Propellerhead introduces Layers synth.

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QVprod
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15 Sep 2017

WeLoveYouToo wrote:
15 Sep 2017
QVprod wrote:
15 Sep 2017


Why wouldn't this classify as a synth? It has 4 oscillators (Layers). And per layer (or per oscillator) there's a filter, distorition, flanger, fx sends, pan, adsr, pitch, filter envelope and LFO...That's a synth. The way you design sounds on this is definitely subtractive synthesis, there's just no global filter. Subtractor is a synth (not sure why "even" was needed for this fact) and the functionality here is pretty similar minus the fm capabilities. Plenty of softsynths are sample based just like the IDT synths in the shop.
thats a really good point. theoretically the only real difference is that instead of an oscillator generating a waveform its a sample of a <i>particular</i> oscillator generating a waveform, right?
Exactly

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selig
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15 Sep 2017

QVprod wrote:
15 Sep 2017
WeLoveYouToo wrote:
15 Sep 2017


thats a really good point. theoretically the only real difference is that instead of an oscillator generating a waveform its a sample of a <i>particular</i> oscillator generating a waveform, right?
Exactly
Yea, we've talked this subject in circles before, remember?

There are those who stick by the "if it's not generating a waveform then it's not a 'real' synth" (it's a wavetable or sample based instrument).
And there are those that go with the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" analogy (as above).

Then there are those who go all 'old-school' and say "why the hell are you kids calling anything 'digital' a SYNTH in the first place?"!
;)

IMO what you choose to call it is all 'marketing'. In the end we use what we like, no matter what it's called or how it's made, right?
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O1B
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15 Sep 2017

Right when I'm about to pull the trigger on :
Image
P'head drops Layers... But, some questions/ GUI tweak ideas...

- Can I morph between the four layers... Joystick style - in order to solo, audition pairs, etc?
(I can build a Combi yes, but to visualize where I am,
I'd need an X/Y (THOR) or Polar (QE V-scope) plane with a combi - and some programming
.)
A Virtual XY/Polar Scope on the GUI - tied to the Volume(s) would do wonders.
- 16 steps? I'm looking for 64 these days... but i may be missing something..\
- Global flanger... who should git some flange? Should we even use flange? ALL ON/OFF, pls
- I Love MUTE(s)... maybe a "'All mutes OFF or Invert MUTES" near the ABCD dead space at the bottom.
- maybe... Global linking of the ADSR (Volume) - so working from INIT patches is easier to get off the ground.

I seems more an RE for inspiration rather than actual committed tracks, in my opinion. And, I already accept Ill have to MOUSE that GUI which seems most unpleasant.

This RE is a great way to Audition all those 80's sounds... if the UI doesn't get in the way, and it doesn't sound lame.. (the Samples didn't hit me in the Brain like Parsec.)

Decisions, decisions...

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arqui
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15 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
15 Sep 2017
QVprod wrote:
15 Sep 2017


Exactly
Yea, we've talked this subject in circles before, remember?

There are those who stick by the "if it's not generating a waveform then it's not a 'real' synth" (it's a wavetable or sample based instrument).
And there are those that go with the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" analogy (as above).

Then there are those who go all 'old-school' and say "why the hell are you kids calling anything 'digital' a SYNTH in the first place?"!
;)

IMO what you choose to call it is all 'marketing'. In the end we use what we like, no matter what it's called or how it's made, right?
:thumbs_up:
never better explained
      Reason 11 Suite, perpetual license :reason:

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dvdrtldg
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15 Sep 2017

Well I'm liking this thing, i don't understand the "lifeless" criticism at all, because to me it sounds rich and meaty, with an unusually great bunch of presets and well chosen samples. Stick it in a combinator and start modulating this & that, it's a lot of fun and surprisingly versatile. Obviously has its limitations for anyone who likes to tinker under the hood, but for quick 'n easy results with a retro flavour it's a winner. Still not sure if I want to drop $69 on it (and definitely wouldn't pay $99) but will see how I'm feeling next payday

Suggestions for improvement:

* Solo as well as Mute per layer
* Audio out per layer
* More steps in sequencer
* Automatable wavetable menu, a la Thor

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QVprod
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15 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
15 Sep 2017
QVprod wrote:
15 Sep 2017


Exactly
Yea, we've talked this subject in circles before, remember?

There are those who stick by the "if it's not generating a waveform then it's not a 'real' synth" (it's a wavetable or sample based instrument).
And there are those that go with the "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck" analogy (as above).

