Ochen K?

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joeyluck
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18 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
18 Nov 2017
But—and this is really, really important, joey—that usage model is NOT a subscription.

A subscription is a regular payment in return for access to a service; if you don't pay, you don't get the service.

If you are doing a paid retrial, cancelling during the month before it's recharged, that's a HIRE.

If you need eXpanse this month, and then you cancel it before you're recharged for the following month, and then you find you need it again in six months and get it for another month, that's merely another HIRE. It's the equivalent to me going to HSS once every five years and getting a carpet cleaner. I pay for it regularly, but no-one in their right mind would call it a subscription: I rehire it. <looks at floor... that reminds me... :oops: >

So unless you have Combo 310U, as in your example, or any other device in your subscription package for at least six or twelve months, which are typical periods that tend to be quoted as minimum subscription term for services (and even if the recurring payment period itself is monthly), it cannot seriously be considered subscribing to it, it's a short-term hire. As soon as PH said "they can subscribe but cancel at any time without penalty", then that's a hire model that can also be used for long-term subscriptions, not the other way around. By making it so flexible so as not to upset users by tying them into long-term payments, they've inverted the intended process. The penalty for canceling a Creative Cloud subscription is you can't use any product in Creative Cloud. The penalty for not subscribing to eXpanse is merely that you still get to use Thor, Grain or Europa or whatever is available as part of your current Reason version, and you've run the useful "bounce in place" on all the eXpanse tracks you created during the hire should you want to revisit that mix without needed to hire again, or buy eXpanse, and] the patches you used are still probably stored in the RE placeholder device for future recall if you do opt later to rehire it and want to revoice anything. So for the user, it's all upside.
True, I agree with those definitions. I use it as you say as "hires." I guess I see it as subscribing to the service more so than subscribing to the individual devices themselves. The payment does auto-renew if not canceled, but the REs can be changed each month (and you can apparently setup the change for next month as early as the first day of the current month). I suppose there are those out there who will subscribe to a particular device beyond one month. And even though that's possible, that thought just isn't in my head when thinking of the service. For me, even though the cost is low, I can't help but feel faced with the decision beyond one month of paying, "Ok, if I'm keeping this around any longer, I should probably buy it."

I think it can potentially present a new thought process for the customer that didn't exist before. As a fairly frugal and simple user myself, with the free 30-day trial, I feel like I can easily just walk away, "Well, that free usage was fun...can't use it now unless I buy it." And it can be fairly easy for me to move onto something else and not buy it. Now I'm faced with, "Well, I can "rent" it to give it another spin...it was pretty cool I guess...and it's not much to pay for that opportunity!" Quite possibly followed by, "Ok I should probably buy this so that I'll stop paying money into it and ultimately not own it."

I don't find myself so easily replacing the REs I use, or else I wouldn't have them. I'm not in the crowd of, "Actually Thor can..." So when something I actually want and use goes missing from my tools, I'm going to miss it and want it back. But I get your point, the entire service of Reason doesn't become inaccessible. And other users might not be like me and would welcome alternatives. But I would figure those same users are the ones more likely willing to seek alternatives vs. buying in the first place.

Goodbye
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18 Nov 2017

You know very well that this sort of thing does NOT exist in VST - especially in the context of Reason - and has everything to do with what RE's do in Reason.
I'm not saying they aren't benefits, but this isn't what we were talking about. As usual you've missed the point in your eagerness to cheerlead and convinced only yourself.

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EnochLight
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18 Nov 2017

I think a lot of the ire comes from the fact that VST support came too close to the RE SDK being finally updated to 2.5 to allow features that the native rack has had since forever. It not only took too long to happen, it just happened too close to VST support. So clearly I can see Matt and others being perturbed. Subscriptions, in this case, are attempting to appease a certain genre of customer (read: share economy). And yeah, I get that devs are getting a pittance for including their products.

But, much like we can do with on-demand streaming services when distributing our music for sale: don't participate. Simples. It's not mandatory. There's plenty of musicians who refuse to put their tracks up on Spotify, etc. The Beatles held out and didn't even sell their tracks in iTunes until 2010! No one is forcing devs to participate.

