Rumble K2 Player and Rumble K2 Player Light released

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

06 Mar 2018

Hi,

Just released two Rack Extensions: Rumble K2 Player and Rumble K2 Player Light. They are available in the Propellerhead Shop.

Rumble K2 Player:
K2Front.jpg
K2Front.jpg (176.13 KiB) Viewed 9622 times
- An emulation of an additive wavetable Kawai K1 digital synthesizer from 1985.
- Mimics the operation system and the naming conventions on a Kawai K1.
- Contains all the default patches: 64 Single instrument patches and 32 multi instrument patches.
- 84 signature patches made by Navi Retlav, Wongo the Sane, Buddaka and Loque.

Rumble K2 Player is build as a patch or instrument browser and can be used as a synthesizer. This version of the Rumble K series has some additions such as Sine, Super and Sub oscillators, a Wave Loop Shaper, an Amp Envelope section with ADSR controls, Vibrato, Auto Bend, Pitch Bend, Frequency, Filter, Keys and Velocity panels, 3 effects devices and a Modulation Matrix on the back panel.

Download the K2 Player Operation Manual (PDF).

The introduction price is Euro 29,00 until March 16, 2018.

Rumble K2 Player Light:
K2LightFront.jpg
K2LightFront.jpg (98.26 KiB) Viewed 9622 times
- Like Rumble K2 Player, this Rack Extension is an emulation of an additive wavetable Kawai K1 digital synthesizer from 1985.
- Mimics the operation system and the naming conventions on a Kawai K1
- Contains all the default patches: 64 single instrument patches and 32 multi instrument patches.

Rumble K2 Player Light is build as a patch or instrument browser. It is basically a rompler, but this version of the Rumble K series has some additions such as Sine, Super and Sub oscillators, a Wave Loop Shaper, an Amp Envelope section with ADSR controls, 7 effects devices and a Modulation Matrix on the back panel.

Download the K2 Player Light Operation Manual (PDF).

The introduction price is Euro 19,00 until March 16, 2018.

Download product comparison chart (PDF).

Let's Rumble,

/Ed Gool
Oenkenstein Audio.
Last edited by Oenkenstein on 07 Mar 2018, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1779
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

06 Mar 2018

Fuck yeah. I can't wait to demo this and will almost certainly be buying it. Awesome.

dustmoses
Posts: 197
Joined: 04 Oct 2015

07 Mar 2018

Can I get a patch count on k1 and these 2 new ones, I'm buying one this week and that will help.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

dustmoses wrote:
07 Mar 2018
Can I get a patch count on k1 and these 2 new ones, I'm buying one this week and that will help.
Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer has 161 patches: 77 instrument patches, and 84 signature patches.
Rumble K2 Player has 96 instrument patches (64 single instrument and 32 multi instrument patches) and 84 signature patches.
Rumble K2 Player Light has 96 patches instrument patches (64 single instrument and 32 multi instrument patches) and they are the same as on the Rumble K2 Player. The Light version does not have signature patches.

There is also a Product Comparison Chart where you can see the amount of patches per product.

If you want the true sounds from the Kawai K1, go for the Rumble K2 Player or K2 Player Light.
If you want to experiment with additive wavetable and granular synthesis combined, then go for the Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer. Please note that the Rumble K1 does not contain the original sounds of a Kawai K1.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

Hi Oenkenstein!

Congrats on your release! The original K1 is an old favorite of mine, so I'm looking forward to trying these out... However I'm slightly confused by some things / choices...

1) "player" names: In my experience this usually indicates that the device is not a full synth and patches cannot be fully edited. If I read the material correctly, this isn't the case, correct?
2) "full" to "light" product: Looking at the comparison chart it seems that the light version actually has more (and to me seemingly" more useful FX... For this kind of synth I would have thought that a reverb would be a more obvious choice than a Leslie... Now I'm hesitating to buy the full version as I - of course - would like the better one of the two and the additional patches, but am not sure now which one is the better one in this case... Any advice or tips here?
3) The part about the noisy samples / noise reduction: Does that mean that the samples are even more noisy than in the original? The K1 is - to me - already pretty noisy... Did you do the noise reduction before hand to create a secondary set of samples using something like Izotope RX or is it done on the fly by just filtering frequencies out in real time?