Then there are those who go all 'old-school' and say "why the hell are you kids calling anything 'digital' a SYNTH in the first place?"!
;)

IMO what you choose to call it is all 'marketing'. In the end we use what we like, no matter what it's called or how it's made, right?
We can also take it a step further. To synthesize by definition is "to form (a material or abstract entity) by combining parts or elements"

;) but agreed. At the end of the day, does it do what you want it to do? That's all that matters. What you call it doesn't matter.

ltbrunt00
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15 Sep 2017

Been using layers for whats it worth it's like not having to think to much and getting some nice sounds quickly versus loading up a big Combi with four NNXT's and tons of effects. Layers should be packaged with reason.
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ltbrunt00
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15 Sep 2017

I give it a thumbs up. Plus with my current issue of having everything in a Combinator causing reason 9.5 to grind to a hault helps a little using this instead of having everything in a Combi.
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davidvilla
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15 Sep 2017

I haven't tried a rack extension in a long time. "What the hey, I'll give this a shot", I said. I kind of miss rack extensions, and I love everything Pinknoise does, so...yay. First reaction is "WOAH THIS IS SMALL". I'm used to resizing my VSTs on this 2560 X 1440 screen of mine. Then the sound isn't particularly exciting. I'm not sure what it is but it's kind of....blah. And the presets - there aren't that many....I think it's like a little over 200. WTF. Analogue Monsters has almost 2000 presets and it's only $46. Ok so fine, then there's the whole "this has the sound of the 80s and 90s blah blah blah". Tal UNO sounds more 80s than this and that's only $60. TAL Sampler comes with the Hollow Sound library which is ridiculously 80s, and that is also $60. Hell, the free version of Syntronik is better and that has 50 presets which you can modify and turn into completely different sounds, AND you can also layer 4 different presets.

Layers is not worth $69. If you buy it, you're an idiot. And I mean that in the nicest way possible. Step outside the rack, there are way better things out there.


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joeyluck
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16 Sep 2017

fieldframe wrote:
15 Sep 2017
joeyluck wrote:
15 Sep 2017
You had it right the first time ;) The only developer who made an IDT (instrument development toolkit) was UJAM :P

Those other developers have used the IDT. You could say, "make a RE using the IDT." Otherwise, it's along the same lines as saying, "I'd like to see Korg make another SDK for Reason." It's just one of those things that bugs me every time I read someone mentioning, "Is this another IDT?" "No, this is actually a RE and I'm not sure what version of the SDK they used and whether or not they used the IDT to make it." Haha.
While you are quite correct about the proper usage of the terms, I don't think there's anything particularly wrong about referring to an "IDT RE" as an "IDT" in shorthand. It's important to get these things right when there's potential for confusion, but in this case I don't think anyone is going to think developers are creating their own duplicates of the IDT SDK. :)
Yeah certainly nothing wrong with it. Just something that reads funny to me.

But in this particular case, it was referred to as "a RE (or rather, an IDT)" and I think that stands correcting after someone corrected themselves; making a distinction :puf_smile: Because it is in fact a RE and not an IDT.

Anyways, I know there are certainly things that I do/say that are technically incorrect. For instance I still say "rees" when referring to 'REs' even after some folks from Propellerhead said that they never call them "rees" and always refer to them as "arr•ees" or just "Rack Extensions."

But for me it's the GIF situation; it doesn't matter what the creator clarifies once it's in your head. Most of Propellerhead's products begin with "rē" and I've been pronouncing the short form of the plugin format that way since the beginning. Hard to quit. Can we bring back "Re-Rack"? Anybody remember that sticking for a while after the speculation days following the RE logo? :D

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Oquasec
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16 Sep 2017

That looks like an ID8 for synths. There's a use for it obviously and they have to be aware these patches sound like something you could conjure up in subtractor, and I think that might be the point of it. Not gonna try it, I know I won't buy it.

Some people care about those knobs & faders, and some just do not give a fuck about the intricacies of reason.
In my opinion, this will be good in keeping those other types of reason users occupied.

I used to be curious why propellerhead took so long to integrate vst format into their daw so I did tons of research on Reason.
I see what they were going for at the start.
Last edited by Oquasec on 16 Sep 2017, edited 1 time in total.
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QVprod
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16 Sep 2017

CaliforniaBurrito wrote:
15 Sep 2017
Amazing what great things can be done with things some think is crap. But we're Reason users, we already know that :puf_bigsmile:

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chimp_spanner
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16 Sep 2017

Hey to clarify I certainly don’t think it’s crap! Just a little less than what I usually expect from PH that’s all. They shouldn’t have set the bar so high 😄 I’ve still got most of the month to trial it so I will give it another shot.

