Ochen K?

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selig
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16 Nov 2017

jayhosking wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Goodbye wrote:
16 Nov 2017

Solution:
- Allow people to sell/trade REs
This would almost certainly make things worse for RE developers and ensure that money is going into others' hands rather than developers'. Like subscriptions, it's one of those requests that I've seen bandied about on message boards, but ultimately it's serving the user in the short term and hurting the smaller developers in the long term, ultimately hurting everyone in the long term. A 30-day trial, plus relatively cheap buy-in prices, plus a probably irrevocable (for the time being) subscription model is more than adequate for the user. Let's not throw the sales of used REs into the mix. The users are fine and getting so much amazing content at such a low entry point. Let's find a way to adequately pay RE developers for their work and effort, and encourage more of it.
I have always imagined this as a feature in the RE store, thus preventing the issues you describe above.
:)
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rcbuse
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16 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Not to take away or discredit the opinions and experiences of the developers who have chimed in here, but everybody should keep in mind that these are the experiences and opinions of these particular developers. I see many forum members treating some statements as representing the entire RE dev community and drawing conclusions on the state of things based solely on those comments.
True dat. Lots of stuff in the pipeline here, no plans to change.

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selig
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

16 Nov 2017

rcbuse wrote:
16 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Not to take away or discredit the opinions and experiences of the developers who have chimed in here, but everybody should keep in mind that these are the experiences and opinions of these particular developers. I see many forum members treating some statements as representing the entire RE dev community and drawing conclusions on the state of things based solely on those comments.
True dat. Lots of stuff in the pipeline here, no plans to change.
Same here - just going slower because of my co-developer's busy schedules!
;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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TritoneAddiction
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16 Nov 2017

For any RE developers reading this, I'm still gonna buy the REs that interests me. I'm not really interested in the subscription model.
Also I'd much rather buy REs than VSTs. So for me the RE format is far from dead.

I really hope not every RE developer quits. I'm sure more people feel the same way, right?

Goodbye
Posts: 220
Joined: 21 May 2017

16 Nov 2017

jayhosking wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Goodbye wrote:
16 Nov 2017

Solution:
- Allow people to sell/trade REs
This would almost certainly make things worse for RE developers and ensure that money is going into others' hands rather than developers'. Like subscriptions, it's one of those requests that I've seen bandied about on message boards, but ultimately it's serving the user in the short term and hurting the smaller developers in the long term, ultimately hurting everyone in the long term. A 30-day trial, plus relatively cheap buy-in prices, plus a probably irrevocable (for the time being) subscription model is more than adequate for the user. Let's not throw the sales of used REs into the mix.
I really don't agree with you on this. At the moment, buying an RE is a one-way thing. If you decide you don't want it anymore there is nothing you can do about it. This is only going to push people into buying VSTs (which retain value, and are portable between platforms into the bargain). If people felt they could offload things they don't want there would be a much more vibrant market and people wouldn't prefer REs.
The users are fine and getting so much amazing content at such a low entry point. Let's find a way to adequately pay RE developers for their work and effort, and encourage more of it.
This is true, it is a great time to be buying REs for the user, but this is a short-term win for a long-term loss (less developers). I hope Propellerhead rethink the subscription model and make it fairer to developers.

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friday
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16 Nov 2017

Because i think Matthias is looking at this thread, i would like to see a discussion about, if it is not possible to let the Dev decide if he wants to be in the subscription model or not?

That seems to me a fair solution.

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rcbuse
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16 Nov 2017

friday wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Because i think Matthias is looking at this thread, i would like to see a discussion about, if it is not possible to let the Dev decide if he wants to be in the subscription model or not?

That seems to me a fair solution.
It was an opt-in choice for developers.

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theshoemaker
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16 Nov 2017

rcbuse wrote:
16 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Not to take away or discredit the opinions and experiences of the developers who have chimed in here, but everybody should keep in mind that these are the experiences and opinions of these particular developers. I see many forum members treating some statements as representing the entire RE dev community and drawing conclusions on the state of things based solely on those comments.
True dat. Lots of stuff in the pipeline here, no plans to change.
And thats why i love all my REs. All bought and still will. A rent to own model would be fine. Just spent small doses.
:PUF_figure: latest :reason: V12 on MacOS Ventura

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JiggeryPokery
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16 Nov 2017

rcbuse wrote:
16 Nov 2017
friday wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Because i think Matthias is looking at this thread, i would like to see a discussion about, if it is not possible to let the Dev decide if he wants to be in the subscription model or not?

