How hard can it be?

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BRIGGS
Posts: 2131
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

08 Mar 2018

How hard can it be to create your own rack extensions for sale or private use?

I have some light programming skills, and a heavy 2d/3d graphics and design background. Solidworks, Autocad, photoshop/gimp, etc.

Is this doable for one guy? Anyone?
r11s

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Faastwalker
Posts: 2281
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: NSW, Australia

08 Mar 2018

I looked into this a lot as I had the same idea & even signed up as a developer to get the tools ........ that's as far as I got! Didn't have a clue! My research pointed to the requirement, obviously I guess, to good programming skills with an emphasis on strong understanding of DSP. That was me out! Was considering a collaboration but that requires employing or paying someone. I was hoping to start as more of a hobby thing & progress from there. Found it hard to get started without some capital to back it up.

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Softphonics
Posts: 148
Joined: 26 Mar 2016
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08 Mar 2018

There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance. That can put you off reinvesting in the next project. But to answer your question, It is a commitment on different levels and releasing it requires you set up a company for legality and taxable purposes too. You cant really half go into it, you have to go full on in my personal opinion. Go for it if you are in a position to.
------
Serious Sound For Serious Producers :reason:
http://www.Softphonics.com

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eusti
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08 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance. That can put you off reinvesting in the next project. But to answer your question, It is a commitment on different levels and releasing it requires you set up a company for legality and taxable purposes too. You cant really half go into it, you have to go full on in my personal opinion. Go for it if you are in a position to.
I'm glad you're still sticking with it! Have only bought some of your refills so far, but those are top notch!

D.

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Oquasec
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Joined: 05 Mar 2017

08 Mar 2018

I think you might have to make a company for that.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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hurricane
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08 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
...and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance.
Well Andrew, if you don't like the way a car looks, you're not going to test drive it. Right? Nothing personal. I bought one of your refills, fwiw.
Soundcloud | Youtube
Logic Pro | Bitwig

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BRIGGS
Posts: 2131
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

08 Mar 2018

Sheesh!!! I just wanted to get my feet wet, not dive in. Maybe start with a gain device then move to full blown distortions. (you can never have enough of those)

Is there not an sdk I can play around with? I'd love to learn to code a clipping circuit with maybe an Impulse response for the tone stack.
r11s

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nickb523
RE Developer
Posts: 426
Joined: 23 Jan 2017
Location: Fife, Scotland
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08 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance. That can put you off reinvesting in the next project. But to answer your question, It is a commitment on different levels and releasing it requires you set up a company for legality and taxable purposes too. You cant really half go into it, you have to go full on in my personal opinion. Go for it if you are in a position to.
Never a truer word spoken. :)

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selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11681
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

08 Mar 2018

Best way is to contact the Props and have a look for yourself - only YOU know your skill level!
FWIW, I would never be put off by a few negative reviews…my first album review in Billboard was far less than glowing, but I persevered and made more music. Same for my REs, not everyone will love everything you do in life!

Even the most successful in any field always have more detractors than supporters! Or as my mastering mentor Bob Olhsson once told me, even The Beatles, Elvis, and Michael Jackson have more folks who hate them than who love them. That can never be a reason to decide whether to follow your dream or not IMO.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Selig Audio, LLC

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nickb523
RE Developer
Posts: 426
Joined: 23 Jan 2017
Location: Fife, Scotland
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08 Mar 2018

BRIGGS wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Is there not an sdk I can play around with? I'd love to learn to code a clipping circuit with maybe an Impulse response for the tone stack.
It's all here man.. it's no big secret!

https://www.propellerheads.se/developers

Nick :)

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

08 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance. That can put you off reinvesting in the next project. But to answer your question, It is a commitment on different levels and releasing it requires you set up a company for legality and taxable purposes too. You cant really half go into it, you have to go full on in my personal opinion. Go for it if you are in a position to.
My mind was blown away with the structure refill! Gave me inspiration to build my own percussion combinators using the dual arp and Kong keyboard splits :D and the fact that it has like 100 of them is crazy lol much respect for softphonics and their insanity
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

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BRIGGS
Posts: 2131
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

08 Mar 2018

selig wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Best way is to contact the Props and have a look for yourself - only YOU know your skill level!
FWIW, I would never be put off by a few negative reviews…my first album review in Billboard was far less than glowing, but I persevered and made more music. Same for my REs, not everyone will love everything you do in life!

