their code, and RE's are not built from combinators like you guys seem to think they are. Don't always assume the worst of people, a lot of RE devs are like myself, just regular Reason users who wanted to try coding some devices to make their own life, and other's, easier. For most devs regardless of size, there isn't some grand conspiracy to rip you guys off.
Last edited by Socram on 16 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.
Static Cling - Rack Extension Developer of Tome, Index, Optic, Chord Detector, Delta, and AutoLatch.
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Loque
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16 May 2018

Considering FX in general, how many of the fx you use are based on the same code? There are plenty of OSS available that you will find in various fx re-implementation, even in RE format. I always was wondering if some ppl know, that their software is sold or maybe its the same person behind it...i dont know...
Reason12, Win10

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esselfortium
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16 May 2018

Socram: You’re misunderstanding me. (I also have access to the SDK and know what’s in it.) “Selling a combinator with a Scream 4 inside” was an analogy, I’m aware that the stock effects in IDT are different. Those stock features do exist, though, not in the main RE SDK but in IDT. All of the recent turn2on and Softphonics releases are low-effort rebrandings of simple individual IDT effects. Since you’re a developer, you can grab the IDT documentation and confirm this for yourself if you don’t believe me.
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nickb523
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
Especially since the latest IDT sdk seems to be blossoming lots of 'basic' fx from previously much less prolific devs and let's face it, ones whose prior REs hardly inspired much applause.

If it isnt like i suspect and certain devs have suddenly been inspired or learned new skills then I'll happily recind my suspicions.
I would suggest getting registered as a Dev and check out the new tools for yourself.

It's really not as easy as you are thinking here. Sure, there is usage of the stock GE FX, but actually bringing that to market as a product is much more difficult than you are envisaging. Put it this way - I'm handy with code (PHP, LUA and CSS) and i'm really struggling with it. What is provided for you to work with is full on BARE-BONES... TBH, i wish it was more like a combi with a skin that was in a separate section of the shop labelled "powered by *whoever*" on the GUI, but alas, it's quite a bit more difficult than that.

Unfortunately, i can't really go as deep as i'd like into this due to NDA. You should get registered and check it out yourself. ;)

Nick :)

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Zac
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16 May 2018

Socram wrote:
16 May 2018
There's a lot of totally incorrect assumptions in here, so I'll attempt to clear the air without violating NDA.
esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
Your suspicions are correct. There are indeed several developers who are doing the equivalent of selling you a Combinator with a default Scream4 patch in it.
This is wrong, RE devs have no access to any sort of native FX (for example Scream) that they can just tap into, or "trick" you into buying. This repeated notion that an RE dev can "hide native functionality from a combinator" in an RE is not how rack extension development works, at all.
Oquasec wrote:
16 May 2018
All the reason plugins run on the same codebases so I wouldn't be surprised.
While it is true that all RE's naturally run on the same SDK, this is the equivalent of saying all video games made with the same engine are basically the same game, it is totally wrong and uninformed. Some stuff is standardized, like how to take audio input from a jack on the back, but if you think RE dev's are all using the exact same code or sharing implementations you'd be wrong.

You guys are working yourselves up over something that is impossible to do, I REPEAT no Rack Extension Effect devices are able to use existing Reason functionality in their code, and RE's are not built from combinators like you guys seem to think they are.

I haven't even made an effect RE release yet, so I have no reason to deceive you guys on this, don't always assume the worst of people, a lot of RE devs are like myself, just regular Reason users who wanted to try coding some devices to make their own life, and other's, easier. For most devs regardless of size, there isn't some grand conspiracy to rip you guys off.
Good to know. So all these new fx are gorilla based? Same deception IMO. If that's true?

One developer has put out 8+ fx in a month or so. If I'm wrong that they aren't just putting small twists on devices available in the new idt sdk then I'm sorry. As i said in my 1st post.

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Socram
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16 May 2018

Loque wrote:
16 May 2018
Considering FX in general, how many of the fx you use are based on the same code? There are plenty of OSS available that you will find in various fx re-implementation, even in RE format. I always was wondering if some ppl know, that their software is sold or maybe its the same person behind it...i dont know...
This is a slightly different question. Yes, many FX (delays, reverbs, distortions, etc) implementations have open source code that you can consult or even copy directly depending on the license. Software development in general discourages re-inventing the wheel, so you can assume that some devices, RE or VST, at least started by looking at some open source code. However there are plenty of ways to take an open source effect and make it more flexibile or powerful with supporting features, improve on the algorithm, etc. There is also still the specific RE work to do, making it work with Reason, setting up CV, etc.

That being said, if you see 2 identical delay units with similar controls and end up buying both without realizing they do more or less the exact same thing, I think that's more on the consumer than the seller.
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Good to know. So all these new fx are gorilla based? Same deception IMO. If that's true?

One developer has put out 8+ fx in a month or so. If I'm wrong that they aren't just putting small twists on devices available in the new idt sdk then I'm sorry. As i said in my 1st post.
The Gorilla Engine stuff is quite new (10.1), and I know the dev in particular that you're accusing of this has been putting out devices since before its release.
Static Cling - Rack Extension Developer of Tome, Index, Optic, Chord Detector, Delta, and AutoLatch.
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fieldframe
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16 May 2018

esselfortium wrote:
16 May 2018
fieldframe wrote:
16 May 2018


I'd say it's a little more like UJam made a third-party distortion effect, but only the engine for it and not an actual RE device. So IDT devs are using these UJam engines in various ways to make new effect REs.

