Players - a way to have Live's Clip Launcher?

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

So - while stuck in a traffic to work :D - I've been thinking that a talented dev could make a new RE Players 'ecosystem', that'd include 3 devices:
- a drum sequencer, like the new one from Props or similar,
- a note sequencer, like Matrix or similar,
- each of the above would store several (ideally more than just 8) unique patterns, that *could* share the length, measure, tempo, playback direction, etc. but could also be different; one thing that'd unite them would be that all those patterns drive the same device,
- each of the above would connect via note CV/Gate outs and few (8?) CV outs to devices - synths, samplers, drum machines, effects - we already have and would 'effectively replace' the linear sequencer in triggering notes, drums, samples, modulating effects or parameters via CV,
- a matrix launcher, where each vertical column would be connected to one of the above sequencers and each clip in that column would launch specified pattern in sequencer; you could also launch whole horizontal row of clips from different columns (instruments) at once, which would be equivalent to Live's scene launching,

This way, one could control such matrix launcher via controller like Push 1/2, Launchpad or Maschine JAM, via touch on a touch-screen device if the RE was made big enough and one could record the outcome of this "jam" to the sequencer obviously.

A bit like Retouch Control's Grid64g/n REs, but taken a (few) step(s) further...

Any takers? I'll take 10% for the idea ;) :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

Considering the overwhelming feedback to the topic, I've made a graph making it easier to understand the above:


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Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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electrofux
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Post 09 May 2018

I am with you and was dreaming about it after the announcement of 10.1 But as it turned out the players have no means of firing off patterns other than hitting play by hand. There is no cv in to start playback and there is no combinator item and no remote item.

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

electrofux wrote:
09 May 2018
I am with you and was dreaming about it after the announcement of 10.1 But as it turned out the players have no means of firing off patterns other than hitting play by hand. There is no cv in to start playback and there is no combinator item and no remote item.
Well, those things are absent from what we see in the shop, but are you certain they're also not there in the SDK? Or that devs cannot lobby to have them implemented? I see no reason why Props could be against such thing, because it opens Reason to completely new pool of users that grew on Live's Session View and don't want to live on linear sequencers... If I only had e-mail address to the investor they acquired last year ;) :D
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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fieldframe
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Post 09 May 2018

We are on the same wavelength: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7506130
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electrofux
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Post 09 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
09 May 2018
electrofux wrote:
09 May 2018
I am with you and was dreaming about it after the announcement of 10.1 But as it turned out the players have no means of firing off patterns other than hitting play by hand. There is no cv in to start playback and there is no combinator item and no remote item.
Well, those things are absent from what we see in the shop, but are you certain they're also not there in the SDK? Or that devs cannot lobby to have them implemented? I see no reason why Props could be against such thing, because it opens Reason to completely new pool of users that grew on Live's Session View and don't want to live on linear sequencers... If I only had e-mail address to the investor they acquired last year ;) :D
I know that the play and record buttons have been a problem for the sdk for whatever Reason for quite some time now.
A Clip lauchner and grid is really really needed though.

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

fieldframe wrote:
09 May 2018
We are on the same wavelength: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7506130
Indeed! :)
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

electrofux wrote:
09 May 2018
I know that the play and record buttons have been a problem for the sdk for whatever Reason for quite some time now.
That's my point though - maybe it's the thing of the past with the updated SDK? I mean it's a software problem, which can be solved with few (hundred) lines of code. If Reason can trigger patterns by numbered blocks painted in on the track, then the external trigger mechanism is already there...
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buddard
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Post 09 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
09 May 2018
electrofux wrote:
09 May 2018
I know that the play and record buttons have been a problem for the sdk for whatever Reason for quite some time now.
That's my point though - maybe it's the thing of the past with the updated SDK? I mean it's a software problem, which can be solved with few (hundred) lines of code. If Reason can trigger patterns by numbered blocks painted in on the track, then the external trigger mechanism is already there...
There shouldn't be a problem triggering something to play via CV or automation, it's something that should be completely solvable by the RE developers themselves without any SDK updates.

Recording on the other hand is a completely different problem that's limited by fundamental architectural properties of the RE format. So I don't think that's going to be solved anytime soon. But who knows?

electrofux
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Post 09 May 2018

buddard wrote:
09 May 2018
antic604 wrote:
09 May 2018


That's my point though - maybe it's the thing of the past with the updated SDK? I mean it's a software problem, which can be solved with few (hundred) lines of code. If Reason can trigger patterns by numbered blocks painted in on the track, then the external trigger mechanism is already there...
There shouldn't be a problem triggering something to play via CV or automation, it's something that should be completely solvable by the RE developers themselves without any SDK updates.

