So what's on the horizon for REs?

[chimp_spanner]

Obviously I'm loving VSTs in Reason, but I'm still using REs way more. In fact, for virtually everything. So are there any rumblings or rumours as to upcoming REs? Not even too sure what I want or need, but I guess some more classic emulations wouldn't go amiss. Like Jupiters and Prophets and all that iconic stuff. We're kinda spoilt for choice as far as Moog stuff goes (VK 1 & 2, Legend). Would also like to see some more from Quadelectra. Maybe Oberheim or Yamaha models? Simmons?

I dunno. Kinda just thinking out loud really!

[Loque]

I wait for Nostromo 2 and still waiting for Kronos (was it that name?). I have a bunch of VSTs, but i use them only, if there is no RE that does the job. VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs, but they bring sometimes something to my rack, that wasn't available before (in most cases some glitchy stuff).

[scratchnsnifff]

Id be interested in anything by blamsoft, I am a sucker for their products but a while back buried in a predator 2 thread on RT I believe rob papen said he was working on an instrument that had some of predator 2's features hoping that it's still in the works, I feel like everyone is still playing with and getting lost with vsts, it's a big world and lots of options. But I also find my self using REs more. They are quicker, I'd use my vsts way more if the combinator had a learn function to assign rotaries to parameters in the vst, programming synthmaster 2 takes for ever in a combinator unless you know which Groups are what

[chimp_spanner]

I wait for Nostromo 2 and still waiting for Kronos (was it that name?). I have a bunch of VSTs, but i use them only, if there is no RE that does the job. VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs, but they bring sometimes something to my rack, that wasn't available before (in most cases some glitchy stuff).

Yeah like, most of my Kontakt libraries and things like Superior Drummer 2 - there's just no match for them, IMO. But that's fine. For everything else synthesis and effect wise Reason's got it all pretty much covered.

Ah yes, Nostromo 2. I still need to get 1 tbh. I demo'd it and fell in love with it but I just can't seem to find a good time to drop a hundred bucks on it (not saying it isn't worth it though!).

And yes, anything by Blamsoft is likely to be fantastic. Maybe they'll have a crack at granular next. I'd love to see a new drum synth RE. Like four or six super modern, aggressive and versatile percussion synth modules with direct multi-out. That'd be noice.

[Zac]

And yes, anything by Blamsoft is likely to be fantastic. Maybe they'll have a crack at granular next. I'd love to see a new drum synth RE. Like four or six super modern, aggressive and versatile percussion synth modules with direct multi-out. That'd be noice.

^^This, I'd love an all in one drum solution

[BRIGGS]

Something like this would be nice as an RE:

https://kilohearts.com/products/multipass

[Faastwalker]

Nostromo 2 is certainly on my radar. But beyond that things look pretty bleak on the Rack Extension horizon

[tiker01]

Nostromo 2 is certainly on my radar. But beyond that things look pretty bleak on the Rack Extension horizon

I think it is simply summer time on the North hemisphere so things are quite slow, even here. So don't worry I am sure there will be more interesting Re-s in 2017

[challism]

I'd certainly keep an eye out for Robotic Bean, Lectric Panda and Blamsoft to do some more interesting things in the coming year.

[KirkMarkarian]

And yes, anything by Blamsoft is likely to be fantastic. Maybe they'll have a crack at granular next. I'd love to see a new drum synth RE. Like four or six super modern, aggressive and versatile percussion synth modules with direct multi-out. That'd be noice.

^^This, I'd love an all in one drum solution

Yes, please! I've exhausted Kong's synthesis methods - I can get most sounds out of it, and I have other drum synths as well (BOOM 808 claims to be all synthesis, and I also have the EDS06s drum synth. I really want to get closer to the Max/MSP sounds, though. I keep looking at the Max/MSP 2020 synth/drum machine/sequencer. What is keeping me from buying it is that it is very generative and more for live performance.

I want more than 6 drums, though I like the Kong idea, of individual drum modules, just want more options, with a greater sound scope.

[SA Studio]

Apparently there is going to be a huge new era for RE's coming up soon that's, as I was specifically told by a rather prominent ReFill developer, will be taking over the entire industry.

There's a certain ReFill developer who says he has info about the format that he isn't at liberty to divulge, but the gist is that there is a new level of RE's coming out that, and this is just a hunch, will be able to be used in all DAWs. It's his impression that RE's are going to take over the entire plug-in industry.

I'm still waiting to see how this pans out. I don't want to name him, but I'm definitely waiting to see if there's any truth to it all.

[SA Studio]

I wait for Nostromo 2 and still waiting for Kronos (was it that name?). I have a bunch of VSTs, but i use them only, if there is no RE that does the job. VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs, but they bring sometimes something to my rack, that wasn't available before (in most cases some glitchy stuff).

"VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs"

VST's and RE's are absolutely NO different at all in terms of workflow, not on one single remote level. I strongly disagree. That's not a very well-rounded comment or opinion. There's no difference in "workflows" of VST or RE devices.

That just sounds like trash-talk against VST when it's entirely unfounded.

[joeyluck]

VST's and RE's are absolutely NO different at all in terms of workflow, not on one single remote level. I strongly disagree. That's not a very well-rounded comment or opinion. There's no difference in "workflows" of VST or RE devices.

That just sounds like trash-talk against VST when it's entirely unfounded.

Perhaps referring to things such as patch browsing, undo, resetting of individual controls, initializing devices, mouse knob precision, mouse drag direction? Workflow things. As I've been trying VSTs, I find I've been sticking with the ones that have a good workflow and fit my workflow best.

Plenty work ok with undo, while many do not. Some just don't work with undo at all while others will undo each and every little incremental step of a control (which is just as frustrating). Being able to reset a device for many VSTs is all about being about to track down the INIT patch if there is one. Some have an option to reset, while many do not.

I'm getting used to double-clicking to reset individual parameters on some devices. Others incorporate command+click like Reason does. And sometimes I come back to a Reason device and try to double-click a control! Haha

And then when I'm trying to use internal browsers, some work with arrow keys and others don't (causing error noises; I since turned those off).

There's plenty of amazing VSTs with great workflows. There are some that are just plain wonky, but still worth it for what they do. But to say that "VSTs and REs are no different at all in terms of workflow, not on a single remote level"? You must be kidding? VSTs aren't even the same in terms of workflow amongst themselves...

[Faastwalker]

I'd certainly keep an eye out for Robotic Bean, Lectric Panda and Blamsoft to do some more interesting things in the coming year.

Shining beacons in an Rack Extension desert for sure.

May their lights never go out ........ well, not for the foreseeable future.

[Faastwalker]

Apparently there is going to be a huge new era for RE's coming up soon that's, as I was specifically told by a rather prominent ReFill developer, will be taking over the entire industry. It's his impression that RE's are going to take over the entire plug-in industry.

Has this person ever visited the planet Earth?! I mean I hope there's a glimmer of truth in this but it sounds like world's beyond material to me! Maybe in a parallel universe RE's are prominent enough that Reason 9.5 DIDN'T include VST support because it absolutely didn't need it. Meanwhile all other major DAWs have been supporting the RE format for many years.

[electrochoc (PRX-A)]

^^This, I'd love an all in one drum solution

Yes, please! I've exhausted Kong's synthesis methods - I can get most sounds out of it, and I have other drum synths as well (BOOM 808 claims to be all synthesis, and I also have the EDS06s drum synth. I really want to get closer to the Max/MSP sounds, though. I keep looking at the Max/MSP 2020 synth/drum machine/sequencer. What is keeping me from buying it is that it is very generative and more for live performance.

I want more than 6 drums, though I like the Kong idea, of individual drum modules, just want more options, with a greater sound scope.

+1 for more drum synths! Meanwhile though, I've added Sonic Charge's Microtonic (a VST) to my arsenal: I wanted to add something similar to my old Korg Electribe ER-1 to my Reason rack, and Microtonic is pretty close to it, with some extras, like the possibility to synthesize claps from scratch (I've haven't seen this anywhere else). Sure, it lacks CV (CV would be great to control Microtonic from a Kong instance without having to create multiple copies of it), and its sequencer doesn't work well with the Reason main sequencer (unless I'm doing something wrong)... Microtonic would be a great Rack Extension, and I really wish something like that (or even better!) will see the day in the Rack Extension format!

[SA Studio]

VST's and RE's are absolutely NO different at all in terms of workflow, not on one single remote level. I strongly disagree. That's not a very well-rounded comment or opinion. There's no difference in "workflows" of VST or RE devices.

That just sounds like trash-talk against VST when it's entirely unfounded.

Perhaps referring to things such as patch browsing, undo, resetting of individual controls, initializing devices, mouse knob precision, mouse drag direction? Workflow things. As I've been trying VSTs, I find I've been sticking with the ones that have a good workflow and fit my workflow best.

Plenty work ok with undo, while many do not. Some just don't work with undo at all while others will undo each and every little incremental step of a control (which is just as frustrating). Being able to reset a device for many VSTs is all about being about to track down the INIT patch if there is one. Some have an option to reset, while many do not.

I'm getting used to double-clicking to reset individual parameters on some devices. Others incorporate command+click like Reason does. And sometimes I come back to a Reason device and try to double-click a control! Haha

And then when I'm trying to use internal browsers, some work with arrow keys and others don't (causing error noises; I since turned those off).

