Effects: Any advantages of VSTs over REs

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OldGoat
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30 May 2017

Dear all,

I really understand that it is amazing to have certain VST-Instruments in the Rack that cannot be created with the APIs/Technologies available to Reason Developers/Sound-Designers.
However, can someone explain why there are currently also lots of threads regarding VST-Effects?
Even PH is selling such stuff now...
Does for example the WAVES-Stuff have any feature or option that isn't available in the Mixing-and-Mastering-RE-Bundle?
I doubt that, but I'm not an expert...

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Loque
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30 May 2017

VSTs advantages are often better CPU performance, scaleable and free designeable GUI, no limitations through RE SDK (but to VST SDK ofc).

As of advantages are also disadvantages. They are not cross compatible, 32/64 bit problems, licensing, doesnt fit into the rack, no CV, often unstable (mostly free ones that are poor coded), and due the VSTs are not fully in a sandbox, they can now make Reason completly crash atm.

The Waves Gold Bundle has lots of stuff, that is available in Reason or as RE, well at least from the type of FS. That means, a amp is not amp in any case, they differ in workflow, implementation, sound and many more. A reverb doesnt sound always the same from each developer as an example and some are easier to use than others for special purposes. So its finally up to you, if you can get something usefull and unique out of this bundle. I can imagine with the billions of VSTs this will be a hard task :-D

As a suggestion, find out what you really need/want, than look what exists outside, test it and make a decision.
Reason12, Win10

madmacman
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30 May 2017

In contrast to the list of available RE's, the realm of VST effects seems endless - hence the overall excitement I guess. Regarding effects: despite the fact, that KVR currently lists ~300 free effects for Mac/64 bit, you need to find the small number of gems (as Loque said) in the flood of crap.

I have added some free mastering fx to my toolbox (TDR Nova, lkjb Luftikus) and besides this, I'm neither impressed, nor excited. Which may have the reason in the fact that I have done all that tinkering before (I was for many years Cubase and/or Logic user).

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dvdrtldg
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30 May 2017

SYNC ALL is the main reason I'm going to continue with REs

madmacman
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30 May 2017

dvdrtldg wrote:SYNC ALL is the main reason I'm going to continue with REs
But only if Props add one day the option "skip from Sync". I have ~50% of RE's which I no longer want to have in my Reason setup. With "Sync All" I get the whole sh*t back into my device browser.

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dvdrtldg
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30 May 2017

Fair point. But does it bother you that much to have them sitting in your browser?

madmacman
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30 May 2017

dvdrtldg wrote:Fair point. But does it bother you that much to have them sitting in your browser?
Well, it's similar to the complaints of the VST collectors: the browser tends to clutter and I still cannot familiarize with the search field. I usually find the tools I want "visually" by scrolling through the list of screenshots.

Lov2sing
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30 May 2017

The problem with choice is over kill. What I mean as a friend told me learn to be satisfied with what one has and learn that tool to its Max's. It is great to have all the new tools but before cluttering your browser with a bunch of tools, find your needs then work within that spectrum. The hard part is the new car smell where everyone is starry eyed over new things. Don't get me wrong I love new things but we don't get 30 days to check out a VST and that within it self makes me slow down, plus I believe I have all but two things covered in RE's. :D
We make music for a reason

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Oquasec
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30 May 2017

An overflow of extra options is a good thing, but seriously. With that being said I'll still add these 5 vsts to my collection.
Sylenth1
Omnisphere
Kairatune
Electrax
Zebra
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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gullum
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30 May 2017

the advantage is that their are shitlots of VST and thats also it's disadvantage. the real advantage I can see is that I can get some devises that I need but are not there as a RE

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selig
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30 May 2017

Lov2sing wrote:The problem with choice is over kill. What I mean as a friend told me learn to be satisfied with what one has and learn that tool to its Max's. It is great to have all the new tools but before cluttering your browser with a bunch of tools, find your needs then work within that spectrum. The hard part is the new car smell where everyone is starry eyed over new things. Don't get me wrong I love new things but we don't get 30 days to check out a VST and that within it self makes me slow down, plus I believe I have all but two things covered in RE's. :D
I totally agree the first thing to do is self limit the choices.

For example…
To the painter, there are FAR too many color choices available - it's paralyzingly, right? But somehow painters still manage to get work done. What some seem to suggest is that those providing the colors shouldn't provide so many options - but how do you tell a painter to be satisfied with just one shade of green in the store?

