How much can Expanse do that Europa can't?

This forum is for discussing Rack Extensions. Devs are all welcome to show off their goods.
DoctoralHermit
Posts: 77
Joined: 13 Dec 2017

27 Feb 2018

Hey all! I have a lot of REs but I don't have any sort of wavetable type thing yet other than Europa. I really like Europa and find myself using it all the time. I tried Parsec 2 when it was on sale two or three weeks ago, but it honestly didn't speak to me. This week I'm trying Nostromo and am really connecting to the instrument. I'm also on trial for Expanse, but it seems an awful lot like Europa to me. I don't think I can afford both Nostromo and Expanse, so I'm wondering... what does Expanse offer that Europa doesn't?

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

27 Feb 2018

The main thing that comes in my mind is, that eXpanse supports wavetable loading and has more wave shaping modifiers. The ring modulation and better FM routing are ice on the cake. Whereas Europa has some additions to the filters, which eXpanse doesnt has.

Somehow i like eXpanse more, but thats maybe i am already used to it. Both can produce quite similar sounds, but can also sound very different. Good to have both. You should note, that the things Nostromo can produce, can also be produced with eXpanse with the right wavetable and if you do not use all of Nostromo's filters and mod matrix slots. But it takes longer to get there. Tbh, if i had to chose, i would chose that gets me quicker to what i want and makes me feel more inspired.

Nostromo is very good for drones and pads, but can also produce hard FM leads, guitars, pianos and stuff, but may take you longer to get there. eXpanse and Europa are good for pads and drones too, but not the same as Nostromo is.

eXpanse is a good all around workhorse, same is for Europa. I get quickly hard sounds out of both, but more out of eXpanse. wheres eXpanse sometimes lacks a agressive attack imo and i need to give the sound some extra punch.

All three are very good synths, each with its special thing. Make a decision based on your feeling. You cannot do wrong.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
MikeMcKew
Moderator
Posts: 199
Joined: 16 Aug 2017
Location: Leesburg, VA
Contact:

27 Feb 2018

I usually think of Expanse of just having "more" than Europa. I absolutely love Europa, however, and I think it's a very capable synth. I don't have Nostromo so I can't help your conundrum, unfortunately! To answer your question:
  • 4 waveform engines
  • Ability to sample waveforms or import your own
  • 2 filters (Europa does have the Spectral Filter, though)
  • More filter types
  • Unison goes to 8 instead of 7
  • Tons more CV options on the back panel
  • 3 mod matrix destinations
  • Effects are more tweakable
I'm sure there's other stuff, I just opened up the two synths and started comparing! Pretty interesting, actually. There are also some things that Europa offers that Expanse doesn't, I'm sure - first thing that comes to mind is the Spectral Filter, and I tend to find the CPU usage more manageable on Europa (though Expanse does have sliders on the back that can help reduce CPU usage).

Anyway, this isn't an exhaustive list by any means, and I'm sure others will chime in with more differences. You can't go wrong either way though!
DoctoralHermit wrote:
27 Feb 2018
Hey all! I have a lot of REs but I don't have any sort of wavetable type thing yet other than Europa. I really like Europa and find myself using it all the time. I tried Parsec 2 when it was on sale two or three weeks ago, but it honestly didn't speak to me. This week I'm trying Nostromo and am really connecting to the instrument. I'm also on trial for Expanse, but it seems an awful lot like Europa to me. I don't think I can afford both Nostromo and Expanse, so I'm wondering... what does Expanse offer that Europa doesn't?

User avatar
theshoemaker
Posts: 595
Joined: 21 Nov 2015
Location: Germany
Contact:

27 Feb 2018

DoctoralHermit wrote:
27 Feb 2018
Hey all! I have a lot of REs but I don't have any sort of wavetable type thing yet other than Europa. I really like Europa and find myself using it all the time. I tried Parsec 2 when it was on sale two or three weeks ago, but it honestly didn't speak to me. This week I'm trying Nostromo and am really connecting to the instrument. I'm also on trial for Expanse, but it seems an awful lot like Europa to me. I don't think I can afford both Nostromo and Expanse, so I'm wondering... what does Expanse offer that Europa doesn't?
eXpanse is more versatile, but I doubt you are going to need it, but for very special cases. Europa has the more modern and clean interface + workflow. And is light on CPU compared to eXpanse. It comes at some extensibility price, but like I said, you probably don't need it. And from my experience, the filter section makes up for a lot of things you might get from eXpanse.