That seems to me a fair solution.
It was an opt-in choice for developers.
I wasn't going to post again to this thread, but having read that, I can't not. While your statement is, on balance, not untrue, it does signficantly underplay exactly what happened and how it was sold to us.

One developer reached out to me and privately told me he felt he was pressurized into agreeing because it was about to launch and PH were waiting for him, as if subscriptions couldn't launch until he'd signed. That's what I was told, I can't guarantee the veracity of that, but I know the dev well enough that I'd respect his opinion. And although I can't say PH told me that (or I didn't interpret what they told me in quite that fashion), it's not unlikely there are other devs who might have got the same line or made the same inferences. I made my views on subs clear months ago, but frankly it was going to happen whether it was a good idea or not (and it largely isn't), so personally I felt it was a fait accompli not unlike rigs: if you're not onboard, then your competitors are so that puts you at a disadvantage. So don't sign up and you don't get effectively free advertising, that kind of thing. There's an issue of scale too: I've not checked but my understanding from elsewhere is Softube, for one, didn't sign up? That's kinda interesting to note, if that's correct.

So, to those wondering exactly what subs are about, here's a section of my latest invoice. Before I received the invoice, and based on indicative web stats that looked iffy, I queried PH a month ago now, within days of subs being launched, and have had no explanation from anyone. We shouldn't be expected to do a Shawshank and write daily to get responses or clarifications.

ChenZero.png
ChenZero.png (14.78 KiB) Viewed 3013 times

So, as you can see, PH are sending us invoices where we're getting paid literally nothing, or pretty much nothing. I'm not the only dev seeing these sorts of figures; I can't say I've seen a single sub to date that's returning the value promised by the subscription contract. I've heard a rumour the 0.00 is actually a "placeholder" figure, but that sounds like that dev was being fobbed off, as that doesn't explain figures like 0.03. And even if they are "placeholders", I'd love someone to explain how, exactly, one is expected to manage the accounting of a 0.00, or 0.03 figure against a correct payment without, at best—and assuming one can link each invoice "placeholder" to a "real" invoiced value down the line—a metric shit ton of Excel wrangling. Accounting is a legal process, and if we can't clearly demonstrate our figures to our local tax authorities if they want to see the stats then we're potentially screwed.

And as someone noted in another thread, and got shot down by Kenni et al for even thinking about criticising subs, there may be another major flaw from a developer perspective. I can't confirm this 100% yet, but if, as a subscriber, you don't claim the full value of the subscription (e,g, you get a $500 sub and then only choose value up to $300), it does currently seem to be the case that the % on each device in the sub that goes to the respective devs is not increased pro rata to fill the value, PH just pocket the difference. So for PH, the returns on a $9 or $29 sub are pretty much always going to be about the same as a $9 or $29 purchase, so they don't lose out in in quite the same way as devs. The devs included in the subscriptions currently received pennies or less, even where the minimum value, for the bigger synths, should be around $1 (which let's be honest, is still terrible, but less terrible than sod all! ).

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rcbuse
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16 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Nov 2017

One developer reached out to me and privately told me he felt he was pressurized into agreeing because it was about to launch and PH were waiting for him, as if subscriptions couldn't launch until he'd signed. That's what I was told, I can't guarantee the veracity of that, but I know the dev well enough that I'd respect his opinion. And although I can't say PH told me that (or I didn't interpret what they told me in quite that fashion), it's not unlikely there are other devs who might have got the same line or made the same inferences. I made my views on subs clear months ago, but frankly it was going to happen whether it was a good idea or not (and it largely isn't), so personally I felt it was a fait accompli not unlike rigs: if you're not onboard, then your competitors are so that puts you at a disadvantage. So don't sign up and you don't get effectively free advertising, that kind of thing. There's an issue of scale too: I've not checked but my understanding from elsewhere is Softube, for one, didn't sign up? That's kinda interesting to note, if that's correct.
Interesting... I can't say I felt anything like that. I also haven't had any experience with the rigs.
JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Nov 2017