IMO the reason to have so many choices is so you can choose an even MORE unique color palette from among the choices - not necessarily so you can collect all possible choices!
;)


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Lov2sing
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30 May 2017

I totally like your reasoning. I have the V collection by Arturia just because those synths I grew up with but for the modern sound I may get an extra synth however with all the colors one could easily be choosing color samples and never get to painting (to borrow your analogy). My last thought on this is, great paint is only as good as the artist. So work on painting and not on paint.
We make music for a reason

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selig
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30 May 2017

Lov2sing wrote:I totally like your reasoning. I have the V collection by Arturia just because those synths I grew up with but for the modern sound I may get an extra synth however with all the colors one could easily be choosing color samples and never get to painting (to borrow your analogy). My last thought on this is, great paint is only as good as the artist. So work on painting and not on paint.
But great artists ALSO care a great deal about the paint/colors- it's the foundation of their craft (though maybe not their art?).

For me there is a "art" side and a "craft" side. The greats I've had the pleasure of observing in their natural habitat care about BOTH, though they segment the process so that they're not stressing over their tools when working on their art (or vice-versa!).

As a great Rock/Paper/Scissors master once said: Choose Wisely.
:)


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Lov2sing
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30 May 2017

selig wrote:
Lov2sing wrote:I totally like your reasoning. I have the V collection by Arturia just because those synths I grew up with but for the modern sound I may get an extra synth however with all the colors one could easily be choosing color samples and never get to painting (to borrow your analogy). My last thought on this is, great paint is only as good as the artist. So work on painting and not on paint.
But great artists ALSO care a great deal about the paint/colors- it's the foundation of their craft (though maybe not their art?).

For me there is a "art" side and a "craft" side. The greats I've had the pleasure of observing in their natural habitat care about BOTH, though they segment the process so that they're not stressing over their tools when working on their art (or vice-versa!).

As a great Rock/Paper/Scissors master once said: Choose Wisely.
:)
I agree but as we both have seen where many believe if I get the tool it will make me better however if one has all the tools in the world it will not substitute for talent, skill and good practice. I think we are saying around the same thing but you get to work in the environment I use to be in when back back in the day you only had was anolog and very little digital tools. Don't get me wrong I happy for the new tools but I never allow myself to forget about the person that has the tools but still can't paint. All I am saying is learn your tools as you practice on your skill. Then you will find it's good to have many colors but it's better if people remember one skill and not your tool box. Although I never met you personally I know your skill set by reading and others talking about you, and regardless if you had one color or a million you're an artist at what you do. Be blessed.

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We make music for a reason

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PeZiK
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30 May 2017

I got really excited about VST in Reason, but after a while when installing a couple of them and try - I suddenly remember why I love the Reason ecosystem so much - non clutter and all in one place nice and tidy. VST's are nice but I find them messy - and I didn't get that WOW from the top notch synths...it was already there as Re.

I purchased the Sonic Charge bundle and I think I'll stop there....I just want Re's.

P.

xbitz
Posts: 154
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30 May 2017

can follow the non-Reason tutorials on youtube(for ex.) much more easily, it's quite big help
:reason: :recycle: :re: :record: :refill: :rt:

avasopht
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30 May 2017

The benefit of VSTs is that there are some VST that just don't have RE counterparts.

There's also a much more mature market, so you can quite easily just buy the Native Instruments Komplete Ultimate bundle and be sure you have pretty much everything you could need to make music, from orchestral sounds to some of the most coveted drum kits and quality groove loops.

I like to think of it as the best of both worlds.

I currently try to make do with fewer tools, as I've found you can be just as expressive with a good refined palette. But when needed I now have additional options.

AJ_3000
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05 Jun 2017

I don't think anyone has mentioned that (in my experience) the majority of vst's the developers allow license transfers. This allows one to live with a plugin for a longer period than the month PH offer. if eventually it dawns on you the purchase was not suited to your workflow etc then you are not stuck with something as there are active marketplaces where one may sell the plugin recouping something at least and seeing that the plugin finds a new owner which hopefully puts i to good use.

Of course the market for secondhand VST's opens opportunities for the acquisition of bargain price software , if one is prepared to wait until items become available . New , hot items are usually scarce but most things come up eventually . It's a good low risk way to try this or that synth or effect to see if they are really a good fit, by giving one time to get to grips with the deeper aspects in real situations. How much of an impact this makes on developers revenue is something I do wonder about , but it is so widespread it is I would suggest it's quite small compared to piracy , a problem thankfully eliminated by the security measures in Reason , at least for REs afaik.