There's plenty of amazing VSTs with great workflows. There are some that are just plain wonky, but still worth it for what they do. But to say that "VSTs and REs are no different at all in terms of workflow, not on a single remote level"? You must be kidding? VSTs aren't even the same in terms of workflow amongst themselves...

Joey, realize, I've used sooo many RE's as well as VST's that no, there is no inherent difference between the two formats that's even worth mentioning.

EQ plugs all work and "flow" like EQ plugs = Same thing with an RE or VST compressor. All concepts are totally the same and no, I'm not crazy by any remote stretch. I literally have 1000's of hours using various plug-ins from VST to RE and on the whole, it's just not even worth arguing about.

You're even pointing out that some devices/plugs have some feature...and other just do not. That's how it is.

VST's are no harder to use or have any kind of drastically different "workflow" or scheme than RE's. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to listen to me about these things, Joey. There's really no reason to think of RE's being drastically different from VST any different than someone would compare AU to VST or RTAS to VST. See what I mean?

[Loque]

I wait for Nostromo 2 and still waiting for Kronos (was it that name?). I have a bunch of VSTs, but i use them only, if there is no RE that does the job. VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs, but they bring sometimes something to my rack, that wasn't available before (in most cases some glitchy stuff).

"VSTs often have some bad workflow or bugs"

VST's and RE's are absolutely NO different at all in terms of workflow, not on one single remote level. I strongly disagree. That's not a very well-rounded comment or opinion. There's no difference in "workflows" of VST or RE devices.

That just sounds like trash-talk against VST when it's entirely unfounded.

Lol... Just look at those fancy GUIs... Nuf said.

[riemac]

Apparently there is going to be a huge new era for RE's coming up soon that's, as I was specifically told by a rather prominent ReFill developer, will be taking over the entire industry.

There's a certain ReFill developer who says he has info about the format that he isn't at liberty to divulge, but the gist is that there is a new level of RE's coming out that, and this is just a hunch, will be able to be used in all DAWs. It's his impression that RE's are going to take over the entire plug-in industry.

I'm still waiting to see how this pans out. I don't want to name him, but I'm definitely waiting to see if there's any truth to it all.

Interesting to hear that there is something in the pipeline. Has this somthing to do with the rumor about a new sampler?

[eXode]

Apparently there is going to be a huge new era for RE's coming up soon that's, as I was specifically told by a rather prominent ReFill developer, will be taking over the entire industry.

There's a certain ReFill developer who says he has info about the format that he isn't at liberty to divulge, but the gist is that there is a new level of RE's coming out that, and this is just a hunch, will be able to be used in all DAWs. It's his impression that RE's are going to take over the entire plug-in industry.

I'm still waiting to see how this pans out. I don't want to name him, but I'm definitely waiting to see if there's any truth to it all.

Well played, young grasshopper, well played!

[JiggeryPokery]

there is no inherent difference between the two formats that's even worth mentioning.

Sorry, SA. That's just not true. There is at least one that's definitely worth mentioning. But you know, NDA and all that prevents a detailed discussion.

But the short version: graphics and custom displays.

I suggest you compare the draw rate of Proton with its basic GUI custom display lines to that of, say, Serum, which is vastly more complex. There's no lag manipulating the GUI in Serum.

But hit the mod page display button on Proton for the first time after instancing (subsequent redraws do seem a bit faster, probably because it's not initialised until it's first called) and you can see Reason struggling to draw basic boxes: it's not drawn instantly, it probably takes a good quarter second, and bare in mind I'm on an 8-Core Ryzen with a Geforce 1070 so I'm sure it's going to be very noticeable for users on some older machines. (There may have been a workaround (other than not using that many boxes ) that would have made Proton's draw a bit faster that we suspect is not in place, but it's hard to tell). And we've tested this ourselves.

Reason's graphics are so far behind what is possible in a dedicated VST it's not funny. We've been working on one of—quite possibly the most—complex draws of any RE yet published, and it's been painful, and very difficult to test in the SDK's logging version of Reason, so that we have to upload everything to the server to test it in Reason Actual, just to stand a chance of giving it a proper test. The last SDK update was useful in that it [redacted#1] but then bizarrely didn't [redacted#2] to actually allow [redacted#1] to be as useful as it should be. And also passing data from the custom display code to the C++ code or vice versa forces a lot of compromise and loss of functionality.

The upshot: you're wrong. 100%. Sorry.

[chimp_spanner]

I guess on a practical and technical level, there are *obviously* some differences, otherwise we wouldn't have needed (or been so excited about) VST support. I don't know what the limitations are, but either way I've never seen the differences as particularly good or bad. At least not from my perspective. As a developer like JP I imagine it can be frustrating sometimes. But for someone like me, REs have always felt more "physical". Which I know is probably a psychological phenomena (it looks like gear so it feels like gear) but either way, that's what I always liked about Reason. No - or very little - menu diving. Just knobs, faders, cables and sockets. It's exactly the reason I've started gravitating towards hardware synths even though I have comparable, or even superior VSTs. Immediacy, and fun.