Whether the RE market dies a slow death or continues is anyone's guess. Are there any RE devs that seriously used the Rack Extension platform as their sole income, though? I always thought this was just side income for most. Reason represents such a tiny number of users compared to all of the other major DAW, I just assumed it wasn't a massive market. Maybe it's time RE devs started spreading out into the VST world to see how their wares stack up...
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EnochLight
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18 Nov 2017

Goodbye wrote:
18 Nov 2017
You know very well that this sort of thing does NOT exist in VST - especially in the context of Reason - and has everything to do with what RE's do in Reason.
I'm not saying they aren't benefits, but this isn't what we were talking about. As usual you've missed the point in your eagerness to cheerlead and convinced only yourself.
Yes, we were talking about that - hence the quoted lines I responded to. Obtuse much? I don't need convincing at all. ;)
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

avasopht
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18 Nov 2017

Goodbye wrote:
18 Nov 2017
You know very well that this sort of thing does NOT exist in VST - especially in the context of Reason - and has everything to do with what RE's do in Reason.
I'm not saying they aren't benefits, but this isn't what we were talking about. As usual you've missed the point in your eagerness to cheerlead and convinced only yourself.
Then what are you talking about?

The subject is what REs offer. The context is benefits to developers. eXode's EnochLight's list answers exactly that.

Therefore the very nature of the subject is exactly about what was being discussed, unless you are just looking for ways to dismiss the offering of REs totally.

So I'm really struggling to see how this does not fit into this list of "amazing" that REs offer? Maybe you can elucidate us all on what exactly you were talking about.
Last edited by avasopht on 18 Nov 2017, edited 2 times in total.

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EnochLight
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18 Nov 2017

avasopht wrote:
18 Nov 2017
Goodbye wrote:
18 Nov 2017


I'm not saying they aren't benefits, but this isn't what we were talking about. As usual you've missed the point in your eagerness to cheerlead and convinced only yourself.
Then what are you talking about?

The subject is what REs offer. The context is benefits to developers. eXode's list answers exactly that.

Therefore the very nature of the subject is exactly about what was being discussed, unless you are just looking for ways to dismiss the offering of REs totally.

So I'm really struggling to see how this does not fit into this list of "amazing" that REs offer? Maybe you can elucidate us all on what exactly you were talking about.
To be fair, it wasn't exode's list. I made that list to respond to both Matt and goodbye's statement (which goodbye is pretending to not be the case).
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

avasopht
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18 Nov 2017

EnochLight wrote:
18 Nov 2017
avasopht wrote:
18 Nov 2017


Then what are you talking about?

The subject is what REs offer. The context is benefits to developers. eXode'sEnochLight's list answers exactly that.

Therefore the very nature of the subject is exactly about what was being discussed, unless you are just looking for ways to dismiss the offering of REs totally.

So I'm really struggling to see how this does not fit into this list of "amazing" that REs offer? Maybe you can elucidate us all on what exactly you were talking about.
To be fair, it wasn't exode's list. I made that list to respond to both Matt and goodbye's statement (which goodbye is pretending to not be the case).
Oh, yeah, I meant your list (edited).

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Iapetus 9
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19 Nov 2017

Subs have always bothered me, but sadly, it's the way of the future when the company can pay out fractions of a penny on the dollar. Boy...never saw that comin... :roll:

I will continue to purchase the RE's I want. I see no reason to change. Support the Dev's as you would support the musician. Best wishes Ochen K. I use your RE's all the time, and look forward to a day when you make some more. Cheers!
38L > 51D every time.

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ljekio
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19 Nov 2017

Dear Ochen.K, since you're here again, fix the errors in the Microtune RE, please.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7480178

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Marco Raaphorst
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19 Nov 2017

It would be great if the Props would make a Pure Data device. That would be a Max4Live alternative but PD is open source so that would be totally killer. It will be compatible with any hardware device, including iOS and Android devices. Killer.

botnotbot
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19 Nov 2017

Iapetus 9 wrote:
19 Nov 2017
Subs have always bothered me, but sadly, it's the way of the future when the company can pay out fractions of a penny on the dollar. Boy...never saw that comin... :roll:

I will continue to purchase the RE's I want. I see no reason to change. Support the Dev's as you would support the musician. Best wishes Ochen K. I use your RE's all the time, and look forward to a day when you make some more. Cheers!
I think equating using subscriptions as "not supporting the devs" is a bit harsh. Companies don't have to opt in and guess what -- the one's that didn't aren't (currently) getting any money from me. Softube and u-He are the obvious ones I saw. I was even going to add Uhbik (which I already own) to my subscription just to get them a bit of cash and to have them as fully integrated rack devices.