If it where for me, I'd saved the money I spent on the eXpanse sale and get R10 with Europa and Grain. Hardly use eXpanse. I even prefere Parsec over eXpanse. And I rellay love eXpanse. I just don't like it being heavy on CPU when scaling up a patch. The propellerheads devices are so well crafted regarding to performance ...
:PUF_figure: latest :reason: V12 on MacOS Ventura

User avatar
KirkMarkarian
Posts: 292
Joined: 13 Dec 2015
Location: Tucson, AZ
Contact:

27 Feb 2018

I'd use Europa over eXpanse any day - workflow is quick, has most of what eXpanse has, what it doesn't have, it makes up for in other ways. Nothing new to repeat here. eXpanse brings my poor little Mac Mini to it's knees (even with CPU reduction switches), where I can have a few Europa's doing some pretty neat things and it doesn't kill my computer. I have Nostromo, wish I could get a refund. I don't use most of the synths I've purchased - I'm now able to do most of the sounds I want to with Europa, Parsec, and Grain that I don't use it at all. Even when I use Europa, I don't bother with the "wavetable" section, I use the various synthesis parameters. I'm sure they're wavetable-based as well, but I prefer them to the section labeled "wavetable".

Parsec is another one of my go-to synths, mainly for FM'ish sounds. Yeah, I know it's an additive synth, but it does so much in the FM territory that I can't pass it up. Plus, like Europa, it's way easier on the 'ol CPU than any of the FM synths I use, and I have them all. Yeah, I could use Thor, but it sounds different to me.

Two Europa synths and a Parsec can make up an entire ambient track for me - I work in minimalism, so I prefer CPU-light synths that are not sample-playback machines. Heck, for 99% of my work, I even use Kong versus the same old 808/909 sounds. Place the sounds right, mix it nice, you'll get some amazing stuff!

If I really NEED the analog sounds that people want, I use the Jackbox 808/909, the ABL3 303, and the Megasaur synth - beautiful pads and leads from that one if you're willing to work with it. Even the paltry Subtractor does some beautiful analog sounds if you just fiddle with it :D

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

27 Feb 2018

theshoemaker wrote:
27 Feb 2018
I even prefere Parsec over eXpanse. And I rellay love eXpanse.
This is like "i prefere apples over oranges", they are completely different synth types and have different sculpt options. Its a matter of taste.
theshoemaker wrote:
27 Feb 2018
The propellerheads devices are so well crafted regarding to performance ...
If i do the same in Europa as in eXpanse it is even quite heavy on CPU like eXpanse. Put in all oscilators, add unisone, increase "release" time, enable all filters and modifiers and my machine is done.

The best thing to reduce the CPU usage in eXpanse (and also Europa) is having shorter "release" times and lower poly note number. eXpanse consumes CPU on high release times even if no audible sound is produced, that is why i cut down all related envelopes to the necessary time. Also reduce the switches on the backside of eXpanse, because sometimes a "dirty" sound sounds better than a clean one.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
aeox
Competition Winner
Posts: 3222
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

27 Feb 2018

Europa oscillator quality is still lacking. It's something I addressed during the beta, and was fixed to an extent, but any time I start saturating sounds from Europa the way I like, I start hearing this high pitch frequency that reminds me of the low quality sound of subtractor ( Even VK-2 has a similar quality to it on the lowest OSC setting)

As for features.. Europa shouldn't even be compared to eXpanse. They are in different leagues. Not that Europa is lacking features, it's good for what it is and has it's own unique features that eXpanse and other synths don't.

As for GUI.. Europa has a much cleaner and spaced out interface. Though I never let this kind of thing change the way my ears hear what's coming out of it.

I'm hoping by the time R11 is out, they fix the Europa oscillators. I'd love to have both Europa and Grain as my disposal.

User avatar
eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

27 Feb 2018

aeox wrote:
27 Feb 2018
Europa oscillator quality is still lacking. It's something I addressed during the beta, and was fixed to an extent, but any time I start saturating sounds from Europa the way I like, I start hearing this high pitch frequency that reminds me of the low quality sound of subtractor ( Even VK-2 has a similar quality to it on the lowest OSC setting)
This might not be related to the oscillators but the saturation/distortion itself. In the digital audio world a signal can get aliasing from not only oscillators but also filter and distortion since they can generate various overtones.