Sorry for all these questions... Maybe I expect too much for a device in this price category, but I'm probably just not getting where you're coming from.

D.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018

1) "player" names: In my experience this usually indicates that the device is not a full synth and patches cannot be fully edited. If I read the material correctly, this isn't the case, correct?
1. The K2 Player is besides a patch player a digital wavetable synthesizer just like the original Kawai K1. The main diffence between the two is that the Kawai provides 256 individual wave loops and Rumble K2 Player provides 64 presets holding 4 wave loops.
eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
2) "full" to "light" product: Looking at the comparison chart it seems that the light version actually has more (and to me seemingly" more useful FX... For this kind of synth I would have thought that a reverb would be a more obvious choice than a Leslie... Now I'm hesitating to buy the full version as I - of course - would like the better one of the two and the additional patches, but am not sure now which one is the better one in this case... Any advice or tips here?
2. That is right. The Rumble K2 Player Light has more effects (7) then the Rumble K2 Player (3). All the panels on the Rumble K2 Player are similar to Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer. An advantage if you are familiar with Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer. Making a choice between the two can be hard. The Light version has more effects, but lacks a lot of features (like Vibrato, Auto Bend etc), while Rumble K2 Player has all the features, but lacks 4 extra effects.

If you want to construct your own sounds and instruments and control a synthesizer, go for Rumble K2 Player. You can always add other effects, like a RV7000 reverb, for patches that need them.

If you want to quickly browse through the original default instruments of the Kawai K1 without too much fiddling (live setting) and use mainly the effects to contruct your sound, go for it's little baby, the Rumble K2 Player Light.

Trailing them both might also help to decide.
eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
3) The part about the noisy samples / noise reduction: Does that mean that the samples are even more noisy than in the original? The K1 is - to me - already pretty noisy... Did you do the noise reduction before hand to create a secondary set of samples using something like Izotope RX or is it done on the fly by just filtering frequencies out in real time?
3. No, the wave loop samples are not more noisy than the original, which are indeed pretty noisy. The noise reduction is a on the fly solution to correct for the noise generated by the 4 wave loop samples. It is a 'gentle' Low Pass 12 Filter centred at 9 kHz and follows the keyboard.
eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
Sorry for all these questions... Maybe I expect too much for a device in this price category, but I'm probably just not getting where you're coming from.

D.
Au contraire, please ask questions and I hope to give some usefull information about the products.

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1779
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

07 Mar 2018

A little disappointed with this as it is lacking a few features of the Kawai K1, noteably the Delay parameter on the envelopes. This affects some of the sound effect presets such as Arrangement which rely on this, so the K2 can't do a good job of emulating this patch. I understand it isn't deal breaker for most but I'd quite like an emulation of the hardware, which this isn't. I'd like to have had control over all 4 partial waves also, although obviously I understand why it has been done like this. It definitely has the character of the Kawai K1, but I think I will sit this one out for now.

WongoTheSane
Moderator
Posts: 1851
Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Location: Paris, France

07 Mar 2018

I agree than the "Player" name can be misleading: to clarify, you can create or tweak patches on both of these devices, with no limitations whatsoever. "Player" just means than the original patches of the Kawai K1 are available to play out of the box (which wasn't the case with Rumble K1).

User avatar
JoshuaPhilgarlic
Posts: 389
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Munich/ Germany

07 Mar 2018

Am I right that waveforms can't be selected individually for each oscillator? Owning a K1 II back in the 90s this seems pretty odd to me. I also miss the envelope delay which was used for some signature sounds.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

dioxide wrote:
07 Mar 2018
A little disappointed with this as it is lacking a few features of the Kawai K1, noteably the Delay parameter on the envelopes. This affects some of the sound effect presets such as Arrangement which rely on this, so the K2 can't do a good job of emulating this patch. I understand it isn't deal breaker for most but I'd quite like an emulation of the hardware, which this isn't. I'd like to have had control over all 4 partial waves also, although obviously I understand why it has been done like this. It definitely has the character of the Kawai K1, but I think I will sit this one out for now.
Please educate me on the individual waves vs 4 partial waves ganged up... I loved the sounds from the original K1, but it was my friend's unit, so I never really learned to program it at any deeper level... Thanks!