I will likely purchase some REs at some point but as I've mentioned elsewhere there would be no way you would see me switching to Reason if I had to build up (another) software and instrument effects library. And while using my own VSTs is cool, it was the subscription model that convinced me to give it a try. And I'm glad I did.

But there you go, now there is another paying Reason customer where there wasn't before.

[EDIT: I did not read the whole thread before writing this. It seems the terms are more unfair to developers than I thought. Please don't read my above statements as an endorsement of those bad terms.]

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JiggeryPokery
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19 Nov 2017

EnochLight wrote:
18 Nov 2017

I'm a little shocked at Matt's comment, because he of all people should know exactly what Mattias means. But for shits and giggles, I'll indulge you all since it seems, sadly, people need reminding:
  • For the consumer and dev: true native Reason rack integration, including CV, patch browser, etc
  • For the dev: 100% rock solid copy protection
  • For the consumer: instant "sync all" for all RE's via your account; easy license managing
  • For the dev: no need to manage a store front or infrastructure - it's all handled for you
  • For the dev and consumer: shop for all extensions in one place
  • For the consumer and dev: rock solid stability via Reason
Please don't act like these things are not valuable nor unique to Reason. If you've spent any time out there managing your VST plugins, you'd know that this is a big deal.
I've probably overstayed my welcome in this thread and said more than I ever intended, but the funny thing is I agree with much of the above, Enoch (and you're someone I really respect around here, so please don't take any disagreement as any kind of personal dig), but none of those are features of RE SDK, and for some reason you've artificially added "valuable" as a criteria/feature, which was not something we were discussing the validity of. The features you list there are largely to do with the install or management process of the plugin or platform hosting. Mattias specifically referred to the "Rack Extension SDK and platform", as being "amazing and unique". He's intentionally conflated the two, but they are somewhat independent, and IMO you've rather fallen into his trap there, and only considered the platform aspect in terms of feature-as-hyperbole. (This is based upon my interpretation of the RE SDK being what an RE can do, and the platform being how the RE is managed by the host; I'll concede others' definitions may differ here).

Stability: there have been plenty of occasions where an RE has brought down the entire program. (I recall we had a very rare issue in one device that entirely brought down the Mac version, for example. And the less said about ReSpire the better). So you can cross out stability. Reason and RE stability is mostly excellent, and perhaps still way better than competitors, and one the best things we all love about Reason. It's damn stable. But let's not kid ourselves that equally absolute infallibilty. And conversely—and to my own surprise!—VSTs I've bought largely haven't brought my Reason session down (I can only name one that is unusuably crash-happy, something I got free via my Focusrite purchase - Zplane Vielklang, if anyone cares). So the excellent stability level is neither unique or amazing at plugin level. A draw.

VSTs have patch browsers, of varying consistency for sure, but that's still not unique or amazing, and sometimes having the patch lists within the VST device is useful. The current Reason browser is arguably harder to navigate device patches at times because they removed the option to hide Combinator patches. I often find myself clicking through device patches and suddenly I'm stopped in my tracks loading that 20-device Combi someone (often me, tis true, and I slap myself for this on every occurence) thought was a good idea at the time.

VSTs have CV access via a Combi-style programmer, meaning they arguably have more CV inputs than every third-party IDT-based RE product out there, and more than many regular REs! It's actually more amazing that VST's were given CV ability outside of Combinators. OK, I'll grant you this is a bit of a stretch as we do have to manually target things, it's not like simply hooking a cable straight into a Frequency CV input and Bob's yer uncle, but given the number of REs that don't have CV (the less said about ReSpire the better), it's not a slam-dunk win. Advantage RE, though.

No RE has, at the time of writing, scaling. This is now a major selling point of many VSTs, despite REs being designed from the start with scaling in mind, which is a baffling opportunity to have kept wasting, that introducing even in the next release would look like a "me too" addition, when it could have been mostly ahead of the curve as a seriously impressive USP for the entire DAW back in 2013/2014. At best, you can call native Rack integration vs windowing, a draw. And of course Reason rack integration is unique to REs: Reason is only the program with a Reason rack, and that supports REs for it!