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TritoneAddiction
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16 Sep 2017

I just want to clarify my comment earlier about Layers sounding "lifeless". I think the reason for it is that it is samples being played instead of waveforms being generated by the synth. When it's the latter there's always some sort of randomness to the attack. It might be subtle but I can sure hear the difference. I know some patches in Layers has varitations with filters and stuff when it comes to the velocity or some chorus floating around. But still, I find that it sounds "sampled" like it's using the same sample over and over again.
Now can you make great music with Layers? Of course. Most people will not hear any difference in a full mix. But when comparing Layers side to side to any other synth I find it lacking.

It's not terrible or "crap", it's just that Layers isn't "great" imo.

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theshoemaker
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16 Sep 2017

chimp_spanner wrote:
14 Sep 2017
I mean, FWIW @Miss...just get it (Nostromo that is!). It's absolutely fantastic. Literally an infinite source of new basses, plucks, pads and textures.

Agreed. Simply the best inspirational device in 0.5 seconds. Load with in patch. Hit randomize... Tweak. Enjoy
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QVprod
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16 Sep 2017

chimp_spanner wrote:
16 Sep 2017
Hey to clarify I certainly don’t think it’s crap! Just a little less than what I usually expect from PH that’s all. They shouldn’t have set the bar so high 😄 I’ve still got most of the month to trial it so I will give it another shot.
TritoneAddiction wrote:
16 Sep 2017
I just want to clarify my comment earlier about Layers sounding "lifeless". I think the reason for it is that it is samples being played instead of waveforms being generated by the synth. When it's the latter there's always some sort of randomness to the attack. It might be subtle but I can sure hear the difference. I know some patches in Layers has varitations with filters and stuff when it comes to the velocity or some chorus floating around. But still, I find that it sounds "sampled" like it's using the same sample over and over again.
Now can you make great music with Layers? Of course. Most people will not hear any difference in a full mix. But when comparing Layers side to side to any other synth I find it lacking.

It's not terrible or "crap", it's just that Layers isn't "great" imo.
I guess I should clarify as well. My comment was not directed at just anyone who doesn't think it's all that. I don't find it amazing either. Just think it deserves a little more credit than some here gave it. I agree (as I sort of mentioned earlier) that this RE is not like what Propellerhead usually puts out. With the exception of Radical Piano (some think it's amazing) I think most of the other REs are on a bit of a higher level.

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16 Sep 2017

QVprod wrote:
14 Sep 2017
miscend wrote:
14 Sep 2017
I think the price point is the main problem here. It's too high. It should be about 30 bucks.
Not really, The refill it's based on is $65. https://shop.propellerheads.se/product/ ... onsters-3/

That means the current intro price is just $3 more than the refill it's based off. There are far less capable VSTs that cost more like this one https://www.uvi.net/en/vintage-corner/d ... vol-2.html.

It makes me wonder though. For the people who have extreme negative outlooks on this RE (aside from the refill owners), have you actually looked at what it's capable of? It's a full blown synth. Just sample based. The oscillators (layers) just aren't all regular waveforms. I get that it doesn't have a mod matrix and not a lot of cv options, but it's quite capable on it's own. A bitley RE, as some mentioned earlier, wouldn't much functionally different than what this is aside from his content being larger.

The Kontakt edition of Analogue Monsters is roughly $70 (though it now seems to be on a permanent discount). It launched at a much higher price though.

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Oquasec
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16 Sep 2017

I get why Reason was built like that tbh. Rewire was pretty good too, and that will still get used once I get used to ableton.
I notice that each refill felt like a different vst.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Something that pegged me ass odd when it came to that format...it's as if each refill was a vst already, but not packaged as a RE.
But, with that being said I'd get this on sale for 20$ max no questions asked.
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EnochLight
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16 Sep 2017

I can't even stomach using ReWire since R9.5, but then again, I only used it in Studio One in a pinch. No need to anymore.
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Oquasec
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16 Sep 2017

I think I still prefer rewire, not too sure yet.
Really liking how Ableton handles Reason so far, might start using it in tracks later fr.
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kuhliloach
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16 Sep 2017

ANOTHER synth? Tell you what Propeller-people: I'll give you nine bucks for it. And if you're lucky maybe I'll use it too.

GRIFTY
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16 Sep 2017

what an underwhelming follow up to the incredible 9.5 update

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craven
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16 Sep 2017

WillyOD wrote:
14 Sep 2017
I just read the mail title and I thought we were getting a cool layering feature for the sequencer :(
yeah, was hoping that as well for a second before reading the mail.
:ugeek:

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nooomy
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16 Sep 2017



Here is my first impression. Can't say im very impressed.

Its a VERY mediocre RE for propellerhead.

Are they losing their flame after they were sold to the venture capitalist??

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