Ochen K?

[QVprod]

But selling single REs in the shop vs including them in a Reason upgrade is quite different from a competition viewpoint, as a RE developer you cannot compete with that, period. But sure, I'm still willing to accept that.

However considering props appraisal of the RE platform we had no real clues about VST plugins or the subscriptions (just look at ReSpire), in fact I'd go so far to say that they were not being completely honest about their perception of the RE platforms succes (or lack thereof). If REs were so sucessful I doubt we would have seen VST support, or subscriptions for that matter. Subs is probably just an attempt at trying to gain interest in the platform after opening up to VST, at developers cost. Too early to draw conclusions? Sure but declining overall sales plus minuscule revenue from subs doesn't make for a good outset.

I understand they are a business, but how about not keeping RE developers in the dark, so that they too can make informed business decisions.

I suppose there is the factor that the crowd of Reason users who barely knew what VSTs were before 9.5 are now exploring other opportunities which would affect sales for RE. As far as success of REs I suppose the definition of that may have shifted as there aren't many big players actively involved anymore.CV based devices might still be selling being the only thing pretty much unaffected by VST. That said I think overall sales loss for some developers has a lot to do with the many things happening this year. Both the addition of VST support and Reason 10 releasing in the same year would of course have a noticeable affect on sales. I feel there's a chance that will shift in the near future.

If the product is good, people will want it, even if they already have something similar. Enthusiasts tend to acquire multiples of the same thing. So they included a wavetable synth in Reason 10. There are still things say Expanse does differently and so there are people who will still buy it just like they buy multiple Moog emulations. Subscriptions as of now probably haven't caused much harm, but of course that's not something you can really tell much about yet. I honestly don't think subscriptions will be popular enough to prevent people from buying REs, but rather the opposite; bringing a bit of (possibly minuscule or maybe decent) income from people who probably wouldn't have made purchases anyway. I think a better picture will be painted in January/February about how things are moving. I'll say though the faster the SDK catches up to VST capabilities, the better it will be for RE devs.

[Adabler]

I suppose there is the factor that the crowd of Reason users who barely knew what VSTs were before 9.5 are now exploring other opportunities which would affect sales for RE. As far as success of REs I suppose the definition of that may have shifted as there aren't many big players actively involved anymore.
(...)
If the product is good, people will want it, even if they already have something similar. Enthusiasts tend to acquire multiples of the same thing. So they included a wavetable synth in Reason 10. There are still things say Expanse does differently and so there are people who will still buy it just like they buy multiple Moog emulations. (...)

This rings true for me.

I have been using reason in some capacity for many years but never got into rack extensions before summer this year. At the same time I checked out some VSTs, although only free ones, and thought it to be much less appealing than REs. I like the reason rack, it gives me a sense of space so to speak and REs fits that illusion much better than VSTs.

While browsing through this: www.reasonistas.com/i-use-reason

I found this:

That (marketing) video is so happy compared to this thread. I guess those are some of the big players you are referring to? In any case, I really hope things work out, for devs, PH and my wish list.

[jayhosking]

This is getting out of control.

VST support and some smaller monthly fee for REs were two of the features most commonly discussed on this forum. Either by a vocal minority or a true majority, they are what people here wanted out of Reason. I'm not a fan of any subscription-based/rental/rent-to-own service, and so I didn't love this one, but the VST support has been nice, yeah. But again, the entire point of VSTs for me is to support the actual in-rack REs that I want to use. I wouldn't want to use VSTs at all if there were equivalent options in the RE market.

I hear that some of the developers are unhappy here. I don't know what to say. I bought your shit. I supported you. I'm going to buy more today or tomorrow. If you make more REs, I will buy them as well. If you sell small $5 refills with some new patches (especially by the likes of eXode), I will buy those regularly because they help me understand the instrument in new ways.

There is so much untapped potential in the RE market. Where's the horns/woodwinds/solo instruments/etc. equivalent of Stringwerk? Tape emulation? Pianos with different characters and tone? (God, there is a dearth of pianos.) Acoustic drums? NNXT clones with dials that aren't the size of pinheads and with readable fonts? Compressors that show the information differently, like the Renaissance compressor from Waves?

There are a million interesting filters in eXpanse, so why not just cut that part out of the unit and release it so I can apply it to anything? How about the effects section of eXpanse as a unit, so I don't have to pull up an RE that takes up too much virtual (and psychological space) in the rack?

I would buy all of these REs and so many more. Plus there are so many other forms of music-making that I hadn't even imagined, like Proton, that, when I get my hands on it, I can't live without. And while I keep telling myself "no more subtractive synths", I'm sure I'll buy a RE of an Oberheim or whatever else if it shows up.