Recording on the other hand is a completely different problem that's limited by fundamental architectural properties of the RE format. So I don't think that's going to be solved anytime soon. But who knows?
Hmm, so triggering pattern should be out of the way IF we get trigger inputs for the different patterns. Then of course a polyphonic clip recorder would be needed (record button issue though). And the Matrix to fire of individual clips and scenes. One problem though is wiring everything up which is definitly not as handson as in Live and Bitwig. But i could live with it. And looking at current Players the restriction to 8 patterns.

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antic604
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Post 09 May 2018

buddard wrote:
09 May 2018
Recording on the other hand is a completely different problem that's limited by fundamental architectural properties of the RE format. So I don't think that's going to be solved anytime soon. But who knows?
I'm probably not understanding, but I thought new Drum Sequencer has a Record button, so it apparently can record user playing the notes / drum pads of the device its attached to? Which would be exactly what Live / Bitwig do when recording clips to the Session View / Clip Launcher. I don't know if dumping those pattern changes to the Reason's main linear sequencer is possible, though (if that's what you're referring to)?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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QVprod
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Post 09 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
09 May 2018
buddard wrote:
09 May 2018
Recording on the other hand is a completely different problem that's limited by fundamental architectural properties of the RE format. So I don't think that's going to be solved anytime soon. But who knows?
I'm probably not understanding, but I thought new Drum Sequencer has a Record button, so it apparently can record user playing the notes / drum pads of the device its attached to? Which would be exactly what Live / Bitwig do when recording clips to the Session View / Clip Launcher. I don't know if dumping those pattern changes to the Reason's main linear sequencer is possible, though (if that's what you're referring to)?
difference here is that that Drum Sequencer's record function is tied to Reason's transport. It can only record if Reason is playing while in Live and Bitwig, clip recording is possible independent of the sequencer.

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buddard
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Post 09 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
09 May 2018
antic604 wrote:
09 May 2018


I'm probably not understanding, but I thought new Drum Sequencer has a Record button, so it apparently can record user playing the notes / drum pads of the device its attached to? Which would be exactly what Live / Bitwig do when recording clips to the Session View / Clip Launcher. I don't know if dumping those pattern changes to the Reason's main linear sequencer is possible, though (if that's what you're referring to)?
difference here is that that Drum Sequencer's record function is tied to Reason's transport. It can only record if Reason is playing while in Live and Bitwig, clip recording is possible independent of the sequencer.
Sorry, I thought we were talking about controlling Play and Record via Remote or CV?

Activating via display will of course always work, regardless of the state of Reason's transport.

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QVprod
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Post 09 May 2018

buddard wrote:
09 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
09 May 2018


difference here is that that Drum Sequencer's record function is tied to Reason's transport. It can only record if Reason is playing while in Live and Bitwig, clip recording is possible independent of the sequencer.


Sorry, I thought we were talking about controlling Play and Record via Remote or CV?

Activating via display will of course always work, regardless of the state of Reason's transport.
On Drum Sequencer, you can control play independent of the sequencer playing, however I seemed not to be able to record when the sequencer wasn’t playing. Perhaps I’m mistaken?

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buddard
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Post 09 May 2018

QVprod wrote:
09 May 2018
buddard wrote:
09 May 2018




Sorry, I thought we were talking about controlling Play and Record via Remote or CV?

Activating via display will of course always work, regardless of the state of Reason's transport.
On Drum Sequencer, you can control play independent of the sequencer playing, however I seemed not to be able to record when the sequencer wasn’t playing. Perhaps I’m mistaken?
I mean that there's no limitation in Reason or the SDK that prevents this from working. So a hypothetical clip player could be able to record while the transport is stopped. The same way that Step Note Recorder can record while the transport is stopped, although Step happens to ignore the timing.