So, as you can see, PH are sending us invoices where we're getting paid literally nothing, or pretty much nothing. I'm not the only dev seeing these sorts of figures; I can't say I've seen a single sub to date that's returning the value promised by the subscription contract. I've heard a rumour the 0.00 is actually a "placeholder" figure, but that sounds like that dev was being fobbed off, as that doesn't explain figures like 0.03. And even if they are "placeholders", I'd love someone to explain how, exactly, one is expected to manage the accounting of a 0.00, or 0.03 figure against a correct payment without, at best—and assuming one can link each invoice "placeholder" to a "real" invoiced value down the line—a metric shit ton of Excel wrangling.

And as someone noted in another thread, and got shot down by Kenni et al for even thinking about criticising subs, there may be another major flaw from a developer perspective. I can't confirm this 100% yet, if, as a subscriber, you don't claim the full value of the subscription (e,g, you get a $500 sub and only choose value up to $300), it does currently seem to be the case that % on each device in the sub that goes to the respective devs is not increased pro rata to fill value. PH just pocket the difference. So for PH, the returns on a $9 sub are pretty much always going to be about the same as a $9 purchase. The devs included in the subscriptions currently received pennies or less, even where the minimum value, for the bigger synths, should be around $1 (which let's be honest, is still terrible, but less terrible than 0.00).
I'm not sure if you have taken a look at the pricing tiers sheet, it lays out a developers pricing vs subscription package and what proceeds would be. I'm also going to suggest that anytime you see a 0.00, I would consult the latest dist agreement section 10.2.c (I'm being intentionally vague for NDA reasons.)

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friday
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16 Nov 2017

He JiggeryP, no chance to get out of the subscription agreement, so you can be happy again? Because i like your Steerpike BBD Delay Ensemble, for me it is simply the best delay device in the rack.

I am very happy with Reason 10 but really want to see all fronts lucky.

And i think, if a RE is on high quality it will survive without beeing in the subscription model!?!?!

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Gorgon
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16 Nov 2017

Sounds to me like PH hired some shark lawyers and are *censored* the RE devs up the *censored*
Last edited by Gorgon on 17 Nov 2017, edited 1 time in total.
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JiggeryPokery
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16 Nov 2017

friday wrote:
16 Nov 2017
if a RE is on high quality it will survive without beeing in the subscription model!?!?!
Maybe, maybe not, I've no idea! And in any event, I'm hardly representative of all RE devs, especially as I'm also more overtly critical than most: but what might affect me would also affect others, and not just in terms of criticism of issues, but also in terms tangible, positive benefits to others. So it's right that there are few Khedrons around shaking things up, offering a critical response, and who won't take disingenuous comments at face value.

It's early days, and issues with subs might be just be teething troubles. It would be a easier to be forgiving though, if as devs we understood the issues we are seeing and had them explained. The financial aspect is, at this current moment, merely baffling, but it's the lack of a response or discussion that's troubling, as we're actual businesses that file actual tax returns and we need information pertinent and accurate to the running of them or we risk heavy fines.

If PH keep selling Reason, and people keep buying REs, there will be developers making them; even if some drop out, new entrants will appear. I've done ok, would have liked to have a sold more of course but I'm aware I'm not a natural marketeer, but despite that actually I've not been unhappy with my RE sales given most of my stuff is also fairly niche. I'm not out yet, but I suspect next year might be my last depending on what happens with the current project (sunk costs! :lol: :o ). I expect devs with more mainstream, high-end products have done pretty well. So it's absolutely not true that REs have been an entirely worthless proposition, especially for those who can code and design (for me it's been more expensive as I don't code), and perhaps moreso if it's a second-income/hobby type arrangement.