D.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

Thank you very much for your thorough and careful explanations. I appreciate it! :)
Oenkenstein wrote:
07 Mar 2018
1. The K2 Player is besides a patch player a digital wavetable synthesizer just like the original Kawai K1. The main diffence between the two is that the Kawai provides 256 individual wave loops and Rumble K2 Player provides 64 presets holding 4 wave loops.
Could you elaborate how this differs from the original K1 and why you did this?
Oenkenstein wrote:
07 Mar 2018
2. That is right. The Rumble K2 Player Light has more effects (7) then the Rumble K2 Player (3). All the panels on the Rumble K2 Player are similar to Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer. An advantage if you are familiar with Rumble K1 Granular Synthesizer. Making a choice between the two can be hard. The Light version has more effects, but lacks a lot of features (like Vibrato, Auto Bend etc), while Rumble K2 Player has all the features, but lacks 4 extra effects.

If you want to construct your own sounds and instruments and control a synthesizer, go for Rumble K2 Player. You can always add other effects, like a RV7000 reverb, for patches that need them.

If you want to quickly browse through the original default instruments of the Kawai K1 without too much fiddling (live setting) and use mainly the effects to contruct your sound, go for it's little baby, the Rumble K2 Player Light.

Trailing them both might also help to decide.
Thank you for explaining. I think I just wish that the "full" version had it all and the the "light" version just less...
Oenkenstein wrote:
07 Mar 2018
3. No, the wave loop samples are not more noisy than the original, which are indeed pretty noisy. The noise reduction is a on the fly solution to correct for the noise generated by the 4 wave loop samples. It is a 'gentle' Low Pass 12 Filter centred at 9 kHz and follows the keyboard.
Ah, thank you! Great! I appreciate it! That is fabulous!
Oenkenstein wrote:
07 Mar 2018
Au contraire, please ask questions and I hope to give some usefull information about the products.
Thank you for your patience! Here are some more, if you don't mind...

4) Why were some of the original features (Envelope Delay, etc.) left out?

5) Am I correct in assuming that to recreate some of the original K1 sounds there would be a number of K2 instances in a combinator needed?

That's it for now... ;)

D.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

07 Mar 2018

PS: Sorry, if some of those questions can be easily answered by testing this RE... I tried and was instantly reminded why I never test REs... Now my computer is in the loop of please check your internet connection... :(

D

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

07 Mar 2018

I might get one of these as they are more in my price range! I actually really like how the matrix is on the back, makes the user force to flip it around. Who knows maybe someone will get inspired by that simple feature. Now the only confusion is how additive synthesis is mentioned I understand how it is granular but where does additive synthesis come into play
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

dioxide wrote:
07 Mar 2018
A little disappointed with this as it is lacking a few features of the Kawai K1, noteably the Delay parameter on the envelopes. This affects some of the sound effect presets such as Arrangement which rely on this, so the K2 can't do a good job of emulating this patch. I understand it isn't deal breaker for most but I'd quite like an emulation of the hardware, which this isn't. I'd like to have had control over all 4 partial waves also, although obviously I understand why it has been done like this. It definitely has the character of the Kawai K1, but I think I will sit this one out for now.
A delay curve can be set in the modulation matrix, but affects all oscillators at once and you can not set the time of the delay. On a Kawai K1 you can set the delay for each oscillator. Just a few patches do not sound exactly the same, because of this issue.

My advise is to wait a while if you want a clone of the hardware: A new RE is underway, called Rumble K2 Builder. Although this will be a one oscillator synthesizer, you need four of these devices to (re)build a Kawai patch, but it will have a proper delay function.

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1779
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

08 Mar 2018

Ok thanks. Is there any chance of getting a single device that emulates the K1? There isn't any reason that a single device could include a delay on each envelope is there? Or is this a limitation of the tools used to build this RE?

Generally I prefer a single device for an instrument for automation and Remote. Combis make sense for the multi patches but a single device would be better for the single patches / main instrument.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

JoshuaPhilgarlic wrote:
07 Mar 2018
Am I right that waveforms can't be selected individually for each oscillator? Owning a K1 II back in the 90s this seems pretty odd to me. I also miss the envelope delay which was used for some signature sounds.
Yes, the delay is missing, however you can set a delay curve as a source in the modulation matrix and envelope attack as destination. Changing the amount will increase or decrease the delay time. But this trick affects all the oscillators at once and is not a perfect emulation of the original hardware.