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QVprod
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Post 09 May 2018

]
buddard wrote:
09 May 2018
QVprod wrote:
09 May 2018


On Drum Sequencer, you can control play independent of the sequencer playing, however I seemed not to be able to record when the sequencer wasn’t playing. Perhaps I’m mistaken?
I mean that there's no limitation in Reason or the SDK that prevents this from working. So a hypothetical clip player could be able to record while the transport is stopped. The same way that Step Note Recorder can record while the transport is stopped, although Step happens to ignore the timing.
I'm wrong. Seems I forgot to press play on the player. With that in mind, One could actually conceivably create a pattern player that works similar to how clips do in Ableton per channel, but not globally. Though One could use something like JammeR along with some spiders as a sort of global scene switcher.

cgijoe
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Post 11 May 2018

I will second the need for something like this!! The ability to record non-quanitized human played phrases, but having the option to switch between those phrases on beats or 1/16 or bars like OctoRex would be incredible.

electrofux
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Post 11 May 2018

A Clip recorder definitly should have some loop recording features. I mean the beauty of lifes clips is that you press a button on your launchpad play something and its there.
Now that you cant remotely press record, is it possible to press record but recording only starts at the next loop and automatically ends after one loop?

Another issue is that i assume you cant record controller movents into the Clip Launcher, can you? If you can they probably have to be forwarded per CV to the underlying synth parameter, right?

Anyways aside for these recording issues a clip launcher would be really nice to have.

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antic604
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Post 11 May 2018

Come on! Why you're all so hung up about recording? The idea was about being able to do live performance from the existing clips in a non-linear way, which is currently not possible in Reason. Even in Live when you record in Session View the transport is running and Arrangement view is moving (although it's muted), so I don't see how this is an issue.
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electrofux
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Post 11 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
11 May 2018
Come on! Why you're all so hung up about recording? The idea was about being able to do live performance from the existing clips in a non-linear way, which is currently not possible in Reason. Even in Live when you record in Session View the transport is running and Arrangement view is moving (although it's muted), so I don't see how this is an issue.
I am not hung up. But those Clips need to be filled up somehow and one way it is done in live is by recording into it. And having to actually click record is not optimal. But as i said i would love to see a clip launcher despite any recording deficiencies. As a matter of fact i am asking for a clip launcher for years. And if a RE dev comes up with something that gets us a step nearer i am happy.

The thing is that the props should have adressed this years ago either by doing one themselves on top of the main sequencer. But somehow and despite of Reason doing alot of pattern based stuff they never did something in that area not even the slightest thing. With players you can get something in that direction by wiring up alot of devices if someone develops them but something like Lives Clip Launcher is a different beast. It is deeply integrated. There needs to be more than a Player SDK to get something like that.

And we already have a couple of players and now even CV-in. Yet none of them can have their patterns launchable to build up a pattern launching ecosystem not even the Drum Sequencer. Then the remoting issues of pattern based devices ( i am not even talking about the record button) and the 8 patterns most players seemm to have max. Current players are far from integrating in such a system.

Someone has to come up with something better than whats generally being build atm or going a different route and overcome some hurdles. My enthusiasm dropped a bit (and it was high after the announcement of 10.1) because i think we are still far away.

electrofux
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Post 11 May 2018

But back to the topic. How would that launcher actually look like in terms of user interface and connections?

Let's say it is an 8x8 Matrix of Buttons on the front + plus a column of scene launch buttons. On the back you would have 1 CV out per collumn to transmit the pattern to be played. If you want to integrate exisiting sequencers like Thor or REx a gate out per pad would come in handy too probably.
On the front a pad needs to be set to a certain pattern by assigning a number to the pad which gets transmitted on the Cv Out of the collumn. Also some naming facilties would be nice and/or a means to manully distinguish a "filled" pad from one thats empty. Ideally it offers a limited colorpalette that resemble the launchpad colors. It needs to be tied to a remote item that sends the color information to the Launchpad.
Also quantization options so that everything is in sync similiar to Robotic Beans SelectRE. A pad should start a pattern at the next loop. Empty pads serve as loop stop or there is an additional stop row or if pressed again the pad stops the pattern- has to be decided what the best way is.
I assume one could even stitch some kind of prototype together with a couple of Matrix/Redrum-Combis and a ton of CV devices.

Edit: Actually, what you propose is partly there. The Retouch devices have a scene in CV. So there is a Drumsequencer and a Note Sequencer where the Patterns can be remotely launched. Whats missing is the Launching RE and like i said that could be stichted together with (alot) of CV devices. But a dedicated one with extra features would be nice. I allways wanted a simple Grid of buttons. The Retouch sequencers could also make use of some additional sequencing features but for starters and to test the launching RE they should be sufficient. The immense advantage of the Retouch Devices is that they are the only Sequencers with patterns (and 16 of them) that is remotely editable via launchpad. All other Sequencer REs (with patterns) we have cant do that.