There is an issue with one or two devs with a desperately short-term outlook, with endless low-revenue but high profile "sales", that may be causing other devs to devalue their stuff in response. (Hint: If that $39 product is constantly on sale for just $9, then the dev is well aware that product was only ever worth $9, and it's wilfully cheating people who don't realise how long the discount has been applied for into thinking they're getting a good deal; that sort of behaviour is explicity illegal in UK trade law, btw). IMO, PH need to lay down the law here too: they shouldn't restrict devs from doing discounts, of course, but they should be doing more to clamp down on egregious piss-takes that actually hurts them as well as the other RE devs. It was both amusing and yet kind of upsetting when someone was bragging how they had like, all of those near-identikit IDT wavetable synths for nine bucks, but was sad he couldn't afford eXpanse. The irony was entirely lost on that particular poster. A $9 synth may be a genuinely good purchase for someone looking for new sounds if they can't afford a high-end product; but falling into the trap of buying several cheap products over a fairly short period of time rather than saving for the one they really wanted, inadvertantly prices the purchaser out of that more versatile, higher-priced single product, with the full revenue that generates for the developer, as they are then always chasing it, rather than closing in on, and finally catching it. And similarly, a subscription also pretty much ensures the developer will never see the full value, particularly if the usage model is really one of occasional hire, and not ongoing subscription.

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emilng
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16 Nov 2017

I started out with REs by buying a bundle and have bought other REs from devs in the bundle as a result of learning about them through the bundle and also just looking more into what was available out there. Without that first purchase I might not have spent any more money on rack extensions. So while I understand that you don't get very much from putting your work in a bundle. You're also probably getting that money from someone who wouldn't have spent that money in the first place. If you look at the games marketplace you see this same phenomenon play itself out in things like the Humble Bundle and Steam sales.

I feel the subscription model isn't sustainable for devs in the long run. They only seem to be beneficial to the subscription services so I choose not to participate in them. That goes for the RE subscription model and for things like Spotify.
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Faastwalker
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Location: NSW, Australia

16 Nov 2017

rcbuse wrote:
16 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
Not to take away or discredit the opinions and experiences of the developers who have chimed in here, but everybody should keep in mind that these are the experiences and opinions of these particular developers. I see many forum members treating some statements as representing the entire RE dev community and drawing conclusions on the state of things based solely on those comments.
True dat. Lots of stuff in the pipeline here, no plans to change.
That's great to hear ;) Look forward to seeing your new RE's

And any that rattle my cage I'll buy (I don't care much for the the subscription thing).

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joeyluck
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16 Nov 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Nov 2017
rcbuse wrote:
16 Nov 2017


It was an opt-in choice for developers.
I wasn't going to post again to this thread, but having read that, I can't not. While your statement is, on balance, not untrue, it does signficantly underplay exactly what happened and how it was sold to us.

One developer reached out to me and privately told me he felt he was pressurized into agreeing because it was about to launch and PH were waiting for him, as if subscriptions couldn't launch until he'd signed. That's what I was told, I can't guarantee the veracity of that, but I know the dev well enough that I'd respect his opinion. And although I can't say PH told me that (or I didn't interpret what they told me in quite that fashion), it's not unlikely there are other devs who might have got the same line or made the same inferences. I made my views on subs clear months ago, but frankly it was going to happen whether it was a good idea or not (and it largely isn't), so personally I felt it was a fait accompli not unlike rigs: if you're not onboard, then your competitors are so that puts you at a disadvantage. So don't sign up and you don't get effectively free advertising, that kind of thing. There's an issue of scale too: I've not checked but my understanding from elsewhere is Softube, for one, didn't sign up? That's kinda interesting to note, if that's correct.

So, to those wondering exactly what subs are about, here's a section of my latest invoice. Before I received the invoice, and based on indicative web stats that looked iffy, I queried PH a month ago now, within days of subs being launched, and have had no explanation from anyone. We shouldn't be expected to do a Shawshank and write daily to get responses or clarifications.

