When did U-he exit RE development?

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esselfortium
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17 Feb 2018

That's true, I don't actually know for sure what led to the decision. Sorry!
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dvdrtldg
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17 Feb 2018

I took advantage of that crossgrade option recently and grabbed VST versions of all the Uhbik REs. Haven't had a chance to stress test them yet, can anyone confirm that the VSTs are significantly lighter on CPU than their RE counterparts?

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joeyluck
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17 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018
esselfortium wrote:
17 Feb 2018


I'm seeing u-he's VSTs in the shop, but not any of their REs anymore. It's a shame that some bad interactions years ago led to this.
Can we really be sure this was his primary motivation? Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.
Yeah. What we do know is that at that time Urs had a thought of removing them, mostly because he couldn't support them (having lost the dev that did the work on them). So just from a customer support side of things...and like a good developer who wants to offer good support, this bothered him. But ultimately he decided to keep them in the shop (at that time). Especially since plenty of people liked the REs (and pleaded with him) and they were the only option for Reason users at the time. Now VSTs are possible. It would be cool if there was an 'advanced Reason user' section of the shop in which you could get the REs...because there is slightly a bit more creativity to be had with the built-in CV inputs of the REs over the assignable CV inputs on the VST device. But of course, you can't have people unknowingly buying a version of the plugin that isn't supported when they can get one that is.

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dioxide
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17 Feb 2018

One thing to bear in mind with this kind of product removal is that it could make collaboration difficult. If a product's development has ended but the product is still available to buy, then someone can buy it to use in a collaboration. Without that then you're back to bouncing down audio. As the copy protection is effective with REs, you don't have the option to find a crack as a workaround.

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wendylou
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17 Feb 2018

Rason wrote:
17 Feb 2018
High, sorry but I can still see the u-he products in the shop..?!? Btw was it really Theo who made them quit RE...I believe Ive seen him nagging around other devs also. Shouldnt be a reaason to give it up.
Those are only U-he VST products, no Rack Extensions are available.

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ljekio
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18 Feb 2018

Bad history.
Second big "political" fail of the company (first was with Line6).

seqoi
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18 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018
esselfortium wrote:
17 Feb 2018


I'm seeing u-he's VSTs in the shop, but not any of their REs anymore. It's a shame that some bad interactions years ago led to this.
Can we really be sure this was his primary motivation? Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.
You can struggle but he (Urs CEO of U-he) specifically said (on KVR forum) at the end of that drama and AFTER he removed these plugins - that the last thing he need is internet filled with pages about his plugins being inefficient. So no it's not speculation and you are free to find that post of him but it was years ago so it will take time. I am sure he does not remove his words so it's there in KVR database.

I remember that thread clearly because i was shocked on how some users can be insane and harass developers. I don't know what was that person name but i remember he was banned several times from there he even had some fight with Propellerheads themselves.

As i see it it's not one or two users. It's combination of bad drama + RE SDK limit. Yes this user was vocal and insane and despite the fact Urs explained him what was problem (RE SDK - Urs was even specific and told him which CPU instructions or lack of in RE SDK are causing RE to be less efficient then his VST version in that thread you will find in KVR database).

It was combination of people being vocal (read insane) about his company writing inefficient plugins + not having option to improve RE versions (back then) to be on pair with VST regarding performance. So he had enough of it and stopped crap right in root itself. I guess he cared for company profile picture which is completely logical to me. I don't blame him if i had successfully company - last thing i would want is some crazy people calling my products bad because my company produced them while in reality my company could not deal with the issue because it was 3rd party RE SDK limit.

If you follow Urs you will see he is not calm or polite whenever someone attack his company for no factual reason. He said several times if there is an issue caused by them he will admit and fix it but he will not let pissing on his company for no reason. I completely support him because he is not selling snake oil he sell exactly what is described. If you don't believe me about his behavior and how he stand for his company there was a flame thread recently (and about 99% of people supported him)

This is Urs quote (which again i fully respect): Regarding business, I made the opposite experience. When I let these things go, they come back. If I let this go, someone will read it and someone will post the same stupid stuff elsewhere. It happens. Hence, I never let this kind of aggression go.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=114


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=110

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... stcount=47

It was in interesting thread.