Edit2: I just did a couple of tests. And by putting the Drumsequencer into a Combinator and assign CV in 1 to the Pattern selection and adding a Select CV Switch it can be remotely switched. Would have been nice to have a dedicated CV in on the Drumsequencer but as i said above Props dont think in that direction and make it easier for us.
So for starters we just need that Launcher. And the most basic one would be a simple 8x8 matrix of Buttons with Gate outs and an additional collumn for scene launching. The rest could be added with existing cv devices- though i am still thinking how to combine individual pattern launching and scene launching. From that more and more stuff could be added to get rid of the CV modules and make it a proper launcher with dedicated support for hardware.

Edit3: There even is a way to remotely start recording. If you assign Record to Combinator Button 1, you can switch recording on and off. BUT after having input and recorded a couple of notes, you need to manually hit the record button to make them stay in the Sequencer. Turning off recording by hitting the combinator button deletes the just recorded notes. Which is odd.

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

No takers for the idea? I think it's brilliant and quite doable, but I've no skills to pull it off. All we need is basically two devices:
1) A launcher, that will send the CV to sequencer to start or stop specific clip or group of clips (scene)
2) A sequencer that can send gate CV, note CV and control CVs to any rack instrument & effect - that information would be combined into clips, each of which would have user-definable length, looping behaviour, launch quantization, follow actions, etc. - typical stuff found in Live or Bitwig

Just think about all those people that could use this for jamming, live performance, etc. The sequencer wouldn't really have to be very sophisticated - a feature set like the new Drum Sequencer with added launch quantizeation & follow actions would be fine - although it would be awesome if existing MIDI clips or automation clips from the arranger could be drag&dropped to speed up entering of the notes and control CVs respectively.

I'd be even willing to partially fund the development and then split the proceeds from sales...
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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EdGrip
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Post 23 May 2018

I noticed that in the feature requests thread that Presonus linked to on Twitter the other day, people were asking for a Live-style clip launcher for Studio One.

It seems there's lots of demand for freer, non-linear ways of arranging and performing with DAWs. All the big players seem content to leave it to Live and its close cousin Bitwig to meet that huge demand. The more I think about it the more I wonder why everyone isn't trying their spin on the jam-able DAW.
I think Reason especially would lend itself to exploring a less linear way of running the rack.

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antic604
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Post 23 May 2018

EdGrip wrote:
23 May 2018
I noticed that in the feature requests thread that Presonus linked to on Twitter the other day, people were asking for a Live-style clip launcher for Studio One.

It seems there's lots of demand for freer, non-linear ways of arranging and performing with DAWs. All the big players seem content to leave it to Live and its close cousin Bitwig to meet that huge demand. The more I think about it the more I wonder why everyone isn't trying their spin on the jam-able DAW.
I think Reason especially would lend itself to exploring a less linear way of running the rack.
Exactly! Seeing how 90%+ of music posted on FB groups is trap/hip-hop and EDM, it would really be useful as those styles are heavily loop-based.
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

chrischrischris
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Post 23 May 2018

antic604 wrote:
23 May 2018
No takers for the idea? I think it's brilliant and quite doable, but I've no skills to pull it off. All we need is basically two devices:
1) A launcher, that will send the CV to sequencer to start or stop specific clip or group of clips (scene)
2) A sequencer that can send gate CV, note CV and control CVs to any rack instrument & effect - that information would be combined into clips, each of which would have user-definable length, looping behaviour, launch quantization, follow actions, etc. - typical stuff found in Live or Bitwig

Just think about all those people that could use this for jamming, live performance, etc. The sequencer wouldn't really have to be very sophisticated - a feature set like the new Drum Sequencer with added launch quantizeation & follow actions would be fine - although it would be awesome if existing MIDI clips or automation clips from the arranger could be drag&dropped to speed up entering of the notes and control CVs respectively.

I'd be even willing to partially fund the development and then split the proceeds from sales...


Hi,

I will be honest I haven't read this post in full so I might be barking up the wrong tree as I don't exactly know how Live works but this post from a while ago is showing what You can do at the moment with available RE's and Native Devices but I would love a simpler version with Sample Loading RE's And Players.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7500943&p=329906#p329906

There is a guy further down the post who puts My Ideas into better words!

Chris
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