Proton Granular Synth!

[TritoneAddiction]

Good suggestion to have the browser close after making a final patch selection, though not sure how to 'tell' the browser you're done browsing.

In earlier version you DO close the browser when you click "OK" - until you do that it stays open, right (hoping I remember correctly). So it takes a single click to close it in earlier versions, and takes a single click to close it now too! I'm in the habit of using F3 to open/close the browser, and I don't believe it's taking me any more total clicks than before, but I could be mis-remembering how things used to work!

Yes it's either clicking "Ok" or a double click on the patch. I guess the only minor difference is that in R7 I open the menu for a reason while in R8 or 9 the browser is just there regardless of whether I want it to be there or not.
I'm sure I'll get used to the browser when I upgrade. Who knows, maybe I'll even end up liking it.

Anyway let's not turn this thread into a discussion about Reasons browser. Let's get back to the topic, Proton.

[Peter]

A combinator skin patch would be fantastic if anybody wants to get down with that!

I'm not one of those folks who "combine" everything but it's obviously pretty important for this synth.

[selig]

A combinator skin patch would be fantastic if anybody wants to get down with that!

I'm not one of those folks who "combine" everything but it's obviously pretty important for this synth.

I believe Gustav already made one - Gustav?

[etyrnal2]

Ok, after playing with this Proton Re for hours and hours, here's my ideas:

i have a bunch of ideas for improvements. i have ideas for new features.

First, an odd behavior: Notice the pitch change when the LFO changes direction, and is driving the Position parameter, and the Length is VERY small (file linked below).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/688 ... ect.reason

THREE desperately needed features, needed right away:

1.) A KNOB in the Emitter section that PRECEDES everything in the signal chain for "BOOST". Why? Because when loading samples with a WIDE range of levels, it would be nice to be able to boost the quiet sections up LOUDER. For example, if i load a Xylophone strike, and i want to start the Position late in the sample, and use the envelope to slowly drive the Position BACKWARDS through the wave toward the beginning of the wave, the sound is SO quiet, because i am sourcing the timbre from within the sample's falloff. This is a fun trick for growing teh spectral content of a sound over time, but the problem is that the end of teh sample is SO quiet. So, it would be awesome, if hidden behind a single knob is a "BOOST" function that simultaneously boosts the gain (up to 24dB), and then compresses/limits it. So, at a setting of zero, the BOOST knob would do nothing, at 50% it's be boosting by like 12dB with heavy compression, but at 100%, it would be boosting 24dB, and the compression would basically be brick wall limiting. This way the quietest parts could be brought up to the levels of the loudest parts without boosting the loud parts any higher. The Knob could be called something physics related to go with the Proton theme... Like FLUX, or "G" (Gravity).

2.) A single "Spectral Makeup" knob. Sometimes after going through the emitter, some of the high spectral content becomes dull/thrashed. It would be nice to boost some of it back up, or emphasize it. Actually, it might be cool to have a dual concentric knob (it's be the first i've seen on a Re). The center of the knob could be HIGH frequency make-up, and the outer part of the knob could be low frequency boost (for when trying to create BASS sounds. The high boost could be called "Lightning", and the low boost knob could be called "Thunder", or "Bosons" and "Quarks" ... LOL!

3.) We desperately need a way to randomize the grains in the stereo field to WIDEN THE SOUND. Many samples do NOT give a very wide sounding sound stage. The ability to adjust a knob to increasingly widen the alternation, or randomization of grains as far as panning goes would be great.

Other GREAT IDEAS :

1.) a function where, if the user command-clicks on the word ROOT in the pitch section, the synth would, in the background, would analyze the output of the emitter and set the ROOT, and adjust the cents in order to try to set the root and fine tune it automatically. Once SET the word ROOT could show up green , any time any adjustments are made to the emitter that could affect the pitch, the word ROOT would turn red to indicate that the tune may need to be re calculated.

2.) Another MODE. Mode 3. In mode three, there could be up to 3 Positions in the SAME loaded sample. There would be a way to adjust the Emitter for each unique Position. This way, the person designing the patch could source multiple places in the loaded sample to build the texture up into something more complex. Each Position could either use the same Emitter settings, or maybe there could be unique settings for each Position (new emitter). These could be created by control clicking on the displayed sample waveform. Then, when clicking on P1 (position one) in the display, the Emitter settings would show the settings for the P1 Position, if clicking on the P2 Position, the P2 settings would load into the Emitter section (and maybe the P2 marker in the display would blink slowly?). And so on.

3.) Another MODE. Mode 4. Mode 4 would be the ability to load either of, an ENTIRE REX file (up to 88 slices), or load a SLICED UP audio track block -- loaded into the Proton's sample memory as a sample that included the slices (Positions). The slices would be mapped to keys on the keyboard. Or an LFO, or Envelope, or CV could be used to make the Emitter read from the different Slice (Position) locations -- for stuff like beat mangling/triggering, or for stuttering & granulating effects of vocals etc. A simple internal step sequencer could eventually be used to make the Position jump to (or glide to) the different slice locations. This would be great for driving predictable rhythms/patterns of jumping to different areas of timbre, or drum hits, or words, or syllables in a loaded sample. A producers dream come true. Think Sphongle, BT, Dubstep, etc.