Now obviously VSTs can have that too. There's nothing about the format that prevents it. But I think the limitations of the SDK have inspired a whole slew of hardware style devices that maybe we wouldn't have had otherwise. Plus the whole CV workflow is kinda unique to the format. Closest I've come to that in VST is Reaktor, or Softube Modular.

I am really excited, as a consumer, to see what PH do with the SDK next. I think/hope they're receptive to the concerns of developers and really their next move with the RE format needs to be the right one. All eyes are on them right now after the splash they made with 9.5.

Until then I'll just keep checking the rack store. Not even sure what else I need right now. I just love buying racks. I'm what the mobile gaming industry would refer to as a "whale" when it comes to racks haha.

[avasopht]

@SA Studio

The workflow difference between REs and VSTs is the workflow difference between a DAWs integrated channel EQ/compressor and using a VST. It's the difference of UX that can be miniscule or significant depending on the preferences of the user.

It would be incorrect to call it lying or ignorance if two users disagree. We are all different. Some find FLStudio easy, some convoluted, some crappy and some find it perfect. It's not because they're lying or ignorant of other DAWs, they just experience the workflow differently.

[joeyluck]

Perhaps referring to things such as patch browsing, undo, resetting of individual controls, initializing devices, mouse knob precision, mouse drag direction? Workflow things. As I've been trying VSTs, I find I've been sticking with the ones that have a good workflow and fit my workflow best.

Plenty work ok with undo, while many do not. Some just don't work with undo at all while others will undo each and every little incremental step of a control (which is just as frustrating). Being able to reset a device for many VSTs is all about being about to track down the INIT patch if there is one. Some have an option to reset, while many do not.

I'm getting used to double-clicking to reset individual parameters on some devices. Others incorporate command+click like Reason does. And sometimes I come back to a Reason device and try to double-click a control! Haha

And then when I'm trying to use internal browsers, some work with arrow keys and others don't (causing error noises; I since turned those off).

There's plenty of amazing VSTs with great workflows. There are some that are just plain wonky, but still worth it for what they do. But to say that "VSTs and REs are no different at all in terms of workflow, not on a single remote level"? You must be kidding? VSTs aren't even the same in terms of workflow amongst themselves...

Joey, realize, I've used sooo many RE's as well as VST's that no, there is no inherent difference between the two formats that's even worth mentioning.

EQ plugs all work and "flow" like EQ plugs = Same thing with an RE or VST compressor. All concepts are totally the same and no, I'm not crazy by any remote stretch. I literally have 1000's of hours using various plug-ins from VST to RE and on the whole, it's just not even worth arguing about.

You're even pointing out that some devices/plugs have some feature...and other just do not. That's how it is.

VST's are no harder to use or have any kind of drastically different "workflow" or scheme than RE's. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to listen to me about these things, Joey. There's really no reason to think of RE's being drastically different from VST any different than someone would compare AU to VST or RTAS to VST. See what I mean?

Perhaps I'm just confusing something here? But the workflows are quite different, very often. Again, for all of the reasons I mentioned. REs are consistent, as they are a proprietary format and are required to work a specific way and integrate in numerous ways with the host. VSTs are not. I guess what you are saying is that VSTs, for the most part can have many of the same behaviors of REs? And I can agree with that. But when I use a VST that can't have it's actions be undone, another which works well with undo, and then use another VST which undoes every incremental step... or which the knobs require circular mouse drag to turn them rather than vertical, some that don't support precise knob adjustments and fly all around... not being able to use one central browser for all plugins, and using the various different internal VST browsers that act differently between one another. The workflows for the various plugins are in fact very different and great for some plugins and crappy for others. If we are talking about 'VST' the format and not the various 'VST' plugins, then yes, their workflows could be similar and in some cases are pretty close.

[jayhosking]

I see a few RE developers in here, so I just wanted to say it so it's clear: some of us vastly prefer using REs to VSTs. VSTs are great for very specific instances, like using my Waves bundle, but I'd rather use an in-rack synth like Solaris or Expanse before a VST. I know catering to the Reason crowd is probably a financially poor decision, but just know that there are a bunch of us out there who really dig the RE format and would happily continue buying things that perform new and interesting functions and sound palettes.

I'm buying Proton today, for example, as I have nothing else in my rack that sounds and works the same. It's such a great way to toy with any sound samples I have lying around, and get an interesting outcome. And I can guarantee that I wouldn't be buying it if it were a VST, because I couldn't easily try it for a month, it wouldn't be as good a price point, and it wouldn't sync from the Prop Shop (where all my other REs are) with utter simplicity.

I hope you all keep making great, new, interesting things.