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miscend
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18 Feb 2018

dioxide wrote:
17 Feb 2018
One thing to bear in mind with this kind of product removal is that it could make collaboration difficult. If a product's development has ended but the product is still available to buy, then someone can buy it to use in a collaboration. Without that then you're back to bouncing down audio. As the copy protection is effective with REs, you don't have the option to find a crack as a workaround.
That’s true. However at least they offered a cross grade to the VST. So you can use the VSTs for collaboration.

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Gorgon
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18 Feb 2018

"You can't even make two wooden snare drums "sound the same", so how could lines of code sound the same as a physical box made from transistors and wires?"

Lol. That Tui guy is a prime candidate for the flat earth society.
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QVprod
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18 Feb 2018

seqoi wrote:
18 Feb 2018
selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018


Can we really be sure this was his primary motivation? Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.
You can struggle but he (Urs CEO of U-he) specifically said (on KVR forum) at the end of that drama and AFTER he removed these plugins - that the last thing he need is internet filled with pages about his plugins being inefficient.
Actually your last sentence agrees with selig’s statement. His REs weren't removed because of one user harassing him. There were bugs that will never be fixed and optimizations that would never happen. Essentially discontinuing RE development prevents situations like that thread from happening but I’m sure he was already close to that decision before the thread. As per his comments posted earlier they weren’t removed until subscriptions were announced to developers which makes removal years after that thread.

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selig
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18 Feb 2018

seqoi wrote:
selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018


Can we really be sure this was his primary motivation? Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.
You can struggle but he (Urs CEO of U-he) specifically said (on KVR forum) at the end of that drama and AFTER he removed these plugins - that the last thing he need is internet filled with pages about his plugins being inefficient. So no it's not speculation and you are free to find that post of him but it was years ago so it will take time. I am sure he does not remove his words so it's there in KVR database.

I remember that thread clearly because i was shocked on how some users can be insane and harass developers. I don't know what was that person name but i remember he was banned several times from there he even had some fight with Propellerheads themselves.

As i see it it's not one or two users. It's combination of bad drama + RE SDK limit. Yes this user was vocal and insane and despite the fact Urs explained him what was problem (RE SDK - Urs was even specific and told him which CPU instructions or lack of in RE SDK are causing RE to be less efficient then his VST version in that thread you will find in KVR database).

It was combination of people being vocal (read insane) about his company writing inefficient plugins + not having option to improve RE versions (back then) to be on pair with VST regarding performance. So he had enough of it and stopped crap right in root itself. I guess he cared for company profile picture which is completely logical to me. I don't blame him if i had successfully company - last thing i would want is some crazy people calling my products bad because my company produced them while in reality my company could not deal with the issue because it was 3rd party RE SDK limit.

If you follow Urs you will see he is not calm or polite whenever someone attack his company for no factual reason. He said several times if there is an issue caused by them he will admit and fix it but he will not let pissing on his company for no reason. I completely support him because he is not selling snake oil he sell exactly what is described. If you don't believe me about his behavior and how he stand for his company there was a flame thread recently (and about 99% of people supported him)

This is Urs quote (which again i fully respect): Regarding business, I made the opposite experience. When I let these things go, they come back. If I let this go, someone will read it and someone will post the same stupid stuff elsewhere. It happens. Hence, I never let this kind of aggression go.

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=114


https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... tcount=110

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/showpos ... stcount=47

It was in interesting thread.
OK, still, an odd and extremely uncommon “solution” to user complaints. [emoji6]

EDIT: my point was that it HAD to be more than the complaints of a few users, which you seem to be confirming.


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Gorgon
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18 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
18 Feb 2018
OK, still, an odd and extremely uncommon “solution” to user complaints. [emoji6]

EDIT: my point was that it HAD to be more than the complaints of a few users, which you seem to be confirming.


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Some idiot making false claims is not exactly a "user complaint".
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selig
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18 Feb 2018

Gorgon wrote:
selig wrote:
18 Feb 2018
OK, still, an odd and extremely uncommon “solution” to user complaints. [emoji6]

EDIT: my point was that it HAD to be more than the complaints of a few users, which you seem to be confirming.


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Some idiot making false claims is not exactly a "user complaint".
OK, does my comment make any more or less sense if I substitute one for the other? What other examples can you provide showing this response (pulling your products) as being effective? Folks are blaming “some idiot” for these REs no longer being in the store. I say there has to be more behind this. What do you think?