User avatar
aeox
Competition Winner
Posts: 3222
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

27 Feb 2018

eXode wrote:
27 Feb 2018
aeox wrote:
27 Feb 2018
Europa oscillator quality is still lacking. It's something I addressed during the beta, and was fixed to an extent, but any time I start saturating sounds from Europa the way I like, I start hearing this high pitch frequency that reminds me of the low quality sound of subtractor ( Even VK-2 has a similar quality to it on the lowest OSC setting)
This might not be related to the oscillators but the saturation/distortion itself. In the digital audio world a signal can get aliasing from not only oscillators but also filter and distortion since they can generate various overtones.
Would this still be the case even if I'm using a hardware analog saturation unit? (rhetorical :P) When I was testing Europa, I always got this high pitched aliasing sound whenever using the sawtooth wave, and only on the sawtooth wave.
Last edited by aeox on 27 Feb 2018, edited 1 time in total.

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

27 Feb 2018

expanse really excels in the bass department. the filters are mad different but expanse really wins in the oscillator and FM categories (in my experience these two topics make for a win for the bass category)
europa has more filter options due to the spectral filter
expanse, sure it has many filter and the EQ curve, but its not able to be programed in the combinator without some CV trickery
so yeah, get both! i love europa for sequences because expanse kills my cpu when making complex sequence patches
maybe if/when europa gets more wavetables either dynamic or normal, it will do better. all in all the importation of custom wavetables via spectral or crossfading is a modern feature sooooo over looked. expanse and europa are user-friendly and both are great at all types of sounds. like i said get both because where expanse will kill your cpu at times. you could remake the sound using europa and be able to achieve the same/similar results :)
maybe if europa gets those few additions like more wavetables and some workflow improvements it would only then be worth having JUST europa. but as of now its soooooooo worth having both. and honestly both are less cpu hungry than serum :)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

28 Feb 2018

If I had to use just one?Expanse.
But Europa built into reason 10 and is good for quick stuff.
If I feel like doing some extra stuff I load either the thor back up or use the Re synths.
Europa is more focused on the musical side and doesn't have as many CV ports as the older synths, so that's what I use that one for exclusively just the music.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

User avatar
selig
RE Developer
Posts: 11681
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

28 Feb 2018

aeox wrote:
eXode wrote:
27 Feb 2018
This might not be related to the oscillators but the saturation/distortion itself. In the digital audio world a signal can get aliasing from not only oscillators but also filter and distortion since they can generate various overtones.
Would this still be the case even if I'm using a hardware analog saturation unit? (rhetorical :P) When I was testing Europa, I always got this high pitched aliasing sound whenever using the sawtooth wave, and only on the sawtooth wave.
A better test may be to compare a totally raw saw wave from two different synths.
:)


Sent from some crappy device using Tapatalk
Selig Audio, LLC

User avatar
Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

28 Feb 2018

Everytime I see these comparisons, I think someone should make an electronic version of "anything you can do, I can do better" as the two synths battle it out in aural splendor.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

28 Feb 2018

Psuper wrote:
28 Feb 2018
Everytime I see these comparisons, I think someone should make an electronic version of "anything you can do, I can do better" as the two synths battle it out in aural splendor.
We should have a poll, with a few typical sounds created by different synths and ppl vote, what sounds best. Than 2 weeks later we gonn be enlighted, which synth it was :-)
Reason12, Win10

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

05 Mar 2018

My main nit picking thing with Europa is that there is a lot of un tapped potential regarding its oscilator/engines. It has so few wavetables, I know iv been on a tear about that with posts lately, but the more I use it the more I see what could have been, the drawing of a couple of waveforms sort of picks up that slack, but that’s what makes expanse a bit better in that category, expanses oscilator is literally a limitless source of audio because you can throw anything at it. Maybe the props will address its lightly packed number of tables, I did make sure to voice it during the beta but I assume they mainly look at performance and issues. I had a great session with Europa today and I love using the sine shaper, The sine shaper in Europa (the modifier) might be my favorite out of all the sine shapers in Reason. Not trying to sound like I’m bashing Europa, but it seems like it could use some final touches to really make it stand out
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

