Players we want built thread

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Loque
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15 May 2018

Despondo wrote:
15 May 2018
aeox wrote:
10 May 2018
I want a character Player that dances to the midi.
Like this?

https://www.image-line.com/support/FLHe ... 0Dance.htm

Everybody was waiting for this...
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guitfnky
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
14 May 2018
ltbrunt00 wrote:
14 May 2018


Mic Drop....You nailed it with this request. A player like this would be instant buy. I hope the Props are reading.......
I find that the best way to humanize anything is to do it manually(midi/velocity, etc) or with the "Tool Options" window which has some handy features like randomize ticks and velocity, etc.

It would be interesting to see if someone could actually make a player that did what you're asking and made it convincing.
I can’t think of a reason it shouldn’t be doable in a Player. I did something similar with a giant combinator that I use to help program more lively sounding drum patterns.

using the tools in F8 works, but in my experience don’t sound at all convincing (the combi I made does, to my ears). then there’s the matter of F8 tools requiring extra steps, (and doing it manually means even more extra steps) which is why this could/should be implemented in a Player, if it really is possible.
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selig
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
ltbrunt00 wrote:
14 May 2018
Mic Drop....You nailed it with this request. A player like this would be instant buy. I hope the Props are reading.......
I find that the best way to humanize anything is to do it manually(midi/velocity, etc) or with the "Tool Options" window which has some handy features like randomize ticks and velocity, etc.

It would be interesting to see if someone could actually make a player that did what you're asking and made it convincing.
I don’t find “random” to feel “human”, as no human is perfectly random. For this to be valuable you would probably need some “personality” controls, such as “relaxed” vs “anxious”, “anal” vs “sloppy”, “drunk” vs “sober”, etc. ;)

As with the quantize suggestion, you have the issues around doing this real time, in that you cannot move notes SOONER in time to “push” the feel, thus removing half of the useful functionality of such a feature IMO...




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guitfnky
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
aeox wrote:
I find that the best way to humanize anything is to do it manually(midi/velocity, etc) or with the "Tool Options" window which has some handy features like randomize ticks and velocity, etc.

It would be interesting to see if someone could actually make a player that did what you're asking and made it convincing.
I don’t find “random” to feel “human”, as no human is perfectly random. For this to be valuable you would probably need some “personality” controls, such as “relaxed” vs “anxious”, “anal” vs “sloppy”, “drunk” vs “sober”, etc. ;)

As with the quantize suggestion, you have the issues around doing this real time, in that you cannot move notes SOONER in time to “push” the feel, thus removing half of the useful functionality of such a feature IMO...




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the way I did it in my combi was to use a slow sine LFO x a faster smooth random LFO to control the slide values of a Propulsion sequencer. it allowed the sequencer to trigger gates ahead of the beat, as well as behind.

the sine LFO was the deeper of the two, so the timing would gradually drift ahead of and behind the beat, if using that alone. the smooth random just throws that drift off a little bit. I think it sounds pretty convincing, but then I put probably 30 hours into building the whole thing, so it might just be confirmation bias. :)
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aeox
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
aeox wrote:
I find that the best way to humanize anything is to do it manually(midi/velocity, etc) or with the "Tool Options" window which has some handy features like randomize ticks and velocity, etc.

It would be interesting to see if someone could actually make a player that did what you're asking and made it convincing.
I don’t find “random” to feel “human”, as no human is perfectly random. For this to be valuable you would probably need some “personality” controls, such as “relaxed” vs “anxious”, “anal” vs “sloppy”, “drunk” vs “sober”, etc. ;)

As with the quantize suggestion, you have the issues around doing this real time, in that you cannot move notes SOONER in time to “push” the feel, thus removing half of the useful functionality of such a feature IMO...




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Well I don't just hit randomize and call it good and It's not going to do the job for people that's for sure. I hit randomize velocity as a starting point and go change anything manually until it sounds convincing. Works well with velocity mod, etc. Maybe it's not "humanization" but it sure helps things sound more unpredictable/imperfect and overall more exciting to listen to if taken enough time to fine tune.