EDIT: there are thousands of “idiots” making false claims about products every day - how many are pulled from the market because of this?

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stratatonic
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18 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018

Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.


Urs did post this a while back in a Sept '16 KVR thread not even about REs but about iLok ... a 25+ page KVR classic that morphed off on yet another stupid f**king tangent.

THEO RUINS UHE REs.jpeg
THEO RUINS UHE REs.jpeg (45.71 KiB) Viewed 5718 times
(I had taken a screenshot of this because I was a bit shocked and thought maybe he would cool down and edit it ... the next time I revisited the thread, the whole thread had been vaporized from existence).btw...this is from a reply to Urs post....the " [TheoM] " was added to identify the "you" he was referring to (TheoM...who else?)...the rest of reply is what Urs had posted. Thought I had it somewhere. (For sure TheoM would have it...I remember him saying he had screenshots of a lot of stuff :) )

So, yes, he officially blamed TheoM for crippling RE revenue, but not for getting out. Unless he did and that KVR thread was vaporized as well... :roll:

I also don't believe that a single poster can bring down a product line. Too many threads and stuff gets lost over time. You could also believe that the poster was overbearing and full of baloney and eventually just not believe anything he wrote if you happened to be reading that thread on that particular day(s).

Anyways, U-he likely makes more money selling a VST Uhbik bundle on his site to one Reason owner, than to have 1000 Reason users grab a few of his REs on subscription here and there. Having no option to use Uhbik REs forces users to buy from his site.

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selig
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18 Feb 2018

stratatonic wrote:
selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018

Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

I struggle with the idea that the opinion of one (or two) users, no matter how it was expressed, would cause a developer to drop an entire line of products and throw away all chances of recouping on their investment. Common sense would say there would have to be more to such an important (and uncommon) decision.


Urs did post this a while back in a Sept '16 KVR thread not even about REs but about iLok ... a 25+ page KVR classic that morphed off on yet another stupid f**king tangent.

THEO RUINS UHE REs.jpeg
(I had taken a screenshot of this because I was a bit shocked and thought maybe he would cool down and edit it ... the next time I revisited the thread, the whole thread had been vaporized from existence).btw...this is from a reply to Urs post....the " [TheoM] " was added to identify the "you" he was referring to (TheoM...who else?)...the rest of reply is what Urs had posted. Thought I had it somewhere. (For sure TheoM would have it...I remember him saying he had screenshots of a lot of stuff :) )

So, yes, he officially blamed TheoM for crippling RE revenue, but not for getting out. Unless he did and that KVR thread was vaporized as well... :roll:

I also don't believe that a single poster can bring down a product line. Too many threads and stuff gets lost over time. You could also believe that the poster was overbearing and full of baloney and eventually just not believe anything he wrote if you happened to be reading that thread on that particular day(s).

Anyways, U-he likely makes more money selling a VST Uhbik bundle on his site to one Reason owner, than to have 1000 Reason users grab a few of his REs on subscription here and there. Having no option to use Uhbik REs forces users to buy from his site.
I’m not suggesting Theo alone was not blamed for this (though I’m surprised he was the only one blamed), I’m suggesting there’s more to the story of why the REs are not in the store.

Again, we are all speculating about the why, and while speculation is fun, it’s no substitute for the facts!


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18 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I’m not suggesting Theo alone was not blamed for this (though I’m surprised he was the only one blamed), I’m suggesting there’s more to the story of why the REs are not in the store.

Again, we are all speculating about the why, and while speculation is fun, it’s no substitute for the facts!
The only other part of the story was: Clemens left U-He. Clemens was Urs' RE-SDK guy, and without him (and adding the drama of the aforementioned thread), Urs threw in the towel.

That said, you being a dev - you always know there's more to the story. ;) Clearly the Uhbik RE's weren't generating enough revenue for him to assign Clemens' replacement the RE-SDK and continue. The most logical conclusion is: not making enough money to be worth their time/trouble.
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selig
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18 Feb 2018

EnochLight wrote:
selig wrote:
18 Feb 2018
I’m not suggesting Theo alone was not blamed for this (though I’m surprised he was the only one blamed), I’m suggesting there’s more to the story of why the REs are not in the store.