I love Reason. I love the additions to Reason 10, even if the Kong patches aren't named as well as they could be (that one's for you, JPS). Europa and Grain rule. And I love eXpanse and Proton. And the Legend. And VK-2. And Kraft. And on and on and on. If you make unique content that we want, there are those of us who will buy it and support you. There are also some of us (a couple of my friends for example) who will never touch the RE market (or VSTs) unless they're free, because they feel they paid enough for the software and it should do everything they want. I was one of those people until Ochen K got his hooks into me with Chip64, and I've never looked back. Chip64 is actually the perfect example of why I love REs: small, focused on doing one thing well, and reasonably priced barrier to entry.

So if there are enough of us buying for you to continue making REs, then I hope you do so. Because the RE market is far from saturated, has obvious holes in it, and is always my first choice before VSTs.

[avasopht]

I know of no other format where as a developer you build once and that build, without sharing the source code, can be compiled for virtually any platform.

JUCE.

While it's lovely that we can code so easily for both Windows and OSX without needed and test on both, and I don't know the full details and the processes required, VST devs can and do use cross-platform systems like JUCE. Even Pirkle has RackAFX, in the books we all use, for VST/AU. So that's two cross-platform formats without even thinking hard about it, so your comment there shows a bizarre lack of knowledge, at best. Advantage RE in some respects, clearly, but it's demonstrably not unique in terms of Windows and OSX.

And in any case, apart from Windows and OSX, what other platforms is Reason available on? Linux? No, it's not even on Linux.

Thus "virtually any platform" (which most pointedly is not the same as "any or all other platforms in reality"!) is a moot point if you're not utilising that ability, so that makes zero difference to either RE sales or subscriptions today. Until such time you make Reason available on other platforms, and REs all succesfully compile and run on them, you're marketing in hypotheticals.

You've greatly misunderstood the difference between the RE's platform agnostic LLVM bytecode output and JUCE's cross platform library.

With JUCE you cannot compile a build ONCE, and without sharing that SOURCE code have your BUILD then compiled for virtually any platform in the future. This functionality depends on ongoing support from the host developer for future platforms by the way. JUCE would need a major revision for this to be possible.

What the RE SDK does that is not offered elsewhere is actual platform agnostic bytecode OUTPUT (which does not require supplying sourcecode), which can then target practically any CPU target, while not being dependent on any specific OS calls for access to files or persisting state.

This enables Propellerhead to accept binary submissions (so you don't have to send them your sourcecode), provide support for a target OS, and immediately all Rack Extensions are compatible.

LLVM bytecode can be compiled to practically any platform (practically being a practically meaningless disclaimer as any theoretically incompatible target would be equally unfeasible for Reason anyway, or any other DAW for that matter). It's why LLVM bytecode is an intermediary format to webassembly and asm.JS. It's not just marketing guff and hypotheticals (on the technical possibility at least), it's just the nature of intermediate bytecode. And the RE spec is lean enough for them to not have tripped themselves up either, so I don't think the skepticism of being able to support other platforms is warranted from a technical perspective.

Agreed that it is moot if never utilised.

[sdst]

while I see a developer that leaves and don't put his REs for free .

is because he's still interested in REs .lol

[WongoTheSane]

I hear that some of the developers are unhappy here. I don't know what to say. I bought your shit. I supported you. I'm going to buy more today or tomorrow. If you make more REs, I will buy them as well. If you sell small $5 refills with some new patches (especially by the likes of eXode), I will buy those regularly because they help me understand the instrument in new ways.

This. And as chimp_spanner said in another thread:

You know you've f***ed up when most of the items in the sale don't have prices on them.

I'm particularly sad at eXode and JP's gloomy point of view, because chances are I'll buy anything they care to create. That makes two of us already! C'mon guys, the market is there!

[xtal909]

For any RE developers reading this, I'm still gonna buy the REs that interests me. I'm not really interested in the subscription model.
Also I'd much rather buy REs than VSTs. So for me the RE format is far from dead.

I really hope not every RE developer quits. I'm sure more people feel the same way, right?

Agree 100%. The subscription model is maybe only worth it for those super expensive REs or to use it as another trial tool. I just don't see subscriptions being worth it longer-term.

As far as VSTs are concerned - I am not interested at this point and haven't bought any this weekend. I love the RE concept and there is more than plenty out there to provide limitless music creation possibilities.

[joeyluck]

For any RE developers reading this, I'm still gonna buy the REs that interests me. I'm not really interested in the subscription model.
Also I'd much rather buy REs than VSTs. So for me the RE format is far from dead.

I really hope not every RE developer quits. I'm sure more people feel the same way, right?