06 Mar 2018

scratchnsnifff wrote:
05 Mar 2018
My main nit picking thing with Europa is that there is a lot of un tapped potential regarding its oscilator/engines. It has so few wavetables, I know iv been on a tear about that with posts lately, but the more I use it the more I see what could have been, the drawing of a couple of waveforms sort of picks up that slack, but that’s what makes expanse a bit better in that category, expanses oscilator is literally a limitless source of audio because you can throw anything at it. Maybe the props will address its lightly packed number of tables, I did make sure to voice it during the beta but I assume they mainly look at performance and issues. I had a great session with Europa today and I love using the sine shaper, The sine shaper in Europa (the modifier) might be my favorite out of all the sine shapers in Reason. Not trying to sound like I’m bashing Europa, but it seems like it could use some final touches to really make it stand out
A few more default for the wave editor which I can morph would be really great. I also like like to have a free hand painting mode or a random function.
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
eXode
Posts: 838
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

06 Mar 2018

Loque wrote:
06 Mar 2018
I also like like to have a free hand painting mode or a random function.
Europa has a free mode, if you enble the X/Y display button (bottom left of Europa MSEG display) and hold ctrl while "drawing". :)

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

06 Mar 2018

eXode wrote:
06 Mar 2018
Loque wrote:
06 Mar 2018
I also like like to have a free hand painting mode or a random function.
Europa has a free mode, if you enble the X/Y display button (bottom left of Europa MSEG display) and hold ctrl while "drawing". :)
Thx :thumbs_up:

And when does eXpanse get this? ;)
Reason12, Win10

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

06 Mar 2018

eXode wrote:
06 Mar 2018
Loque wrote:
06 Mar 2018
I also like like to have a free hand painting mode or a random function.
Europa has a free mode, if you enble the X/Y display button (bottom left of Europa MSEG display) and hold ctrl while "drawing". :)
And it’s learning little things like this as to why I love the props livestreams :D will we ever get to see a blamsoft exode livestream on any future releases ;)
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
Loque
Moderator
Posts: 11163
Joined: 28 Dec 2015

06 Mar 2018

scratchnsnifff wrote:
06 Mar 2018
eXode wrote:
06 Mar 2018


Europa has a free mode, if you enble the X/Y display button (bottom left of Europa MSEG display) and hold ctrl while "drawing". :)
And it’s learning little things like this as to why I love the props livestreams :D will we ever get to see a blamsoft exode livestream on any future releases ;)
Muuuaahhhaaaa!
Reason12, Win10

User avatar
QVprod
Moderator
Posts: 3486
Joined: 15 Jan 2015
Contact:

06 Mar 2018

scratchnsnifff wrote:
06 Mar 2018
eXode wrote:
06 Mar 2018


Europa has a free mode, if you enble the X/Y display button (bottom left of Europa MSEG display) and hold ctrl while "drawing". :)
And it’s learning little things like this as to why I love the props livestreams :D will we ever get to see a blamsoft exode livestream on any future releases ;)
Sounds like a great topic. Could even make a Reasontalk event out of it if you'd like. Explain wavetable synthesis while also showcasing the differences between Expanse and Europa. What do you think eXode?

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

06 Mar 2018

QVprod wrote:
06 Mar 2018
scratchnsnifff wrote:
06 Mar 2018


And it’s learning little things like this as to why I love the props livestreams :D will we ever get to see a blamsoft exode livestream on any future releases ;)
Sounds like a great topic. Could even make a Reasontalk event out of it if you'd like. Explain wavetable synthesis while also showcasing the differences between Expanse and Europa. What do you think eXode?
as long as i get props for mentioning the idea :D hahaha jk, but
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DO THIS!!!!! tell the props, maybe they would even share the event and it could be a huge thing? a sort of promo for rack extensions and just reason in general? i know that reason users would love it. even if its a lifestream on just expanse, blamsoft hasn't really done any promo tutorial videos except for their commercials. and I'm always learning stuff about expanse, like the fact that you can use the numbers as steps in a sequence to modulate things like the filter or the position!! crazy deep synth that is!
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
aeox
Competition Winner
Posts: 3222
Joined: 23 Feb 2017
Location: Oregon

06 Mar 2018

scratchnsnifff wrote:
06 Mar 2018
blamsoft hasn't really done any promo tutorial videos except for their commercials.
The product really speaks for itself :)

scratchnsnifff
Posts: 1423
Joined: 21 Sep 2016

06 Mar 2018

aeox wrote:
06 Mar 2018
scratchnsnifff wrote:
06 Mar 2018
blamsoft hasn't really done any promo tutorial videos except for their commercials.
The product really speaks for itself :)
Indeed, still I’m one for a livestream for any and every reason lol
Mayor of plucktown :evil:

User avatar
Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

13 Mar 2018

Give it a wavetable loader and you basically had red expanse built into reason
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests