Players - a way to have Live's Clip Launcher?

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Oquasec
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Post 23 May 2018

polymodular & thors/kongs would give this result
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QVprod
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
EdGrip wrote:
23 May 2018
I noticed that in the feature requests thread that Presonus linked to on Twitter the other day, people were asking for a Live-style clip launcher for Studio One.

It seems there's lots of demand for freer, non-linear ways of arranging and performing with DAWs. All the big players seem content to leave it to Live and its close cousin Bitwig to meet that huge demand. The more I think about it the more I wonder why everyone isn't trying their spin on the jam-able DAW.
I think Reason especially would lend itself to exploring a less linear way of running the rack.
Exactly! Seeing how 90%+ of music posted on FB groups is trap/hip-hop and EDM, it would really be useful as those styles are heavily loop-based.
The thing is even though those styles are loop based, most music (especially pop music) is, the individuals creating the music aren’t necessarily interested in a clip based workflow. I’d wager the desire for that workflow is relatively niche outside of Ableton Live and Bitwig users whereas major DAWs focus on a hybrid between production and audio engineering tasks - which Live and Bitwig are arguably weaker at.

The downside of doing this wit RE though is the setup involved is time consuming compared to the workflow being baked into the design of Live and Bitwig.

EdGrip
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Post 23 May 2018

There's no reason a DAW need sacrifice linear sequencer strength for a non-linear mode, though.

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

chrischrischris wrote:
23 May 2018
Hi,

I will be honest I haven't read this post in full so I might be barking up the wrong tree as I don't exactly know how Live works but this post from a while ago is showing what You can do at the moment with available RE's and Native Devices but I would love a simpler version with Sample Loading RE's And Players.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7500943&p=329906#p329906

There is a guy further down the post who puts My Ideas into better words!

Chris
Yes, yours was a similar idea, but much more limited by the necessity of using ReDrums.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

Oquasec wrote:
23 May 2018
polymodular & thors/kongs would give this result
I don't think you get the idea. Can you post an example for 3 simple tracks?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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Oquasec
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Post 23 May 2018

Not sure. It would consist of hooking the gate outs or something to a poly modular or 4 spiders and having octo rex modules wired to the inputs of the audio spiders.
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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

EdGrip wrote:
23 May 2018
There's no reason a DAW need sacrifice linear sequencer strength for a non-linear mode, though.
How implementing this would sacrifice anything? It's just another workflow option - you'd still create Sequencer tracks for bass, drums, pads, synths, vocals, etc., add and wire devices in the Rack, mix & master in SSL; but instead of triggering the notes, drums and samples from the linear sequencer, you'd have those clips stored in sequencer REs (one per track) that would be triggered by clip launcher RE, while the sequencer REs would be connected to tracks via Gate & Note CVs and control CVs (to instrument parameters, insert effects, etc.). If SDK would allow it, you could even record your performance in the Sequencer.
Last edited by antic604 on 23 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

Oquasec wrote:
23 May 2018
Not sure. It would consist of hooking the gate outs or something to a poly modular or 4 spiders and having octo rex modules wired to the inputs of the audio spiders.
But it would only play samples. I'm talking about sequencing actual MIDI clips as well. And automation via control CVs attached to those clips. Your idea would require to first create those samples (for example by bouncing sequencer MIDI clips). Mine attempts to circumvent the sequencer altogether, if one would wish to work that way :)
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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Oquasec
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
Oquasec wrote:
23 May 2018
Not sure. It would consist of hooking the gate outs or something to a poly modular or 4 spiders and having octo rex modules wired to the inputs of the audio spiders.
But it would only play samples. I'm talking about sequencing actual MIDI clips as well. And automation via control CVs attached to those clips. Your idea would require to first create those samples (for example by bouncing sequencer MIDI clips). Mine attempts to circumvent the sequencer altogether, if one would wish to work that way :)
the only way you will be clip launching midi in reason is redrum, rpg-8 & matrix my dude.
Till then you need fl, live, reaper or bitwig for that.
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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
The thing is even though those styles are loop based, most music (especially pop music) is, the individuals creating the music aren’t necessarily interested in a clip based workflow. I’d wager the desire for that workflow is relatively niche outside of Ableton Live and Bitwig users whereas major DAWs focus on a hybrid between production and audio engineering tasks - which Live and Bitwig are arguably weaker at.