So, as you can see, PH are sending us invoices where we're getting paid literally nothing, or pretty much nothing. I'm not the only dev seeing these sorts of figures; I can't say I've seen a single sub to date that's returning the value promised by the subscription contract. I've heard a rumour the 0.00 is actually a "placeholder" figure, but that sounds like that dev was being fobbed off, as that doesn't explain figures like 0.03. And even if they are "placeholders", I'd love someone to explain how, exactly, one is expected to manage the accounting of a 0.00, or 0.03 figure against a correct payment without, at best—and assuming one can link each invoice "placeholder" to a "real" invoiced value down the line—a metric shit ton of Excel wrangling. Accounting is a legal process, and if we can't clearly demonstrate our figures to our local tax authorities if they want to see the stats then we're potentially screwed.
I think something else to take into account with subscriptions is that sometimes a customer will fill them with REs they don't plan to ever buy (and sometimes not use at all). I subscribed to the $9 plan last month and two of the REs I picked up, I didn't even use during the month, aside from a quick futzing around when I began my subscription.

One of them was your Combo 310. Now while there may only be a few cents you might have made off my subscription, you otherwise would never see money from me for the Combo 310. That's certainly not a shot at you or the Combo 310, all of your products are great IMO. There was enough appeal for me to fill the space in my subscription with it (after spending too much time trying to figure how I could fill that gap without having a sort by price feature). But ultimately not enough appeal for me to actually put it to use. So I would look at that as either a few cents gained or no money lost.

And who knows, maybe I subscribe to it for a month, realize what I was missing when I trialed it; maybe something I didn't notice before or a trial license I wasted when I became busy. And then I turn around after I subscribe a month and instead buy the Combo 310. Something that might not happen had I not had the opportunity to subscribe and try it again. And I would say those statistics are a bit too early to tell, since subscriptions just recently wrapped their first month. I'd also say it's a bit early to scrutinize most numbers. And Reason 10 was also just released, so I would think that RE sales take a small dip at this time. But anyways, I like your stuff and wish you success with your REs.

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Faastwalker
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16 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
I subscribed to the $9 plan last month and two of the REs I picked up, I didn't even use during the month, aside from a quick futzing around when I began my subscription. One of them was your Combo 310. Now while there may only be a few cents you might have made off my subscription, you otherwise would never see money from me for the Combo 310.
That's awesome! Now if another 300 people do the same JP might be able to afford himself a small coffee from his Combo 310 profits!! I'm sorry, but I think the subscription model sucks! Even more so now I know how little the developers are making from it.

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joeyluck
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17 Nov 2017

Faastwalker wrote:
16 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017
I subscribed to the $9 plan last month and two of the REs I picked up, I didn't even use during the month, aside from a quick futzing around when I began my subscription. One of them was your Combo 310. Now while there may only be a few cents you might have made off my subscription, you otherwise would never see money from me for the Combo 310.
That's awesome! Now if another 300 people do the same JP might be able to afford himself a small coffee from his Combo 310 profits!! I'm sorry, but I think the subscription model sucks! Even more so now I know how little the developers are making from it.
I think you missed the point.

Goodbye
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17 Nov 2017

So I would look at that as either a few cents gained or no money lost.
Seriously?

This is basically the Spotify angle - be grateful for the crumbs from our table because crumbs are better than no crumbs at all.
Last edited by Goodbye on 17 Nov 2017, edited 2 times in total.

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JiggeryPokery
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17 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
16 Nov 2017

I think something else to take into account with subscriptions is that sometimes a customer will fill them with REs they don't plan to ever buy (and sometimes not use at all). I subscribed to the $9 plan last month and two of the REs I picked up, I didn't even use during the month, aside from a quick futzing around when I began my subscription.
Yes, you're right, that is an approach some people take. I did exactly the same thing when I got a $9 sub to roadtest the procedure last month, but that highlighted the fundamental problem I feared, that you also found, that of acquiring many items cheaply at once: you just end up getting a load of stuff you don't use. In fact, it was damn hard to actually fill it up. I asked someone at PH about this effect a few months back regarding RE rigs, but unfortunately I had no response, and it's lack to potentially useful B2B details like this that are frustrating. However, the next time a user puts together a new package, they might not even bother adding stuff to fill the available value, as it's going to cost them exactly the same whether they uses all the devices in it or not, in which case, they're not going to bother wasting time trying make up the value by trying to force in device they don't need. And as I pointed out above, then the % value returns to the devs are not increased pro rata to fill it either.