You can't move notes sooner with the ticks thing? It seems to function that way for me :?: I don't know what you mean by "real time"
Last edited by aeox on 15 May 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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15 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
15 May 2018
selig wrote:
15 May 2018


I don’t find “random” to feel “human”, as no human is perfectly random. For this to be valuable you would probably need some “personality” controls, such as “relaxed” vs “anxious”, “anal” vs “sloppy”, “drunk” vs “sober”, etc. ;)

As with the quantize suggestion, you have the issues around doing this real time, in that you cannot move notes SOONER in time to “push” the feel, thus removing half of the useful functionality of such a feature IMO...




Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
the way I did it in my combi was to use a slow sine LFO x a faster smooth random LFO to control the slide values of a Propulsion sequencer. it allowed the sequencer to trigger gates ahead of the beat, as well as behind.

the sine LFO was the deeper of the two, so the timing would gradually drift ahead of and behind the beat, if using that alone. the smooth random just throws that drift off a little bit. I think it sounds pretty convincing, but then I put probably 30 hours into building the whole thing, so it might just be confirmation bias. :)
The equivalent of this would require using a Player to control the ReGroove mixer, which is not currently supported. Otherwise, there is no way the Player can know what has been programmed in the sequencer - and definitely no way to know what you are about to play live and compensate accordingly!
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selig
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
15 May 2018
selig wrote:
15 May 2018


I don’t find “random” to feel “human”, as no human is perfectly random. For this to be valuable you would probably need some “personality” controls, such as “relaxed” vs “anxious”, “anal” vs “sloppy”, “drunk” vs “sober”, etc. ;)

As with the quantize suggestion, you have the issues around doing this real time, in that you cannot move notes SOONER in time to “push” the feel, thus removing half of the useful functionality of such a feature IMO...




Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Well I don't just hit randomize and call it good and It's not going to do the job for people that's for sure. I hit randomize velocity as a starting point and go change anything manually until it sounds convincing. Works well with velocity mod, etc. Maybe it's not "humanization" but it sure helps things sound more unpredictable/imperfect and overall more exciting to listen to if taken enough time to fine tune.

You can't move notes sooner with the ticks thing? It seems to function that way for me :?: I don't know what you mean by "real time"
Sure you can manually (with the inspector) move notes however you like in the sequencer - but we're talking about Players here, right? And Players would have to know what has been sequenced BEFORE it applies it's "effect" to timing.

Velocity can easily be randomized btw (with a 64 sample delay FWIW), it's the timing I'm talking about with a Player device.
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guitfnky
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
guitfnky wrote:
15 May 2018


the way I did it in my combi was to use a slow sine LFO x a faster smooth random LFO to control the slide values of a Propulsion sequencer. it allowed the sequencer to trigger gates ahead of the beat, as well as behind.

the sine LFO was the deeper of the two, so the timing would gradually drift ahead of and behind the beat, if using that alone. the smooth random just throws that drift off a little bit. I think it sounds pretty convincing, but then I put probably 30 hours into building the whole thing, so it might just be confirmation bias. :)
The equivalent of this would require using a Player to control the ReGroove mixer, which is not currently supported. Otherwise, there is no way the Player can know what has been programmed in the sequencer - and definitely no way to know what you are about to play live and compensate accordingly!
ah, good point; I was sort of wondering about whether it would fit with the Player paradigm, but this clarifies... I know CV is now supported... theoretically, if there was a CV input for a similar slide function in a Player (I think Euclidean has a timing slide feature), would you be able to use that to work around that 'live play' limitation in a Player, since you're really just using it as a sequencer?
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aeox
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
aeox wrote:
15 May 2018


Well I don't just hit randomize and call it good and It's not going to do the job for people that's for sure. I hit randomize velocity as a starting point and go change anything manually until it sounds convincing. Works well with velocity mod, etc. Maybe it's not "humanization" but it sure helps things sound more unpredictable/imperfect and overall more exciting to listen to if taken enough time to fine tune.

You can't move notes sooner with the ticks thing? It seems to function that way for me :?: I don't know what you mean by "real time"
Sure you can manually (with the inspector) move notes however you like in the sequencer - but we're talking about Players here, right? And Players would have to know what has been sequenced BEFORE it applies it's "effect" to timing.