4.) The ability to randomly alter the pitch of INDIVIDUAL slices, or to quantify the randomization of pitches to set notes. For example if i am writing in a scale of Cm, i could set it so that some percent of slices would randomly be pitch altered to notes in the key i am using, to add character to the sound.

5.) Feedback. It would be great to be able to set a percentage of grains to be fed back into the emitter.

6.) Up to THREE distinct samples loaded! This way timbres could be built up and specifically designed. Being able to add subtle splashes of audio color to perfect the sound. It would be awesome if ONE of the timbres could be used as a dynamic control over the other two. Meaning build up a complex texture using two or three grain cloud setups, and use a one as modulator for the others. Imagine having the "Audio In" "filter" of the Parsec 2. The last graincloud could be used to 'vocode' the rest of the sound, whether it be a drum sound to create an intense dynamic attack, or a drum loop to get a pulsed rhythmic spectral modulation...

7.) Add the "Audio Input" 'filter' like the Parsec 2 has, and add the "Ensemble" 'filter' too. Maybe that would help with stereo imaging? (or it might make it a complete spectral time-domain washout nightmare).

Just some ideas...

Thanks SO much for considering! This Synth is AWESOME! And i HOPE it becomes WAY more awesome!

have an awesome day!
Luke (aka abraxis aka etyrnal)

[hamzter]

Here's the combi skin I made. Mind you, it was VERY quickly thrown together in the final hour before our release deadline...

[etyrnal2]

Yeah this may be the upgrade that pushes me over the edge to upgrade from 8.3. Sample loading is going to have a lot of promise for the RE format!

there's a TON of reasons to get to 9.2!!

[etyrnal2]

This synth is exactly what I've been looking for. Now I won't have to work outside Reason for granular sound. Fantastic! I have Fritz as well, and this covers areas that Fritz does not. It's like having my dream of Max/MSP inside of Reason, except it's now much easier to use!

the only thing i miss from Fritz in Proton is, Feedback, and the pitch probability section. I'd LOVE to be able to randomly pitch grains and constrain that probability the certain intervals, or to notes within the key i'm writing in...

[etyrnal2]

* Reverse and ping pong playback modes would be nice, although I guess you could achieve this yourself with some editing

Not quite sure what you mean... Are you talking about being able to reverse the sample you load or something else?

Best regards,
Gustav[/quote]

he's talking about about the playback of the individual grains... play grain forward, or backwards, or randomly forward or backward, or play forward and backward (pingpong)... it's a Fritz thing (and other prehistoric grain cloud engines)

[etyrnal2]

Kind of a shame they kept the style of their other REs around the screen part. I know the functionality is the important part, but I also want to feel inspired by the look!

i don't prefer the look either, but after playing with it for HOURS, i'll say the layout is VERY smart, and i LOVE LOVE LOVE the envelope!!

That should be the STANDARD for ALL envelopes that are not straight ADSR. i'd love to see TWO MORE of these envelopes in there too! Along with up to FOUR complete grain clouds (sample, emitter, pitch section, filter, etc)

i'd also LOVE to see an externally patchable Feedback. i.e. send emitter output to an external effect, and back into the input to mix it back into the grain buffer .

[etyrnal2]

Say here's a question; what happens to patches that you save that use external samples?

As far as I know, the patches for Rack Extensions work exactly the same way as patches with samples do for the legacy Reason devices.

Best regards,
Gustav

i tried saving patches that use FACTORY soundbank samples, and it won't let me. Which makes NO sense since EVERY copy of Reason WILL have the Factory Soundbank.

Also, i tried saving a patch that referenced a sound that i created when i used "bounce to new sample" , and it wouldn't let me save it.

[etyrnal2]

As others have mentioned about the lag...I agree.

ZERO lag on my Mac Pro. nothing. instant feedback.

[etyrnal2]

Great features, but please give it a conventional user interface. It doesn't have to be this cramped and please have regular right clickable controls.
The led concept is cute, but limiting and not particularly inviting.

if you sit and create patches and experiment with it for hours, you start to see more and more how efficient the UI is. i'd rather have a super smart efficient workflow, than pretty/conformed interface.

[etyrnal2]

which would mean no waveform display or mod envelope (or the ability to drag on the knob OR the numeric display).

for those reason, i'm begging you... DO NOT change the style! plus why would anyone want all the devices to be so uniform looking that the whole rack looks painfully boring.

is it IMPOSSIBLE to add the right-click abilities to the existing interface? or would it just take more development time?

i'd love to be able to map midi controller knobs to some parameters for live automation magic. this is totally impossible?

[etyrnal2]

As for the space...The Pitch and Mod wheels

i don't understand why the pitch wheel can't be set to zero. i know of no other device where you cannot set the pitch wheel to zero.

[etyrnal2]

Cool colors like blues and greens will ALWAYS be more attractive.

...to YOU.