The downside of doing this wit RE though is the setup involved is time consuming compared to the workflow being baked into the design of Live and Bitwig.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Obviously music created using just Push in Live will be much less complex and more "blocky" than hand-painted in sequencer, BUT it has the benefit of being created in an artistic flow, is more organic and "in the moment" because it's played live. While performing, you can "record" all your MIDI, samples & automation to the linear sequencer for further editing, refinement, adding of bells & whistles, fancy transitions, etc. It's actually very similar concept to multitrack band or orchestra recording, when you capture raw realtime performance and then fix it and improve it on the timeline.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

Oquasec wrote:
23 May 2018
the only way you will be clip launching midi in reason is redrum, rpg-8 & matrix my dude.
Till then you need fl, live, reaper or bitwig for that.
You're wrong. Any sequencer in Reason - Matrix, Redrum, Thor, new Drum Sequencer, Korde RE, Propulsion RE, Kompulsion RE, etc. - is already launching MIDI clips (stored in their memory as patterns) either in response by manual trigger from the user or using pattern clips in sequencer. My idea is to add another option, a launcher RE that would do this - for many sequencer REs, driving many tracks: instruments & effects - in response to user pushing its buttons.

Sorry for being blunt, but how much do you know about Live / Bitwig's clip launchers? Because it seems like I'm trying to explain space exploration to indiginous tribe in Amazon jungle ;) :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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QVprod
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
The thing is even though those styles are loop based, most music (especially pop music) is, the individuals creating the music aren’t necessarily interested in a clip based workflow. I’d wager the desire for that workflow is relatively niche outside of Ableton Live and Bitwig users whereas major DAWs focus on a hybrid between production and audio engineering tasks - which Live and Bitwig are arguably weaker at.

The downside of doing this wit RE though is the setup involved is time consuming compared to the workflow being baked into the design of Live and Bitwig.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Obviously music created using just Push in Live will be much less complex and more "blocky" than hand-painted in sequencer, BUT it has the benefit of being created in an artistic flow, is more organic and "in the moment" because it's played live. While performing, you can "record" all your MIDI, samples & automation to the linear sequencer for further editing, refinement, adding of bells & whistles, fancy transitions, etc. It's actually very similar concept to multitrack band or orchestra recording, when you capture raw realtime performance and then fix it and improve it on the timeline.
My response was to you stating that EDM and Trap producers would benefit from a clip based workflow. I essentially said that just because music is loop based doesn’t mean a clip based workflow has an advantage. I’m aware of how a clip based workflow works as I had to learn Ableton Live in college. Whether you label that as “more organic” is up to the individual.

What I labeled as complex is the setup that would be required to set this kind of workflow up using players (even ones designed for this) in comparison to Live and Bitwig being built around that functionality.

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
What I labeled as complex is the setup that would be required to set this kind of workflow up using players (even ones designed for this) in comparison to Live and Bitwig being built around that functionality.
Oh, I agree but most things in Reason are more complex than in Live or Bitwig! Doing layered instruments, splitting effects to work in parallel, modulating things with external LFOs, etc. All this takes more time in Reason. Even more so, if you then want to make changes to the order of devices, their routing, etc. Sure, it looks better and is more fun, but is more elaborate nonetheless :)