An extreme example, but it would surprise me if this never happened: if you just wanted to hire, say, eXpanse for a couple of sessions, rather than pay $149 for it, you can now hire it for a month for just $9, adding no other items to the bundle. That's a massive, massive saving. But afaik the dev would still only get around $1 based on the % ascribed to that device price in that sub tier, rather than the $5 he would have gotten if he'd just sold the product in a sale individually for $9. PH now just pocket the difference and earn around 4x what the dev does. This is where I feel we were hoodwinked: PH would have been well aware of this scenario, and unfortunately it was one that didn't occur to me before subs launched so I didn't get to raise it. So in effect a developer is, in that respect, better off slashing the price of their device to $9 to sell it outright, so it becomes a race to the bottom. At this point, suddenly those $9 identikit IDT wavetablers look like a decent racket, as they are guaranteed to return their dev more revenue than eXpanse, as no one with any sense is ever going to subscribe to them! Whereas with eXpanse, the chances of it being subscribed to short-term rather than purchased outright are substantially more likely.

Faastwalker's joke might be considered facetious, but it's depressingly funny and sadly accurate. Giving a dev 0.27 might seem to you to be better than never giving nothing at all (and honestly, I do thank you for it, so please don't think I'm criticising users like yourself here, you're simply making use of a feature as made available, and "paid retrials" is perhaps the one positive usage case for PH's new model, and as a consumer I've saved some money by making use of it too, it's just the obvious thing to do), but to actually boost the income (and this is assuming it wouldn't cannibalise sales at all, that it's purely "extra" income on top of full product sales we'd make anyway, which I do not believe is going to be entirely the case) we need to have so many of them it's pretty much worthless if you don't subscribe to it every month from now on: you'd need to subscribe to a device like eXpanse every month for up to eight years until you've fulfilled the value the developer required from you, or they would need to have hundreds of people subscribing to it all the time, and the jury has only just retired to their begin their deliberations on that one :lol: .

So appreciating it's early days and some things are not entirely clear yet, I still get the feeling the likelihood of that happening is delusional thinking on PH's part. Creative Suite is a core, high value application that businesses need 365 days a year, and which has a near monopolistic market share suitable for the kind of price-gouging Adobe could apply*, because they know it can only be used as a subscription: you don't pay, you can't use, and you basically got no alternative that's anywhere near as powerful and/or attractive or user-friendly (cf GIMP). Few, if any, REs are a core product to all users. (Chenille and Selig De-Ess should be pretty close, though ;) )

It is not at all comparable to hiring a few, cheap RE plugins for the number 4 most popular DAW by gamed online polls. Compare that to Slate. All his plugins are high value to start with, and he doesn't have all that many. By contrast, most RE's are fairly cheap, and there are hundreds of them. But a large number of them are less than the value of the subscription: the truly ironic thing is, yes, if you didn't hire my 310U I don't earn an extra 10p, but on the other hand, if the only devices you really wanted were the 310U and, I dunno, 4Mer say, this being a hijacked Ochen thread (sorry! :puf_wink: ), which you could get together for under $50 during a sale, over six months you'd have been better off just buying the devices to start with, than subscribing to lots of extra devices you didn't need and would never use, for $60, and we'd still only have be paid less than 10 dollars between us. But if you buy them at that point, they will now have cost you $110.


____
* That's a tad harsh, I think in practice CC products probably work out about the same as just buying an the original CS product and then upgrading every release; where it does clearly cost a lot more is for those business or users who only upgraded every two or three releases.

EdGrip
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17 Nov 2017

Buy software outright wherever possible, kids!

(and try Affinity Photo)

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Faastwalker
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17 Nov 2017

joeyluck wrote:
17 Nov 2017
Faastwalker wrote:
16 Nov 2017

That's awesome! Now if another 300 people do the same JP might be able to afford himself a small coffee from his Combo 310 profits!! I'm sorry, but I think the subscription model sucks! Even more so now I know how little the developers are making from it.
I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the boat! Seriously, dude.
Goodbye wrote:
17 Nov 2017
So I would look at that as either a few cents gained or no money lost.
Seriously?