[etyrnal2]

If it was up to me, and possible to do so, I'd add a knob that dials through all possible colors so you can choose your own…

This is where the inspiration for the LoveOne GUIs come from:



I'm old enough to having programmed computers like this and be nostalgic about it... Which is probably why I just *love* their design.

/G

LOVE IT!!!

besides, when i play my tracks for people, they can't see the colors of the UI anyway... unless they have synesthesia... and even if they do, there's NO guarantee they'll see the colors You were thinking of when You wrote it.

...wanna taste my bass?

[etyrnal2]

I like everything about it. GUI is cool, different and sharp. And loading chord samples in this fool is so crazy. Having fun with it, so I guess I should buy it.
Ahhh, but I so want to wait and see what else will be coming up.

tx
M

i bought before i could even try it. i've been waiting more than 12 years for this. i studied the manual while i was at work, and could "hear" in my mind everything it would/could to. Got home and updated my licenses... was instantly delighted to hear that i was totally spot on with my predictions. And VERY pleasantly surprised with the awesome MOD envelope! Love that thing!

except i am irritated by the modulation driven Position causing bizarre pitch effects when a VERY small grain sizes (down at single wavelength Lengths).... as can be heard in this reason song file. press any key and hold it down until the LFO reverses directions a few times.

it hurts my mind... and makes me despair

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/688 ... ect.reason

[etyrnal2]

I might be wrong, but there doesn't seem to be a way to change the direction of the emitters. That's a pretty important feature in a granular synth.
Of course I can just reverse the sample, but would be pretty handy.

agree. it should be a couple of additional "Types" in the Mode 2 emitter. Add these "Types": random (Frwrd/Bckwrds), random (xfaded), backwards, backward xfaded, PingPong (forward<>backward -- no xfading needed).

[etyrnal2]

Am I missing a way to control the speed of the emitter?

length?

in Mode 2 the length will control the speed (in a sense)

this is not the Fritz. It's not firing off numerous emitters for a single keypress. different concept.

[etyrnal2]

On the other hand, $55 to support this developer seems like money well spent

hell yeah it is! if i had to choose between food, drugs, sleep, lithium, bubble wrap, and the Proton, the Proton get's my dollars! The price is decent too! i'm so glad they didn't decide to gouge us! =D

[etyrnal2]

This gets my money. I have been jonesing for this kind of stuff since REs were introduced.

i've been jonesing for this stuff since BEFORE Malstrom! And back when i started very vocally advocating for it, nobody even comprehended the seriously legendary mystical powers of granular... and nobody i tried to make understand back then seemed to be able to grasp the concept...

i guess i was one of the few who used to do crazy experiments with old hardware samplers and micro-looping etc, and sweeping through samples with tiny loops and experimenting with envelopes, etc...

FINALLY people are starting to get it.

This interface does a VERY good job of making a very complex kind of synthesis accessible through a VERY smart interface! Simple interface to control very complex background algorithms.

[etyrnal2]

Its a bit of a cpu killer when using playing multiple long release notes (or rapid-fire retriggering)

Apart from that, its really amazing!

the thing is... when you're writing, a patch all by itself, and there's no other sounds going on, and you're making it super lush and smooth, you're not considering how much of that will even be perceptible when the rest of the music is playing with it...

meaning, you might be wasting all the extra super high density, because once the rest of the music is going with it, some of that is going to be a huge waste... so, when the rest of the music is playing, you can reduce the "Life" until you get a satisfying result that still gives the listener the 'feel' or the 'impression' of the effect... i.e. you might have something cranked up so 'amazing' that 30% of the extra "quality" isn't even going to be detected when the rest of the reverb tails are washing all over the place etc...

perception is king in the end

[etyrnal2]

Might be a stupid question, but i had Proton in a Combinator with a loaded sample and wanted to save the Combinator patch. Than i received a error message regarding song-plus settings, telling me to extract the sample. How can i save a patch with my own sample loaded?

have fun with that. i feel like the save process should just extract the sample, and embed it in the patch file. but that's just me. (unless it's using a sample from the Factory Soundbank, then it should be able to save without it, knowing it will always be able to find it when loaded)

[etyrnal2]

I got the solution. I have to un-select the sample, than i can save the patch. But, the sample is not within the patch. Weird stuff... So, Benedict, your help was not realy helpful.

i agree. i see no reason why the patch, if saved alone, and NOT in a refill, shouldn't have the sample EMBEDDED in the patch file.

who wants to separately manage patch files and samples??

Why on earth you can embed the sample data in a refill, but not a patch is truly weird.

[etyrnal2]

I think Neutron & the Chaotic Signal Generator look spot on.

do you write patches?

how could you want the informationally cryptic looking Neutron emitter/buffer status display, or the VERY VERY informative and interactive display of the Proton's waveform display?

You've got to be kidding.

And the ability to create amazing envelopes, and see have far reaching their effects are, visually displayed, and instantly updated as you make adjustments, is not preferable? i just cannot see the UI on the Neutron being more useful, or more informative, or more info-graphic-intuitive than Proton's.