Velocity can easily be randomized btw (with a 64 sample delay FWIW), it's the timing I'm talking about with a Player device.
I was offering the guy an alternative to players; though, I said that it would be interesting to see what someone could come up with as a player device for humanization.

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selig
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15 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:
15 May 2018
selig wrote:
15 May 2018


The equivalent of this would require using a Player to control the ReGroove mixer, which is not currently supported. Otherwise, there is no way the Player can know what has been programmed in the sequencer - and definitely no way to know what you are about to play live and compensate accordingly!
ah, good point; I was sort of wondering about whether it would fit with the Player paradigm, but this clarifies... I know CV is now supported... theoretically, if there was a CV input for a similar slide function in a Player (I think Euclidean has a timing slide feature), would you be able to use that to work around that 'live play' limitation in a Player, since you're really just using it as a sequencer?
Sure, you can randomize a device that contains the notes you want to randomize, but you can do that without a player now. It's just not something a player can do since you basically have to be able to do everything in real-time with a player so that you can hit notes on a keyboard and hear the effect. Since we can't bend time (yet), you can't have a player output a note BEFORE you play it… ;)
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selig
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
15 May 2018
selig wrote:
15 May 2018


Sure you can manually (with the inspector) move notes however you like in the sequencer - but we're talking about Players here, right? And Players would have to know what has been sequenced BEFORE it applies it's "effect" to timing.

Velocity can easily be randomized btw (with a 64 sample delay FWIW), it's the timing I'm talking about with a Player device.
I was offering the guy an alternative to players; though, I said that it would be interesting to see what someone could come up with as a player device for humanization.
I understood, and was replying only to your second point, the fact that you cannot randomize timing with a player because of "time" flowing only in one direction… ;)
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aeox
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
aeox wrote:
15 May 2018


I was offering the guy an alternative to players; though, I said that it would be interesting to see what someone could come up with as a player device for humanization.
I understood, and was replying only to your second point, the fact that you cannot randomize timing with a player because of "time" flowing only in one direction… ;)
That's why you just do it manually :thumbs_up:

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selig
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
15 May 2018
selig wrote:
15 May 2018


I understood, and was replying only to your second point, the fact that you cannot randomize timing with a player because of "time" flowing only in one direction… ;)
That's why you just do it manually :thumbs_up:
We're on the same page!
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guitfnky
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
guitfnky wrote:
15 May 2018


ah, good point; I was sort of wondering about whether it would fit with the Player paradigm, but this clarifies... I know CV is now supported... theoretically, if there was a CV input for a similar slide function in a Player (I think Euclidean has a timing slide feature), would you be able to use that to work around that 'live play' limitation in a Player, since you're really just using it as a sequencer?
Sure, you can randomize a device that contains the notes you want to randomize, but you can do that without a player now. It's just not something a player can do since you basically have to be able to do everything in real-time with a player so that you can hit notes on a keyboard and hear the effect. Since we can't bend time (yet), you can't have a player output a note BEFORE you play it… ;)
but for Players that generate their own notes, I think having that ability would be possible, no? it would certainly be incredibly useful. for example, if Kompulsion had CV in for the slide values of the notes it's generating, you should still be able to generate notes from the Player that are ahead of the beat, in the same way that the Propulsion Rack Extension does, if that makes sense.

and yes, you can do that without a Player now, but being able to do it with a Player would be very welcome in that it would vastly reduce the amount of complex CV wiring needed to accomplish certain goals.

for example, my combi contains 95 devices. it handles 16 pattern lanes, each with their own randomization settings for timing and velocity. it allows you to specify notes that are required, or those that should be handled by a probabilty.

to manage that, I needed two separate Propulsion sequencers, Truth and Randrome modules for each of the 16 kit pieces, and a sort of insane amount of CV routing/Spiders/Lolths/etc.

as you might imagine, the CPU hit is not insignificant. :(

two of the Players that just came out handle the required strike/probability strike straight out of the box. if either of them introduced CV ins for velocity and timing, that immediately would reduce the need for me to use 32 of the devices from my combi (at a minimum; likely more). not to mention, the usage for the Players is much more straightforward when these functions are native to the device.

from my thread on what I built (in case you're at all interested): viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7506591
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1JhWPOa ... sp=sharing

^^^-here's the combi-^^^
vvv-and the video-vvv



:)
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selig
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15 May 2018

guitfnky wrote:but for Players that generate their own notes, I think having that ability would be possible, no?
What you’re talking about has been possible since the first MIDI sequencer back in the 1980s, unless I’m misunderstanding your point. So it’s certainly possible with any device that generates notes, player or otherwise.