I would guess that some people avoid committing to NFR 'not for resale' software where alternatives can be purchased and sold if unsuitable . There will always be a premium on new items , ironic considering usually the license offers the same rights to secondhand customers. It just seems expected that new software depreciates even if current and supported . But at least a proportion of one 's spend can be recovered .

This ability to sell on s/h is a useful safety net in these volatile times, which I suppose are sadly even riskier for individuals striving to make their main income from any creative art. Knowing that if the worst came to the worst then one could recover some of the cost of software might sway purchase choices?

PH told me administering secondhand sales would make too much work when last I asked about selling RE, though they claimed to have no plan to allow VST in the same breath . They expressed concern that some people would speculate in such a market. I guess they meant buying discounted bundled RE from them and selling the content to make a profit - in this respect maybe shop sale prices could be affected?

I would welcome the perspective of a RE developer to this difference between the two markets . They are still separate since RE can not run without Reason, whereas VST have been welcomed by PH. I would imagine some may have misgivings as although personally I see the advantage of cv/gate over vst make RE remain attractive , maybe some will see their customer base eroded. With eg Kontakt easily being used how successfully will the sample based units in RE format compete? I hope there is a place for all types of device but I cannot but wonder? Similarly would an active secondhand market for RE be helpful to developers, encouraging people to purchase kit to try medium term if the demo gives a good impression ?

jlgrimes
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06 Jun 2017

I would say with having VSTs this opens Reason up to the number of great free VSTs.

While Rack Extensions GUI have improved a lot, certain things would be difficult to do with Rack Extensions such as certain GUI focused effects such as Izotope, Fabfilter as most REs have an analog "Reasonish" GUI.

Also if you prefer something like Maschine/FL Studio/Geist, this opens Reason up.

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davidvilla
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09 Jun 2017

VSTS are just better. PERIOD.

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eXode
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09 Jun 2017

selig wrote:For example…
To the painter, there are FAR too many color choices available - it's paralyzingly, right? But somehow painters still manage to get work done. What some seem to suggest is that those providing the colors shouldn't provide so many options - but how do you tell a painter to be satisfied with just one shade of green in the store?

IMO the reason to have so many choices is so you can choose an even MORE unique color palette from among the choices - not necessarily so you can collect all possible choices!
;)
I always thought that artists in general only use a selection of basic colors, and black and white. Isn't that what the palette is for? So basically a selection of i.e. 16 colors, and if you need another shade of green you just mix with black, white or some other color. :)

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selig
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09 Jun 2017

eXode wrote:
selig wrote:For example…
To the painter, there are FAR too many color choices available - it's paralyzingly, right? But somehow painters still manage to get work done. What some seem to suggest is that those providing the colors shouldn't provide so many options - but how do you tell a painter to be satisfied with just one shade of green in the store?

IMO the reason to have so many choices is so you can choose an even MORE unique color palette from among the choices - not necessarily so you can collect all possible choices!
;)
I always thought that artists in general only use a selection of basic colors, and black and white. Isn't that what the palette is for? So basically a selection of i.e. 16 colors, and if you need another shade of green you just mix with black, white or some other color. :)
I "thought" that's what I said… ;)
It's definitely what I intended to say!


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miscend
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09 Jun 2017

Plugins all sound the same. I prefer hardware always.

tanni
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10 Jun 2017

Plugins all sound the same. I prefer hardware always.
I wouldnt say that all plugins sound the same. There are big differences between plugin and plugin. There are a lot plugins on the market, also many free plugins, which sound the same, thats right, but not all. Its on you to choice the right combinations for your work. In Reason the combinator stands for personalizing your own sound.

Today I also prefer hardware more and more, because often there are vst-editors for that hardware that works now in Reason too (example: Moog Sub37, Novation Ultranova, Roland Boutiques JU-06, JX-03, JP-08, Virus TI, etc.). So I have a great sound and dont stress my CPU over. You get the best of both worlds.

I think the most difficulty is to take the right choices and limiting yourself. It needs a lot of self-discipline. That are the problems of todays days :puf_smile:

sdst
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10 Jun 2017

delay and reverb are much better in vst

I never found a good delay in reason at the level of fabfilter and psp delays

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