Even the most successful in any field always have more detractors than supporters! Or as my mastering mentor Bob Olhsson once told me, even The Beatles, Elvis, and Michael Jackson have more folks who hate them than who love them. That can never be a reason to decide whether to follow your dream or not IMO.


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Thanks, this is encouraging!

Though, I'm not sure I want to start my own company. Seems like loads of paperwork to just make a fun noise box.
r11s

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Loque
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08 Mar 2018

A dev makes 17 LoC per day including coding, testing, debugging, documenting, patches, GUI, ... I guess you know how long it takes to program something.

And don't forget, if you release something with bugs or a ugly GUI some ppl here can be pretty harsh with there critics ;-)
Reason12, Win10

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Faastwalker
Posts: 2281
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: NSW, Australia

08 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance. That can put you off reinvesting in the next project. But to answer your question, It is a commitment on different levels and releasing it requires you set up a company for legality and taxable purposes too. You cant really half go into it, you have to go full on in my personal opinion. Go for it if you are in a position to.
It's a tough gig for sure. And I guess we are all a bit spoiled these days - so much stuff out there. A lot of choice. I think it's true the consumer doesn't care much for the time & effort that goes into these things. Have to say I'm guilty of this myself. I think as consumers we are just focused on a product with little consideration to what has brought it to fruition. My train of thought tends to be > It looks good, or not (first bite is with the eye), do I like what it does? Do I like how it works? Do I like the price based on previous responses i.e. For me personally is it worth paying X amount to get X features / abilities & have X amount of fun? The more RE's we get the harder it is to tick all these boxes. And with VST support the competition just went up a dozen notches for an already very niche RE market ...........

........... Yep, definitely a hard gig as an RE developer. To be honest I think the only way I could get into this stuff is if I was already extremely proficient at coding & developing software instruments & effects, was able to turn stuff around quickly on my own, Had a shed load of free time / not work full time & no desire to make a living from doing all this stuff. I think maybe then I could make it as an RE dev. But I reckon it would be easier to make a living as an alcoholic beverage salesmen in Saudi Arabia!! :shock:

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Ahornberg
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09 Mar 2018

Just a quick comparsion between making an RE and making a module for the VCV Rack

RE

covers a complete synth and/or FX
input sources: MIDI, CV, audio mono/stereo
outputs: CV, audio mono/stereo
programming languages: C++, Lua
GUI: usually photorealistic 3D design
data processing: blocks of 64 audio samples
challenges: polyphony, dealing with start/stop/position of the sequencer

VCV Module

covers a single aspect, e.g. an oscillator
input sources: mono signals at sampling rate (there's no distinct between CV and audio)
outputs: mono signals at sampling rate
programming languages: C++
GUI: simple SVG graphics
data processing: one sample at a time
challenges: CPU-efficiency because everything runs on audio rate

From my experience, coding modules for the VCV Rack is "pretty simple" compared to coding an RE.

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Loque
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Joined: 28 Dec 2015

09 Mar 2018

Ahornberg wrote:
09 Mar 2018
Just a quick comparsion between making an RE and making a module for the VCV Rack

RE

covers a complete synth and/or FX
input sources: MIDI, CV, audio mono/stereo
outputs: CV, audio mono/stereo
programming languages: C++, Lua
GUI: usually photorealistic 3D design
data processing: blocks of 64 audio samples
challenges: polyphony, dealing with start/stop/position of the sequencer

VCV Module

covers a single aspect, e.g. an oscillator
input sources: mono signals at sampling rate (there's no distinct between CV and audio)
outputs: mono signals at sampling rate
programming languages: C++
GUI: simple SVG graphics
data processing: one sample at a time
challenges: CPU-efficiency because everything runs on audio rate

From my experience, coding modules for the VCV Rack is "pretty simple" compared to coding an RE.
Just my 2 cents...A single aspect module of VCV is pretty useless. You need everything around it, like you described for the RE. So your assumptions for comparison are not the best. Some more cents...I guess SVG is hardware accelerated by an engine. And finally you are not bound to C++ for VCV, it is only the API that is C++. But finally it definitely shows some aspects, PH should consider for the future of modular sound systems, from customer and dev aspects.
Reason12, Win10

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Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2018

BRIGGS wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Is this doable for one guy? Anyone?
Yes, it is doable.