You can not select the waveforms for each oscillator individually. Rumble K2 serie can only hold 256 wave loop samples in groups of 4 oscillators, so the sample bank consistes of 64 * 4 wave loop samples.

The Rumble K2 Players are ment to play the default patches of the Kawai K1. Rumble K2 Builder will be released soon, which will be an true emulation of the Kawai K1, with also the delay function on board.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

dioxide wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Ok thanks. Is there any chance of getting a single device that emulates the K1? There isn't any reason that a single device could include a delay on each envelope is there? Or is this a limitation of the tools used to build this RE?

Generally I prefer a single device for an instrument for automation and Remote. Combis make sense for the multi patches but a single device would be better for the single patches / main instrument.
Building a delay function for the amp envelope is not a real problem and should be implemented in an update or in a new product.
Making a 4 oscillator synthesizer with the choice of loading one of the 256 waveloop samples for each oscillator is very hard with the IDT technology used. The main issue is that IDT technology is ment to build a sample player or rompler and is not really designed to build synthesizers. However, developer tools from the Props are in progress as we speak and perhaps I can make a design where it would be possible to make a true hardware emulation.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
Thank you very much for your thorough and careful explanations. I appreciate it! :)
Oenkenstein wrote:
07 Mar 2018
1. The K2 Player is besides a patch player a digital wavetable synthesizer just like the original Kawai K1. The main diffence between the two is that the Kawai provides 256 individual wave loops and Rumble K2 Player provides 64 presets holding 4 wave loops.
Could you elaborate how this differs from the original K1 and why you did this?
The original hardware has 4 oscillators and you can choose a basic waveloop from a bank holding 256 wave loop samples for each oscillator individually.
Rumble K2 Players have also 4 wave loop oscillators, but you choose 1 preset out of 64 from a sample preset bank, where each preset holds 4 wave loop samples.

In an early stage of development an 4 osc synth with the possibilty to choose from 256 wave loops led to timing issues, making the synth pretty useless.
I had to decide to build a synthesizer with just one oscillator loading all the basic 256 wave loops and / or build a synthesizer with 4 oscillators and work with a sample preset bank.
eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
4) Why were some of the original features (Envelope Delay, etc.) left out?
The envelope delay is the only function missing. All the other 38 functions are implemented. But I promise to release an update where a user can set the envelope delay and it's delay time.
eusti wrote:
07 Mar 2018
5) Am I correct in assuming that to recreate some of the original K1 sounds there would be a number of K2 instances in a combinator needed?

That's it for now... ;)

D.
The Kawai K1 has single instrument patches and multi instrument patches. To reproduce a single instrument you will need just one Rumble K2 Player device.
The multi instruments are build from several (up to 8) Rumble K2 Players attached to a mixer in a combinator patch.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

scratchnsnifff wrote:
07 Mar 2018
I might get one of these as they are more in my price range! I actually really like how the matrix is on the back, makes the user force to flip it around. Who knows maybe someone will get inspired by that simple feature. Now the only confusion is how additive synthesis is mentioned I understand how it is granular but where does additive synthesis come into play
Glad you like the modulation matrix on the back of the Rumble K2 Players. It was a suggestion made by one of the beta testers to make the RE smaller in height.

Rumble K1 is both a granular synthesizer and an additive wavetable synthesizer.
Rumble K2 Players are just additive wavetable synthesizers.

On the Rumble K1, you can choose between additive and granular with a combination of the Wave Loop Mode and Wave Loop Scroll.
When the mode is set to Off, Rumble K1 acts like an additive wavetable synthesizer.
When the mode is set to On or Quantize, Rumble K1 acts like a granular synthesizer.

In each mode you can set the Wave Loop Scroll percentage (Scrolling). Scrolling changes the start position of the Wave Loop sample.
- Mode Off: Plays the Wave Loop sample without looping. When you set the Scroll amount to 0, the Wave Loop sample will play from the start until the end. Set the Scroll amount to 50 and the Wave Loop sample starts halfway and plays until the end. With the Scroll amount set to 100, the last part or grain of the Wave Loop sample is played, but is always silent and produces no sound.
- Mode On: Plays a short part or grain of the Wave Loop sample looped, ideal for defining instruments.
- Mode Quant(ize), does the same as in On mode, but if set to "Quantized" the loop position is rounded
to the nearest multiple of the loop length, which is set to 337 samples.