Agree 100%. The subscription model is maybe only worth it for those super expensive REs or to use it as another trial tool. I just don't see subscriptions being worth it longer-term.

Well, it's easier for many of us who are not-new to Reason and Rack Extensions to look at it this way.
But if you're a new customer just coming to Reason, regularly renewed plans (and the larger plans) might be more tempting and worthwhile.

[TritoneAddiction]

Agree 100%. The subscription model is maybe only worth it for those super expensive REs or to use it as another trial tool. I just don't see subscriptions being worth it longer-term.

Well, it's easier for many of us who are not-new to Reason and Rack Extensions to look at it this way.
But if you're a new customer just coming to Reason, regularly renewed plans (and the larger plans) might be more tempting and worthwhile.

Might be right. But still for me personally, the concept of subscribing/renting is not as appealing as owning/making one purchase. I would feel this way even if I started out fresh or got into some other program that required me to start over.

I still think most people who will use the subscription model will use as it some sort of long trial before eventually buying what they like the most. Could be wrong though.

I don't think developers should make too drastic assumptions yet and quit REs or sell them for practically nothing just because the subscription model is available. I'm actually a bit worried when I see that Blamsoft and Synapse Audio (Synapse Collection Bundle) for example sells their stuff super cheap right now during the sale. I think it devalues their products too much. I understand if that seems strange coming from a customer, but if I look at it long term I'm not sure that's a good thing for the RE market or developers. But what the hell do I know?

[joeyluck]

Well, it's easier for many of us who are not-new to Reason and Rack Extensions to look at it this way.
But if you're a new customer just coming to Reason, regularly renewed plans (and the larger plans) might be more tempting and worthwhile.

Might be right. But still for me personally, the concept of subscribing/renting is not as appealing as owning/making one purchase. I would feel this way even if I started out fresh or got into some other program that required me to start over.

True. But it's similar to why there is appeal for me in subscribing to the EastWest Composer Cloud. Although, that idea has been put on the shelf as I'm occupied with the SWAM string bundle I just picked up Very impressed with it

I still think most people who will use the subscription model will use as it some sort of long trial before eventually buying what they like the most. Could be wrong though.

I agree. I think most people will drop things from their subscription and buy it when they feel they will use it more. And those who drop something and move on, I don't see that as a loss if they wouldn't have bought it anyways without subscriptions in place.

I don't think developers should make too drastic assumptions yet and quit REs or sell them for practically nothing just because the subscription model is available. I'm actually a bit worried when I see that Blamsoft and Synapse Audio (Synapse Collection Bundle) for example sells their stuff super cheap right now during the sale. I think it devalues their products too much. I understand if that seems strange coming from a customer, but if I look at it long term I'm not sure that's a good thing for the RE market or developers. But what the hell do I know?

Well prices do get pushed down as plugins get older and the potential market becomes smaller (since customers can't buy a plugin a second time). A synth like Antidote which has been around quite some time is heavily discounted, while Legend (although was on sale recently) is not on sale now and has only been on sale that one time. Because it's newer, it's got plenty of buzz across DAWs, and it's probably still selling plenty well at it's nice round price. I also think some developers set regular prices with sales in mind.

[etyrnal]

I'm not going to quote all the above to reply to a tiny part of it.

My view is that introducing vsts was maybe necessary but RE devs should have known way before the introduction to give their businesses time to adapt and diversify.

Subscriptors and subscriptees seems like pimps and sex traders to me. No way out. No choice.

I've had nothing but bad luck with running vsts in reason. I hate them. And I have gone through my plugins folder to get rid of as many of them as I possibly can. I love the rack extensions because they are stable and efficient in most cases. Hopefully when people use the fact that reason now supports vsts to jump over to the reason ship, realize how much more smoothly rack extensions run compared to VST

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[EnochLight]

I'm not going to quote all the above to reply to a tiny part of it.

My view is that introducing vsts was maybe necessary but RE devs should have known way before the introduction to give their businesses time to adapt and diversify.

Subscriptors and subscriptees seems like pimps and sex traders to me. No way out. No choice.

I've had nothing but bad luck with running vsts in reason. I hate them. And I have gone through my plugins folder to get rid of as many of them as I possibly can. I love the rack extensions because they are stable and efficient in most cases. Hopefully when people use the fact that reason now supports vsts to jump over to the reason ship, realize how much more smoothly rack extensions run compared to VST

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Well, to play devil's advocate - VST run perfectly fine in most other DAW, for the most part. So maybe its Reason's VST implementation that needs to be fixed? Just say'n... Still, that's not a good way to steer customers towards RE's, IMHO.