This is basically the Spotify angle - be grateful for the crumbs from our table because crumbs are better than no crumbs at all.
Exactly.

olive6741
Posts: 294
Joined: 11 May 2016

17 Nov 2017

This is a very interesting thread and I applause the fact things are SAID. I also appreciate Mattias participate, because too often I have this impression some mystery rules when it's time to name a cat a cat (I don't know if I can translate this french expression like this - wanna say : "saying clearly the truth") when talking about PH inside's . It's good to see devs explaining why all of this can / won't affect them and the RE model, and to see different point of views.
I just want to speak about my present and future behaviour about all of this.
First of all, like all the others who voiced their opinion, after the « we have VST » madness has settled down, it is obvious to me that RE is a preferred choice. I can use a VST if there is no counterpart in RE, or if a VST is at a real bargain and I find some interest in it, but the way RE sync, integrates (no floating window) and can be extensively CV/Audio modulated, and with more basic functions usually, what push the idea of combinators in full perspective, yes, RE is the obvious choice. So as long as there will be RE, I’ll buy RE.
Now the subscriptions. Yes I use it. But this is what will happen in my case: I've really been careful and chose RE with care, and in a way I reached as much as possible the upper limit of my chosen subscription. I don’t want to spend money not being maxed out. So, with this in mind, it brings this conclusion: whenever a new tempting RE will appear, I’ll be forced to buy it. Because I won’t change my subscription plan, more than probably. So, yes, it is a total steal for what I put in subscription (mainly expensive RE), but whenever I’ll need a new RE, I’ll continue to act like I was doing before: buying it. The advantage to me now is I suddenly got more RE for a very good amount of money. But as soon as I’ll start to use them all, even only in one song, it means I won’t let it go. So: 1.keep the RE in subscription or 2. finally buy it to free some room in my subscription for something else. (I decided of a limit in subscription amount). So in ‘transient’, it is clear it’s in my consumer interest this subscription system works. but then, if new RE appears, I will be tempted like before, and won’t have any other choice than buying it. I don’t know how much you could scale this behaviour to others, but even if in a transient situation I’ll buy less, after a while I’ll spend the same budget than before (minus subscription monthly fee maybe). Not sure in my side it will greatly affect my shopping behaviour. I’ll continue to buy RE. Just to say and gives you one profil of a customer.

avasopht
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17 Nov 2017

Communication indicates where values lie. Pocketing the difference is bad form, so I hope that is adjusted.

I agree with the noted differences between Adobe CS, and I can see the risk of people trying out subscriptions for a short period, realizing what REs they do and don't need, and then unsubscribing.

It might have positive effects such as encouraging extended trials or a more relaxed approach to trying out new devices because of the perceived low cost of adopting an expensive RE.

It can turn out many ways, but implementation and responding to the market is key to getting it right (at least right for the RE developers).

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joeyluck
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17 Nov 2017

Faastwalker wrote:
17 Nov 2017
joeyluck wrote:
17 Nov 2017


I think you missed the point.
I think you missed the boat! Seriously, dude.
Goodbye wrote:
17 Nov 2017


Seriously?

This is basically the Spotify angle - be grateful for the crumbs from our table because crumbs are better than no crumbs at all.
Exactly.
Sure, I guess with Spotify, as an artist, you can opt out as well.

You were taking my comments out of context. I don't think Jiggery-Pokery took them the same as you. I was making a point that I subscribed to something specifically to fill a gap in my subscription... something that I didn't use during my subscription and had no plans of buying. That without subscriptions in place, from the angle of me as a customer, it would have made no difference today. Unless that difference might be me subscribing to an item (somewhat at random to fill my cart) leading to me saying, "Hey, not sure what I missed when I trialed this, but this is awesome" and then I buy it. And that could not have happened before. And statistics like those we might not see yet since it's early and subscriptions just wrapped their first month along with Reason 10 being released.

Also I'm pretty sure I've seen you pushing for re-tries of REs in this forum. And that would instead be free for you, right?

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