The UJam effects are pretty good, so naturally these new Gorilla Engine REs tend to sound good, albeit not unique. People have long sold commercial refills with Combinators, and software with third-party engines, so I don't see anything unusual about it here.

(Also, I know some forum users get oddly touchy about the NDA, so just a reminder that this information is publicly available here: https://www.propellerheads.se/developers)
This is true, but I would be pretty irritated if I bought a "super cool advanced vocoder effect refill" and underneath the custom faceplate there was just a default BV512 inside. You absolutely can build something new and valuable by combining simple effects in a creative way (Audiomatic and Synchronous are good and useful examples of this), but it's misleading and deceptive to just bundle a single pre-made effect and promote it as though you've created something.

It's also a very shortsighted business plan and potentially harmful to the RE market, because people are going to catch on sooner or later and start being very suspicious that "new" effects are actually the same thing they've already bought from three other developers.
I don't think the BV512 example is really a problem since the store offers trials. If it sounds like a default BV512 when you try it, now you know you don't need to buy it!

I do agree, however, that this has a real potential downside to the future of the RE market. If there's a flood of distortion devices that all use the same Gorilla Engine distortion, for example, will new customers start to assume all RE distortions sound the same and never try Kuassa's amp sims?

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Zac
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16 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
Especially since the latest IDT sdk seems to be blossoming lots of 'basic' fx from previously much less prolific devs and let's face it, ones whose prior REs hardly inspired much applause.

If it isnt like i suspect and certain devs have suddenly been inspired or learned new skills then I'll happily recind my suspicions.
I would suggest getting registered as a Dev and check out the new tools for yourself.

It's really not as easy as you are thinking here. Sure, there is usage of the stock GE FX, but actually bringing that to market as a product is much more difficult than you are envisaging. Put it this way - I'm handy with code (PHP, LUA and CSS) and i'm really struggling with it. What is provided for you to work with is full on BARE-BONES... TBH, i wish it was more like a combi with a skin that was in a separate section of the shop labelled "powered by *whoever*" on the GUI, but alas, it's quite a bit more difficult than that.

Unfortunately, i can't really go as deep as i'd like into this due to NDA. You should get registered and check it out yourself. ;)

Nick :)
Hmm. I won't answer this outright because who knows what the future holds if i can eventually persuade my friend his evenings won't be wasted. The latest dross doesn't help my argument to his higher creative being.

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adfielding
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018
adfielding wrote:
16 May 2018


tbf Scream4 came out in, what, 2003? One thing's for sure - it was all original code. It might be old but I still get plenty of use out of it :)
Me too. You've misunderstood me Adam. There was a recent tape sat RE.. i was talking about that and how IMO it could just be scream4 and some eq... how am i to know now these fx are coming from the latest sdk are unaltered rather than the inspired and well deserved love i have for previous fx? I love refills but if i want stock combinators i would be buying them. Not unknowingly under the skin of a rack extension.

I feel quite strongly about this. Ive been here since late 2001. I know some things.

My niece is only 9. How will she know what's good and what's derivative crap 5 years from now? Prices won't help looking at the way things are going.
Ahh, sorry - my misunderstanding! Well, from the looks of things I guess there’s a lot of stuff that needs airing, and from where I’m standing it’s not good for the RE platform. This whole thread gets grimmer the more I read so I’m going to bow out and see where it leads.

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nickb523
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Hmm. I won't answer this outright because who knows what the future holds if i can eventually persuade my friend his evenings won't be wasted. The latest dross doesn't help my argument to his higher creative being.
A lot of 'real' devices (both VST and RE) are adapted from components found here - http://www.musicdsp.org/archive.php

Also a lot of available products (again both VST and RE) can be adapted from - http://www.synthedit.com/

iPhones contain Samsung screens.

What's the difference? ;)

Nick

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Zac
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16 May 2018

nickb523 wrote:
16 May 2018
Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Hmm. I won't answer this outright because who knows what the future holds if i can eventually persuade my friend his evenings won't be wasted. The latest dross doesn't help my argument to his higher creative being.
A lot of 'real' devices (both VST and RE) are adapted from components found here - http://www.musicdsp.org/archive.php

Also a lot of available products (again both VST and RE) can be adapted from - http://www.synthedit.com/

iPhones contain Samsung screens.

What's the difference? ;)

Nick
Ahh i give up.

Innovation is what i want. Something new. I don't want to buy a new wheel for my bicycle called the cyclotron just to find it's the same as my old wheel.

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nickb523
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16 May 2018

Zac wrote:
16 May 2018

Ahh i give up.

Innovation is what i want. Something new. I don't want to buy a new wheel for my bicycle called the cyclotron just to find it's the same as my old wheel.
Well that is an age old problem with the market in general. It's also what makes truely innovative Devs stand out.

Same shit different day man.

Vote with your wallet! :)

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