RE syncing/installation is way, way easier, absolutely. But again, I'm sorry, those are not "amazing" features of the SDK, it's platform-related. It's "unique", but once those complex VST installs, with multiple passwords and infuriating install programs are all run and are done and dusted, this point becomes redundant, at least until a reinstall is required. On balance RE is a clear winner, definitely a valuable feature, possibly unique, but hardly, imho, amazing.

Protection. Neither a unique nor an amazing feature of the SDK, and arguably not the platform either: it's handled by Codemeter, a third party system.

Store front/no infrastructure. A VST developer can charge nearly half the price and still earn more than an RE equivalent per unit, simply because RE devs are tied to the PropShop, and one DAW. A VST dev might find it a little harder to drive traffic to their site initially, but great products will rise to the surface via KVR/YouTube/Facebook, and can target several DAWs, thus earning at least 5x the amount an RE dev can expect.

I still find Reason a great program, I also can't see me ever swapping to anything else. I still find it suits the way I love to work. But as a developer, and Ochen also hinted at this, "subscriptions" risk making it a lot harder to pay RE development costs, as if even a quarter of potential early adopters opt for rental/hire/subscription for even six months, let alone just a one-off, instead of outright purchase, that's a huge, massive chunk of lost revenue, that's possibly unsustainable, at least for some types of devices/developers. It's early daws, so that's a unknown statistic, but it's big gamble for PH to have made, for them and us, and I think overall it was the wrong move: time will tell, and I really do hope I'm wrong.

So the other question you need to ask, and here I must end, is why aren't Kilohearts, the diligent and highly-respected RE devs they are, doing Carve EQ for RE? The answer certainly isn't because Ochen has a product with the same name.

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Marco Raaphorst
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19 Nov 2017

I am wondering what happens when one day everyone will get the universal income.
more creative freedom? hopefully so.

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Ahornberg
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19 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
19 Nov 2017
I am wondering what happens when one day everyone will get the universal income.
more creative freedom? hopefully so.
Yessss ;) I would spend my time making free REs

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EnochLight
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19 Nov 2017

ljekio wrote:
19 Nov 2017
Dear Ochen.K, since you're here again, fix the errors in the Microtune RE, please.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=7480178
The bug reported in that thread was confirmed as fix by jappe on the second page....

viewtopic.php?p=35527#p35527
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EnochLight
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19 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
19 Nov 2017
So the other question you need to ask, and here I must end, is why aren't Kilohearts, the diligent and highly-respected RE devs they are, doing Carve EQ for RE? The answer certainly isn't because Ochen has a product with the same name.
* slowly raises hand *

I actually spoke to those guys about that in one of the Carve threads on FB (or maybe it was Twitter - can't remember). Their response to not porting Carve to RE was this: the GUI/UX is too advanced for the RE SDK to handle, and you can add it to your rack via a VST right now anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol: They then went on to say they still love the RE platform and will continue to support it, but I would imagine - that's just being a good businessperson as the face of your company. Whether we see future ports or products from them at all remains to be seen.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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PSoames
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19 Nov 2017

This thread is the forum equivalent of 'Where's Wally' - or depending on your nationality, Waldo, Charlie, Jura, Valdik, Willie, Walter, Holger, Valli, Hugo, Valle, Wali, Gile, Ali, etc.)

Anyways! I spotted Ochen on page 2; I think!

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eusti
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19 Nov 2017

EnochLight wrote:
19 Nov 2017
* slowly raises hand *

I actually spoke to those guys about that in one of the Carve threads on FB (or maybe it was Twitter - can't remember). Their response to not porting Carve to RE was this: the GUI/UX is too advanced for the RE SDK to handle, and you can add it to your rack via a VST right now anyway. :lol: :lol: :lol: They then went on to say they still love the RE platform and will continue to support it, but I would imagine - that's just being a good businessperson as the face of your company. Whether we see future ports or products from them at all remains to be seen.
I have no deeper knowledge of Kilohearts' plans, but my guess is that REs now might not be as much of priority as they have been pre 9.5.
One could see this weekend's Multipass sale (50% off and free VST crossgrade for all previously purchased Kilohearts REs) as a step to make Reason users more comfortbale with their VST offerings. But this is just an interpretation.