And it would be optional - no one would need to use launcher RE and sequencer REs if they didn't wanted, just like many people never touch clip launchers in Live / Bitwig.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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QVprod
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
What I labeled as complex is the setup that would be required to set this kind of workflow up using players (even ones designed for this) in comparison to Live and Bitwig being built around that functionality.
Oh, I agree but most things in Reason are more complex than in Live or Bitwig! Doing layered instruments, splitting effects to work in parallel, modulating things with external LFOs, etc. All this takes more time in Reason. Even more so, if you then want to make changes to the order of devices, their routing, etc. Sure, it looks better and is more fun, but is more elaborate nonetheless :)

And it would be optional - no one would need to use launcher RE and sequencer REs if they didn't wanted, just like many people never touch clip launchers in Live / Bitwig.
Actually it’s about the same for layering instruments, provided you start out with a combinator just the same as you would start out with an instrument rack ( I think that’s what it’s called in Live). There’s actually quite al lot you can do in Reason without manually routing cables, and that includes changing routing order. I’ve never dealt with external LFOs in Live but compared to other DAWs, Reason seems to be easier to me.

With that in mind the complexity of setting clip launching up in comparison using RE is on a differering level than those things that were previously mentioned. I never said it shouldn’t be done, simply listed the caveat. Ideally that kind of functionality should be built into a program, a la Bitwig and Live, if it’s going to be implemented, but seeing as Reason already has 3 different windows, it’s probably unlikely to happen.

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
but seeing as Reason already has 3 different windows, it’s probably unlikely to happen.
My idea would circumvent the need for yet another window, by placing the launcher RE and sequencer REs in the Rack, which would fit right in into Reason's paradigm.

I hope some dev picks this up.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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QVprod
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
but seeing as Reason already has 3 different windows, it’s probably unlikely to happen.
My idea would circumvent the need for yet another window, by placing the launcher RE and sequencer REs in the Rack, which would fit right in into Reason's paradigm.

I hope some dev picks this up.
Yeah that much is true, just not as intuitive as an actual clip view imho. But for those who don't mind that being hosted in the rack and doing the necessary cabling, maybe some developer will feel there's enough interest to build the needed devices. I did mention JammeR earlier in the thread, which was the first attempt at a clip workflow though it's limited to rex files. Something similar to that plus a drum sequencer like player would pretty much be all that's needed.

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raccoonboy
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Post 24 May 2018

Yeah, so what Props really need to do is:

a) Allow REs the option to have patterns (I believe it is possible now with players, but REs should have them too).
b) Make it possible to make 'pattern lanes' within a Player, you don't need to see them as pattern lanes, but the Player would play them as such and can trigger them any way.

The combinator does allow pattern changes, so you could maybe have a player that can do up to 4 devices via CV into combi, but it'd be messy.

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Oquasec
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Post 24 May 2018

I was very pleased when I moved from 5 to 8 having everything being either one window only or multiple windows.
Was very useful
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Anything works.

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antic604
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Post 24 May 2018

Oquasec wrote:
24 May 2018
I was very pleased when I moved from 5 to 8 having everything being either one window only or multiple windows.
Was very useful
And this is relevant how?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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Oquasec
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Post 24 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018
antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018


I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Obviously music created using just Push in Live will be much less complex and more "blocky" than hand-painted in sequencer, BUT it has the benefit of being created in an artistic flow, is more organic and "in the moment" because it's played live. While performing, you can "record" all your MIDI, samples & automation to the linear sequencer for further editing, refinement, adding of bells & whistles, fancy transitions, etc. It's actually very similar concept to multitrack band or orchestra recording, when you capture raw realtime performance and then fix it and improve it on the timeline.
My response was to you stating that EDM and Trap producers would benefit from a clip based workflow. I essentially said that just because music is loop based doesn’t mean a clip based workflow has an advantage. I’m aware of how a clip based workflow works as I had to learn Ableton Live in college. Whether you label that as “more organic” is up to the individual.

What I labeled as complex is the setup that would be required to set this kind of workflow up using players (even ones designed for this) in comparison to Live and Bitwig being built around that functionality.
For edm or something, clips or patterns are PERFECT. They might get in the way a little bit when doing something that is natural Linear but for something like edm it was always easier to just load up either fl, a redrum, a matrix and make patterns that way :P That new free drum sequencer is another way and even functions the same as fl's.
Producer/Sound Designer.
Anything works.