Again, we are all speculating about the why, and while speculation is fun, it’s no substitute for the facts!
The only other part of the story was: Clemens left U-He. Clemens was Urs' RE-SDK guy, and without him (and adding the drama of the aforementioned thread), Urs threw in the towel.

That said, you being a dev - you always know there's more to the story. ;) Clearly the Uhbik RE's weren't generating enough revenue for him to assign Clemens' replacement the RE-SDK and continue. I honestly can't think of any reason other than: not making enough money to be worth their time/trouble.
That would explain why no more NEW REs. But how to explain taking them out of the shop?


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scratchnsnifff
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18 Feb 2018

I absolutely love my uhbik bundles, but as for urs posting like that I must say it does seem a bit unprofessional. Sure he is amazing at his work! But I can’t say I have ever seen a company throw dirt at users/trolls/potential customers. Also to his defense, making the Res sounds like a lot of work which takes a lot of time. But this is the internet, and everyone on forums should be able to understand the whole concept of keyboard warriors. I’ll always use my uhbik F, and maybe get zebra as well. But I guess my main point is an old saying. If you don’t have anything nice to say, don’t say it at all :p I suppose I see it as a missed opportunity as the sdk does allow for some fancy programming these days, we finally pages, sample import, drag and drop etc, it’s even sadder to myself because i feel like if he got on board nowadays instead of back then, it may have been a better outcome
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18 Feb 2018

selig wrote:
18 Feb 2018
EnochLight wrote:
The only other part of the story was: Clemens left U-He. Clemens was Urs' RE-SDK guy, and without him (and adding the drama of the aforementioned thread), Urs threw in the towel.

That said, you being a dev - you always know there's more to the story. ;) Clearly the Uhbik RE's weren't generating enough revenue for him to assign Clemens' replacement the RE-SDK and continue. I honestly can't think of any reason other than: not making enough money to be worth their time/trouble.
That would explain why no more NEW REs. But how to explain taking them out of the shop?


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I think In the email they sent for the cross grade it said something about discontinuing their products, i thought they were going to get pulled after they offered everyone the discounts/free vst cross grade
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EnochLight
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18 Feb 2018

I don't know if Thomas Helzle is still with U-He, but he was the guy who did the GUI/UX part of the RE's. The mockup he did of Satin RE (when it was still a planned product back in the day) looked pretty sweet:


Satin_Mockup_4_RealSize.jpg
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Gorgon
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18 Feb 2018

All this talk made me break out Runciter earlier today. WOW. What a filter.
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Faastwalker
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18 Feb 2018

adfielding wrote:
17 Feb 2018
Uhbik-A is still one of my main go-to reverb units, and Uhbik-G is great for quick and tasty granular effects (and yeah, we've got Grain, but they both operate in very different ways).
Same here. I love Uhbik-A. It gets a lot of criticism because of the export issue. But it sounds great. Uhbik-G is fantastic. Love that RE to bits. One of my favorites. It's totally bonkers, sounds amazing & is really easy to use & understand. So much fun to play around with. That's true of most of the Uhbiks. I'm just gutted I didn't buy them all before they left the shop.

Going forward - are the ones we have likely to be broken by future Reason updates? I hope not. I love them. Can get them as VST I guess. But I always prefer to use RE where possible for the Reason integration. It disappointing UH-E Re's are gone whatever the reason was. Same for a lot of the excellent RE developers that have fallen off the radar. We're lucky we have so many excellent RE developers still putting out excellent devices. Long may it continue. RE FTW.

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EnochLight
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18 Feb 2018

Faastwalker wrote:
18 Feb 2018
Going forward - are the ones we have likely to be broken by future Reason updates?
While it's not completely out of the realm of possibility, it's extremely unlikely. The entire point of RE's is to remain compatible with Reason going forward, no matter the update nor OS platform. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
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dvdrtldg
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18 Feb 2018

Gorgon wrote:
18 Feb 2018
All this talk made me break out Runciter earlier today. WOW. What a filter.
It's a beast alright

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O1B
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18 Feb 2018

Image
Did you read over on that forum. Little doubt remains...

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selig wrote:
17 Feb 2018
Can we really be sure this was his primary motivation? Has he ever officially said that Theo (or that PUF thread in general) is the single reason he is out of the RE business? Apologies if this is common knowledge - otherwise, we are all just speculating, right?

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