More information about the synthesis methods used can be found in the K1 Operation Manual in chapter 1.2 and chapter 5.
http://www.oenkenstein.nl/uploadmap/Rum ... Manual.pdf

User avatar
dioxide
Posts: 1779
Joined: 15 Jul 2015

08 Mar 2018

Oenkenstein wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Building a delay function for the amp envelope is not a real problem and should be implemented in an update or in a new product.
Making a 4 oscillator synthesizer with the choice of loading one of the 256 waveloop samples for each oscillator is very hard with the IDT technology used. The main issue is that IDT technology is ment to build a sample player or rompler and is not really designed to build synthesizers. However, developer tools from the Props are in progress as we speak and perhaps I can make a design where it would be possible to make a true hardware emulation.
Oenkenstein wrote:
08 Mar 2018
In an early stage of development an 4 osc synth with the possibilty to choose from 256 wave loops led to timing issues, making the synth pretty useless.
I had to decide to build a synthesizer with just one oscillator loading all the basic 256 wave loops and / or build a synthesizer with 4 oscillators and work with a sample preset bank.
Okay, thanks for the explanation. Hopefully a future update to IDT will improve things.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

Thank you for taking the time with all those questions! :)

Bought it... I hope I can now sort out my authorizer issues to actually use it... ;)

D.

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

Ok. First thing coming to mind: Neat. I like it! I can adjust the factory sounds of the original K1 to my liking now... Very cool. Thanks for that!

First feature request: Can the tune parameter pop up for Sine and Super be something more descriptive than 50 or 0? I'm crappy at tuning things precisely by ear... Can we have semitones? Or are these cents?

D.

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

08 Mar 2018

eusti wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Ok. First thing coming to mind: Neat. I like it! I can adjust the factory sounds of the original K1 to my liking now... Very cool. Thanks for that!

First feature request: Can the tune parameter pop up for Sine and Super be something more descriptive than 50 or 0? I'm crappy at tuning things precisely by ear... Can we have semitones? Or are these cents?

D.
I think it is semitones, just count +/-12 for an octave.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
eusti
Moderator
Posts: 2793
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

08 Mar 2018

Loque wrote:
08 Mar 2018
eusti wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Ok. First thing coming to mind: Neat. I like it! I can adjust the factory sounds of the original K1 to my liking now... Very cool. Thanks for that!

First feature request: Can the tune parameter pop up for Sine and Super be something more descriptive than 50 or 0? I'm crappy at tuning things precisely by ear... Can we have semitones? Or are these cents?

D.
I think it is semitones, just count +/-12 for an octave.
Ok. Thanks. That is a bit confusing as "neutral" is 50...

D.

User avatar
Oenkenstein
RE Developer
Posts: 838
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

09 Mar 2018

eusti wrote:
08 Mar 2018
Loque wrote:
08 Mar 2018

I think it is semitones, just count +/-12 for an octave.
Ok. Thanks. That is a bit confusing as "neutral" is 50...

D.
The Sine Osc Tune has a range from 0 to 100 and the default value of 53 corresponds with 263.7 Hz and that is almost the note C3. The Sine Osc's tuning is not exactly pitched to middle C. It is out of tune with + 10 cents.

You can use the Sine Osc to thicken the sound of the the Wave Loops, as they mix together, but you also can use the Sine Osc as a source for Amplitude (AM) or Ring Modulation. In this case the Wave Loop Osc acts as the carrier and gets modulated by the Sine Osc. When the modulator is of subsonic frequency, the result is a slow or rapid variation in the volume level of the carrier signal which is referred to as tremolo. The frequency can be changed with the Tune knob. So, the AM or Ring Modulation in Rumble K2 works a bit different compared to the hardware equivalent.

The Super Osc Tune has also a range from 0 to 100, but has a scale in semi tones, just like the Wave Loop Tune.
Note that you can use the Super Osc's Tune, Amount and Detune knobs for the Sub Osc as well.

For now, you will need you ears, but I will add Hz and the amount of semi tones to the scale of these properties and add a proper visual scale around the knobs. But that is for the update I am busy with at moment.

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: ChulaCoola, DotNetDotCom.org [Bot] and 4 guests