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QVprod
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Post 24 May 2018

Oquasec wrote:
24 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
23 May 2018


My response was to you stating that EDM and Trap producers would benefit from a clip based workflow. I essentially said that just because music is loop based doesn’t mean a clip based workflow has an advantage. I’m aware of how a clip based workflow works as I had to learn Ableton Live in college. Whether you label that as “more organic” is up to the individual.

What I labeled as complex is the setup that would be required to set this kind of workflow up using players (even ones designed for this) in comparison to Live and Bitwig being built around that functionality.
For edm or something, clips or patterns are PERFECT. They might get in the way a little bit when doing something that is natural Linear but for something like edm it was always easier to just load up either fl, a redrum, a matrix and make patterns that way :P That new free drum sequencer is another way and even functions the same as fl's.
Again that depends on the individual.workflow for people may be different no matter what genre they create.

djadalaide
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Post 24 May 2018

I've been using the new propellerhead drum sequencer player to trigger samples and play notes, you can stack them if you want to layer different sequences.

Between this and octorex, i'm covered for live usage.

The drum sequencer even can work with layers, you just set up 16 notes then change the sequence mode to step within layers.

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antic604
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Post 24 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
24 May 2018
Oquasec wrote:
24 May 2018


For edm or something, clips or patterns are PERFECT. They might get in the way a little bit when doing something that is natural Linear but for something like edm it was always easier to just load up either fl, a redrum, a matrix and make patterns that way :P That new free drum sequencer is another way and even functions the same as fl's.
Again that depends on the individual.workflow for people may be different no matter what genre they create.
Sure, but the individual's workflow could be influenced and shaped by the tools they use, no? If one is doing music in linear DAW - Reason, Cubase, Studio One, etc. - then obviously their workflow will not be clip launcher-based. The idea here is to give them such an option to try out, without having to go to other DAW and at the risk they'll find out that the grass is indeed greener on the other side ;) :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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antic604
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Post 24 May 2018

djadalaide wrote:
24 May 2018
I've been using the new propellerhead drum sequencer player to trigger samples and play notes, you can stack them if you want to layer different sequences.

Between this and octorex, i'm covered for live usage.

The drum sequencer even can work with layers, you just set up 16 notes then change the sequence mode to step within layers.
And how would you go about launching & stopping all those layered Drum Sequencers? Can you click Play on 8 of them simultaneously? Can you change the pattern that's playing in a way that it wait until another bar to start? Can you define follow actions, eg. that if pattern P1 end it automatically goes to play P2 or a random pattern from P1-P8 range? Etc. and so on. I'm happy that your needs are covered, but maybe you don't realise you could do so much more - and easier - had you known how other DAWs handle such scenarios.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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QVprod
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Post 24 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
24 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
24 May 2018


Again that depends on the individual.workflow for people may be different no matter what genre they create.
Sure, but the individual's workflow could be influenced and shaped by the tools they use, no? If one is doing music in linear DAW - Reason, Cubase, Studio One, etc. - then obviously their workflow will not be clip launcher-based. The idea here is to give them such an option to try out, without having to go to other DAW and at the risk they'll find out that the grass is indeed greener on the other side ;) :D
Again depends on the user. I've used Ableton. Love it for launching loops or stems for a band to play along to in a live performance situation. In production, the workflow of recording to clips makes zero sense to me. But for someone else that workflow seems 'more organic' as you mentioned. In my case it had zero influence, where as in yours it gave you a preference for it. If Reason needs a clip based workflow to prevent a user from moving to Ableton and abandoning Reason, then perhaps the grass really was greener on the other side. ;) . As previously mentioned though, I'm not speaking against the creation of said REs, but I'd personally prefer the whole shebang than a subset of the functionality which would include independent time signatures and bpm.

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