This feels more like a feature request for any devices that can produce notes, since it needs to be self-contained to work properly, right?


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guitfnky
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15 May 2018

selig wrote:
15 May 2018
guitfnky wrote:but for Players that generate their own notes, I think having that ability would be possible, no?
What you’re talking about has been possible since the first MIDI sequencer back in the 1980s, unless I’m misunderstanding your point. So it’s certainly possible with any device that generates notes, player or otherwise.

This feels more like a feature request for any devices that can produce notes, since it needs to be self-contained to work properly, right?


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yes, I suppose it is. I was thinking it should be possible to have a timing/velocity randomization adjusting Player (that you could just plop on the butt-end of an existing Player, like Drum Sequencer or Kompulsion), until you explained it more clearly. :)
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Despondo
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15 May 2018

aeox wrote:
15 May 2018
Yes, but a way cooler version of it!
But of course! I would expect higher standards from this crew. LOL!!

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Aquila
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19 May 2018

selig wrote:
14 May 2018
Aquila wrote:
Heh...that's not what I was thinking. It's impossible to preempt your notes lol. I was talking about delaying/quantising your played notes to the next specified timeslot.
One possible issue with that is all notes will have to be moved (delayed) to the next beat with this approach. So while they may be quantized, they will also be delayed somewhat defeating the purpose I would imagine…


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That's actually exactly what I was wanting. Play and hold your notes a beat or so early and the player will wait until the next specified time event.

Think of how Ableton's clip launcher waits before starting a loop, but for MIDI notes instead.

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ljekio
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19 May 2018

Realtime Note Quantizer can be must have Player.
Start of loops, rhythmic patterns, arpeggios, etc.
While I use Thor's seq for quantizer now, but this is too cumbersome and requires one sequencer per note.

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selig
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19 May 2018

Aquila wrote:
19 May 2018
selig wrote:
14 May 2018


One possible issue with that is all notes will have to be moved (delayed) to the next beat with this approach. So while they may be quantized, they will also be delayed somewhat defeating the purpose I would imagine…


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That's actually exactly what I was wanting. Play and hold your notes a beat or so early and the player will wait until the next specified time event.

Think of how Ableton's clip launcher waits before starting a loop, but for MIDI notes instead.
This is easy to do if what you want to do is play live. But for all recorded notes, every note that is even one tick behind the beat will be moved to the NEXT beat. This will cause ever note that is late to be moved to the next beat, and ever note that is early to be moved to the correct beat. In other words, it would totally mess up your rhythms.

The reason it can work with Live is that you are doing it, well, live. You click a clip button AHEAD of the beat, it waits for the next beat. But here's the rub - if you click even slightly AFTER the beat, it cannot play it sooner to be "correct". All it can do is move it to the next beat, which is not going to be where you intended it to be.

So with this in a Player, you'll get some notes on the correct beat, and some on the next (incorrect) beat. That is unless you only feed it performances that are all played early, which is almost as difficult to learn to do as playing on time. ;)

I know this would work fine for triggering sequences or clips, but not necessarily for playing notes/chords…
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ljekio
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Joined: 21 Jan 2015

26 May 2018

BTW, RPG-8 Arp playing with quantized steps (from transport link), but Dual Arp player isn't.
Also having cool onboard pattern and insert functions, wires to CVPT lead it to the Players world. :)

upd: omg, 2-3-4 RPG-8 with CVPT its bomb :)

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manisnotabird
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Location: Austin, TX

28 May 2018

A simple velocity randomizer could be cool.


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sonicbyte
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28 May 2018

A guitar strum simulator

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rcbuse
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29 May 2018

I want those pattern buttons to be smaller...
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