[Psuper]

I've had nothing but bad luck with running vsts in reason. I hate them. And I have gone through my plugins folder to get rid of as many of them as I possibly can. I love the rack extensions because they are stable and efficient in most cases. Hopefully when people use the fact that reason now supports vsts to jump over to the reason ship, realize how much more smoothly rack extensions run compared to VST

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Well, to play devil's advocate - VST run perfectly fine in most other DAW, for the most part. So maybe its Reason's VST implementation that needs to be fixed? Just say'n... Still, that's not a good way to steer customers towards RE's, IMHO.

Yep, agree. Pains me to say most users would likely prefer to see VST performance improvements over any GUI updates. If I worked with many devices, or system-taxing ones I might feel the same way.

[etyrnal]

I've had nothing but bad luck with running vsts in reason. I hate them. And I have gone through my plugins folder to get rid of as many of them as I possibly can. I love the rack extensions because they are stable and efficient in most cases. Hopefully when people use the fact that reason now supports vsts to jump over to the reason ship, realize how much more smoothly rack extensions run compared to VST

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Well, to play devil's advocate - VST run perfectly fine in most other DAW, for the most part. So maybe its Reason's VST implementation that needs to be fixed? Just say'n... Still, that's not a good way to steer customers towards RE's, IMHO.

Well to play Devil's Advocate, your comment is not a good way to steer people towards vsts. I'm not trying to steer anyone. Just like other people, I have formed opinions based upon experience and am participating in discussion. In a way it sounds like your comment is designed to steer people toward other daw... especially since you've just suggested that VST works better on other daws.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

[EnochLight]

Well, to play devil's advocate - VST run perfectly fine in most other DAW, for the most part. So maybe its Reason's VST implementation that needs to be fixed? Just say'n... Still, that's not a good way to steer customers towards RE's, IMHO.

Well to play Devil's Advocate, your comment is not a good way to steer people towards vsts. I'm not trying to steer anyone. Just like other people, I have formed opinions based upon experience and am participating in discussion. In a way it sounds like your comment is designed to steer people toward other daw... especially since you've just suggested that VST works better on other daws.

You misunderstand. I wasn't insinuating that you personally were trying to steer people towards RE. I was suggesting that keeping buggy VST implementation in Reason is NOT a good way to steer people towards the RE market as an alternative. It only makes sense to improve and perfect the support, since VST-in-Reason is not only here to stay, it's a huge selling point to elevate Reason into the realm of actual DAW alternatives. And I'm not only suggesting VST works better in other DAW - everyone knows it. Performance is easily the worst part about VST in Reason, right now, and should be one of the areas where it gets improved upon.

I couldn't care less if you use VST or prefer RE. Use what works for you.

[EdGrip]

I couldn't care less...

I think Enoch is American, and in spite of that got this phrase right anyway. There's hope for the future yet.

[EnochLight]

I couldn't care less...

I think Enoch is American, and in spite of that got this phrase right anyway. There's hope for the future yet.

LOL! It's true, us Yankees have a propensity for butchering the King's. I try not to embarrass myself too much.

[seqoi]

especially since you've just suggested that VST works better on other daws.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk

Well i don't know do you read this thread only or other threads and subforums here or other public forums but EnochLight suggested you something which is true fact. There is absolutely zero doubt now that Reason VST performance is crippled and could/should be improved. In case you have not noticed (i am not being ironic) Reason VST performance is very poor and crippled when compared to other daws so YES pretty much any VST plugins works better in other DAWs when compared to Reason. If you need some sort of direct links to various issues (plenty of links and youtube videos on it) drop me a PM and i'll send it to you.

Btw this is very interesting thread. Love to see other people point of view.

[O1B]

Must be a deep south problem... That's how we say it in the Northeast, as well.

the 'piss' phrases, you can keep.

I couldn't care less...

I think Enoch is American, and in spite of that got this phrase right anyway. There's hope for the future yet.

[EdGrip]

I had no idea there was variation around that phrase within America! (/language nerd)
Did we decide that the VST performance has to do with Reason always processing in 64 sample batches without exception?

[Ostermilk]

I think Enoch is American, and in spite of that got this phrase right anyway. There's hope for the future yet.

LOL! It's true, us Yankees have a propensity for butchering the King's. I try not to embarrass myself too much.

I wouldn't worry, most English people butcher the King's. I once asked a Yorkshireman when his boss would be back from abroad. He replied..."Eel be back while Tuesday". I think he meant "He will be back by Tuesday", yet 50 miles away in Newcastle he wouldn't be able to understand what the locals were saying.

Personally I think you are exceptionally eloquent and able to convey meaning very well which, I guess, is the main point of any language you'd care to use.

Anyway back to the topic..

What was the topic again? Ah yeah, Ochen K.

I've got some of his things, and like to use them. I hope he comes up with other stuff I like.