Some have already pointed you into the right direction.

The positive aspects are:

1. You will complete a whole project.
2. You will gain a lot of knowledge about coding, testing, sound design, graphics, writing manuals, making videos, promotion and updating websites and the use of social media.
3. You will encounter a lot of cool people during beta testing and make friends.
4. You will learn a lot about frustration, perseverance and 'yes, yes... it's working' happiness.
5. You will make users very happy.
6. You will earn some money.

And the last should not be the main focus of releasing a RE.

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Softphonics
Posts: 148
Joined: 26 Mar 2016
Contact:

09 Mar 2018

Oenkenstein wrote:
09 Mar 2018
BRIGGS wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Is this doable for one guy? Anyone?
Yes, it is doable.

Some have already pointed you into the right direction.

The positive aspects are:

1. You will complete a whole project.
2. You will gain a lot of knowledge about coding, testing, sound design, graphics, writing manuals, making videos, promotion and updating websites and the use of social media.
3. You will encounter a lot of cool people during beta testing and make friends.
4. You will learn a lot about frustration, perseverance and 'yes, yes... it's working' happiness.
5. You will make users very happy.
6. You will earn some money.

And the last should not be the main focus of releasing a RE.

I totally agree with all of this... I'll spell out the experience.

There is lots of highs and lows, frustrations and happiness
The rewards are not hugely financial, but more equally personal and if it is on the 'bucket list' it will be a happy moment to complete at least one.

Seen as your question is based on "One person doing everything" I am one person so
Knowing your way around
C++
Lua / Lua scripting
3D Modeling
Instrument Scripting
Having a knowledge of Frequencies, Decibels, MIDI and Audio implementation etc..etc..is also going to come in at some point

This will get you the best results, although there is a 2D option I prefer 3D for the rendering.

Then the after bit involves, testing, patches, advertisement, videos, demo tracks, and I'm probably missing other things... but you get the overall picture.

Then there is TIME, you need time, and time that does not pay you when things are not working out. And things do go wrong.

Lastly you need thick skin, while you get plenty of lovely emails of congrats, you also have to put up with a certain amount of negativity. You have spent so much time and effort that the RE is like a child to you, and you know what happens if someone is negative about your child! ... It can be hard to ignore.

If all the above are completed and provided you have set up a legal entity (Company) and Propellerhead accept your RE .. then you are done.. until updates...
------
Serious Sound For Serious Producers :reason:
http://www.Softphonics.com

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Creativemind
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Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

09 Mar 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
08 Mar 2018
I looked into this a lot as I had the same idea & even signed up as a developer to get the tools ........ that's as far as I got! Didn't have a clue! My research pointed to the requirement, obviously I guess, to good programming skills with an emphasis on strong understanding of DSP. That was me out! Was considering a collaboration but that requires employing or paying someone. I was hoping to start as more of a hobby thing & progress from there. Found it hard to get started without some capital to back it up.
I've had the same idea as you and have been considering signing up but I'm guessing I'd encounter the same issues but don't know. I should try it this week I suppose and see.
:reason:

Reason Studio's 11.3 / Cockos Reaper 6.82 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Orion 8.6
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

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Faastwalker
Posts: 2281
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: NSW, Australia

09 Mar 2018

Creativemind wrote:
09 Mar 2018
Faastwalker wrote:
08 Mar 2018
I looked into this a lot as I had the same idea & even signed up as a developer to get the tools ........ that's as far as I got! Didn't have a clue! My research pointed to the requirement, obviously I guess, to good programming skills with an emphasis on strong understanding of DSP. That was me out! Was considering a collaboration but that requires employing or paying someone. I was hoping to start as more of a hobby thing & progress from there. Found it hard to get started without some capital to back it up.
I've had the same idea as you and have been considering signing up but I'm guessing I'd encounter the same issues but don't know. I should try it this week I suppose and see.
Problem is you need to sign up as a developer, which means registering as a business (which I did), just to get on board, get access to the development tools & the developer resources / forums .......... then you find out you've bitten off way more than you can chew. I wish the whole thing was more open & accessible. I think this is ultimately what will happen as professional RE development dwindles & it turns into more of a hobby, 'ReBirth Mod' type niche. I think VST support in Reason has accelerated the move towards this situation, which is a double edged sword - On the one hand it might mean that access to the secretive world of RE development becomes easier. On the other hand it means RE's become even more niche with next to no professional development & more or less exclusively hobby developers in it for the love.