D.

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EnochLight
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19 Nov 2017

I can say as a longtime Reason user, at least for myself, I do prefer a Rack Extension version of my favorite plugin if I'm given the choice... unless things are compromised. For instance, I prefer Serum as a VST in Reason, because there are so many windows, levels, displays, etc - that just seems like it would be a mess as an RE - especially at a locked rack size. Same with VPS Avenger. I could never imagine the Fab Filter stuff in any other form than they are now. Spire as a VST is just nicer to look at and work in full screen. So are all the other ones I mentioned.

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't really care at this point. I have everything I need. There's only a few VST that I absolutely prefer to keep as RE (Softube, I'm looking at you), just for convenience, if anything. That said, I do miss Authorizer/Sync All convenience with my VST. I am considering a new system build soon, and I am literally panicking trying to find all of my installers, serials, dongles, account info, etc for the VST I have. It's goddamn stressful. :(
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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joeyluck
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19 Nov 2017

Here is a statement from Kilohearts about the VST and the RE format:

https://www.reasontalk.com/2017/11/kilo ... ve-eq-vst/

Keep in mind, they have 28 REs in the shop. It's an interesting perspective folks have with developers who are more active in making plugins, right? Versus say one of those VST developers that may have and manage just one single VST and they port or don't port that one VST to RE...

The Kilohearts Carve EQ is wonderful. It looks fantastic. The graphics and interaction are very fluid and intuitive. And one of the things I really like about it is using two-finger swipe on my MacBook (or scroll wheel for others) to adjust the size of the sculpt tool. I think as a RE it would be great if ever REs have an option to 'pop-out,' because it really is a visual tool, and would be stunted when confined to Reason's rack.

They are also plenty active here and have been running flash sales on their REs. Both the REs and kHs snapins (used with Mulitpass or Snap Heap) have a place inside Reason IMO. When I use one or several kHs plugins in a simple chain, I reach for the REs. If I want to get more creative with several, I reach for Multipass and use the snapins. I just find programming Multipass/Snap Heap more inviting and faster to program than the Combinator.

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ljekio
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19 Nov 2017

EnochLight wrote:
19 Nov 2017

The bug reported in that thread was confirmed as fix by jappe on the second page....

viewtopic.php?p=35527#p35527
Carve, but not Microtune.
First version still from 2014 in the propshop.

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chimp_spanner
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19 Nov 2017

The day I can take the mod envelope from Serum, route it to pitch modulation of DUNE 2, split that signal, invert it, process it and drive insert parameters on a third synth and then freely take audio from any of those devices, FM them, do stuff to each channel individually, split, duplicate and recombine them...I will concede that there's no advantage to RE over VST.

RE's - as part of the wider Reason ecosystem - are arguably capable of things that VSTs simply cannot do. The closest you can get is perhaps something Reaktor, but even that is locked inside itself to some degree, or else you have to use MIDI out to real (or virtual) ports. Rather than just grabbing a cable and *bewp* plugging it in.

VSTs and REs are similar in that they both make sounds. But the way they interact with each other, and with their native environment, is completely different.

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KirkMarkarian
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19 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
19 Nov 2017
It would be great if the Props would make a Pure Data device. That would be a Max4Live alternative but PD is open source so that would be totally killer. It will be compatible with any hardware device, including iOS and Android devices. Killer.
Absolutely! Fantastic idea, and easy enough to get into!

OverneathTheSkyBridg
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19 Nov 2017

Just read through this whole thread. Sounds like subscriptions are a real rip off to the RE devs. Personally I prefer the RE format and will continue to support it by buying them. I'm hoping that PH will turn their focus to more of the workflow requests that people have been asking for in later 10.x

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emilng
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19 Nov 2017

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
19 Nov 2017
It would be great if the Props would make a Pure Data device. That would be a Max4Live alternative but PD is open source so that would be totally killer. It will be compatible with any hardware device, including iOS and Android devices. Killer.
Looks like someone already made a VST wrapper for Pure Data so you're already part of the way there. https://github.com/pierreguillot/Camomile
mostly modular experiments: https://www.youtube.com/user/maztik8r

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