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BRIGGS
Posts: 2131
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

09 Mar 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
09 Mar 2018
Creativemind wrote:
09 Mar 2018


I've had the same idea as you and have been considering signing up but I'm guessing I'd encounter the same issues but don't know. I should try it this week I suppose and see.
Problem is you need to sign up as a developer, which means registering as a business (which I did), just to get on board, get access to the development tools & the developer resources / forums .......... then you find out you've bitten off way more than you can chew. I wish the whole thing was more open & accessible. I think this is ultimately what will happen as professional RE development dwindles & it turns into more of a hobby, 'ReBirth Mod' type niche. I think VST support in Reason has accelerated the move towards this situation, which is a double edged sword - On the one hand it might mean that access to the secretive world of RE development becomes easier. On the other hand it means RE's become even more niche with next to no professional development & more or less exclusively hobby developers in it for the love.
I think RE is a GREAT format, but I agree, VST is more open. I may as well start with VST, since this is likely to flop due to my time constraints and situation in life.

Guys, thanks for all of your input on this! :ugeek:
r11s

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3929
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2018

BRIGGS wrote:
08 Mar 2018
How hard can it be to create your own rack extensions for sale or private use?

I have some light programming skills, and a heavy 2d/3d graphics and design background. Solidworks, Autocad, photoshop/gimp, etc.

Is this doable for one guy? Anyone?
Most things are doable if you just stick at it.

The way I see it is like this. You have this one life to live. The lamest thing you can do is quit on something because it looks kinda hard.

I always like to imagine that there are infinite universes with all the different versions of you and me in it, and I get to decide whether I'm in the one with the best version of me, the most fun version of me or the most daring version of me (daring being doing the things I might have thought were too difficult). Whatever it is you choose, go boldly.

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3929
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
09 Mar 2018
Problem is you need to sign up as a developer, which means registering as a business (which I did), just to get on board, get access to the development tools & the developer resources / forums .......... then you find out you've bitten off way more than you can chew. I wish the whole thing was more open & accessible. I think this is ultimately what will happen as professional RE development dwindles & it turns into more of a hobby, 'ReBirth Mod' type niche. I think VST support in Reason has accelerated the move towards this situation, which is a double edged sword - On the one hand it might mean that access to the secretive world of RE development becomes easier. On the other hand it means RE's become even more niche with next to no professional development & more or less exclusively hobby developers in it for the love.
You don't have to register a business just to access the SDK. Send them an email. It's only when you need to release a paid device that you need a corporation set up.

avasopht
Competition Winner
Posts: 3929
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2018

Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance.
One thing I've come to learn is that there are people out there who have no objective other than to get under people's skins.

By design they trigger various negative emotions and you'll want to react. But once you realize their words are really a reflection of themselves you can much more easily ignore everything those people say.

That's not to say to ignore all criticism, just the ones clearly coming from sad people who are hell bent on being a colossal pain.

User avatar
BRIGGS
Posts: 2131
Joined: 25 Sep 2015
Location: Orange County California

09 Mar 2018

avasopht wrote:
09 Mar 2018
Softphonics wrote:
08 Mar 2018
There is no doubt it is very hard, so many elements involved. It requires a lot of time and some capital to do right.. What is worse though is when you spend months working on one.. invest so much time and in our case even just sampling the instruments in the studio properly is a few weeks work, and then sections of the reason community just hate on it without giving it a chance.
One thing I've come to learn is that there are people out there who have no objective other than to get under people's skins.

By design they trigger various negative emotions and you'll want to react. But once you realize their words are really a reflection of themselves you can much more easily ignore everything those people say.

That's not to say to ignore all criticism, just the ones clearly coming from sad people who are hell bent on being a colossal pain.
I like you. :puf_bigsmile:
r11s

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