Ladder Multimode Filter is in the Shop 39€

[Marco Raaphorst]

I can understand why people prefer low CPU usage but I've gotten in the habit of bouncing all of my sounds to audio once I'm satisfied with them, which greatly alleviates the problem and also helps productivity because it forces me to be decisive with my sounds. otherwise, with the amount of tracks and devices I use in a project, my CPU is inevitably going to be slammed regardless of how much each RE contributes (unless it's 100 McDSPs haha). maybe other people running into the same problem could give this a shot too?

Sure. But isn't the idea usually to keep your options open till you really, really need to commit?
I never have a real idea where a piece is going to end up when I start with it... I know some people hear the music in their head and then just have to write it down... Not me, I futz around... And keep what I like... Then I fuzz some more... Then I change stuff around... And so on and on... So for my unprofessional way of working keeping my options open till the end is best... I really don't like to go back 25 versions to find the "open" part to reimport or rerender it...

D.

There really is a certain magic to committing. It's an old school approach, when you only had a certain amount of gear and had to commit things to tape. Keeping all options until the end can end up making more work for you at the end rather than less.

There are times when you want to leave options open, for sure, but it can be really freeing to commit and not have much to do at the mix stage other than hit "export". I really like being comfortable with different ways of working, and being comfortable with committing is one of them. Just like having all the musicians play together at the same time, it gives you a certain feel you can't get working other ways. It forces you down a different road, so to speak, and can be great for those who tend to put things off and NOT make decisions (and then not finish much).

It's not the only way of working for me, but it's one of my "tricks" that I bring out from time to time, especially when working with live instrument and running them through pedals etc.

Try it sometime - it's actually quite exciting and a little scary, in a musically inspiring way IMO.

Totally agree. Playing together is one of the most magical things you can do as a musician. Something you will never achieve when stopping a machine over and over again and editing notes and things. It's like a game, you start and can not stop. More an more electronic stuff can be done live too which is cool. Going for those unexpected moments.

Years ago Ableton Live could only do audio. I loved that. I only recorded audio. That was so nice. I still miss it.

[sonicbyte]

Sorry my ignorance, but can anybody tell me why we should need some filter like this ? Isn't the same like use any HP filter and a distortion already available in reason's ssl or any synth for instance ?

Sorry again for my ignorance

[eusti]

Sorry my ignorance, but can anybody tell me why we should need some filter like this ? Isn't the same like use any HP filter and a distortion already available in reason's ssl or any synth for instance ?

Sorry again for my ignorance

Sound quality. But if you do not hear the difference, I'd say that you won't be needing it.

D.

[submonsterz]

I know filters are heavy on dsp but nope this is severe akk . Not for me this one sorry to say .

[jonheal]

On my lousy core 2 duo, total processor utilization increases by about 20% when that device is on and I twiddle knobs. I haven't gone through them all, but some other devices add about 10% extra processor utilization. But I can see how if you had a lot of devices loaded, that extra 10% might start hurting.

[gak]

Well, the real problem is (and live suffers from this too, in some ways) is once it get's past about 3-4 bars, you start getting "can't run" errors. In fact, until I got the excellent RME babyface, I'd get crackling when scrolling (which started for me with 8.3) and I have a 4770k

That should be on props end, not the plug.

I'ma pass on this one until I get my weird issues figured out.

[Spryx]

I can get 7 instances chained together on an old i7-930 before the DSP is maxed. I think it is worth it though.

[jonheal]

I can get 7 instances chained together on an old i7-930 before the DSP is maxed. I think it is worth it though.

Please; do not refer to an i7 as "old" while my core2duo can still shuffle its walker across the floor.

[joeyluck]

I can get 7 instances chained together on an old i7-930 before the DSP is maxed. I think it is worth it though.

Please; do not refer to an i7 as "old" while my core2duo can still shuffle its walker across the floor.

Haha. core2duo here as well! 2008 MBP. Still going strong!

[Spryx]

lol. It could do with some optimization for sure. Not sure how much of this is possible using SPICE techniques.

[Data_Shrine]

Great sounds from listening to the demo's (filter sweep is especially nice!)

[Skullture]

I am really interested but is this thing really a CPU-hog?

[Faastwalker]

Kind of a shame this one is 39, twice the price of their previous filter device

(ducks for cover for daring to bring up RE price concerns!! )

[decibel]

Kind of a shame this one is 39, twice the price of their previous filter device

(ducks for cover for daring to bring up RE price concerns!! )

yeah, i do want, but might have to wait for a sale based on my current financial predicament

[K1TTENM1TTEN]

I am really interested but is this thing really a CPU-hog?

Short answer: Yes.

It is a very nice RE, but it does eat away at the DSP quite a bit when compared to other filter REs. Granted, I understand that this one is technically a different filtering system, but I still think it is fair to compare filters to filters.

[selig]

I am really interested but is this thing really a CPU-hog?

Short answer: Yes.

It is a very nice RE, but it does eat away at the DSP quite a bit when compared to other filter REs. Granted, I understand that this one is technically a different filtering system, but I still think it is fair to compare filters to filters.

IS this a different filtering "system", or is it that a different process was used to derive the algorithm (which might include analog anomalies)? If this is a "ladder" filter, then I would assume (though I'm certainly no expert) it MUST follow the circuit for a ladder filter, same as any other digital ladder filter. Inquiring minds would love to know - what exactly makes this different from the Ladder filter in Thor or Antidote?

[pjeudy]

IS this a different filtering "system", or is it that a different process was used to derive the algorithm (which might include analog anomalies)? If this is a "ladder" filter, then I would assume (though I'm certainly no expert) it MUST follow the circuit for a ladder filter, same as any other digital ladder filter. Inquiring minds would love to know - what exactly makes this different from the Ladder filter in Thor or Antidote?

Not sure if this will completely answer your question..take a look

For Ladder, your brand new RE, you’re using industrial circuit simulators. Can you explain what it is and how that works?
Nis: We are not using any industrial circuit simulators directly in our code. Instead the techniques we use are inspired by their approach. Circuit simulators, e.g., SPICE, works by translating circuit elements and their connections into nonlinear differential algebraic equations which are solved using iterative numerical methods such as Newton’s method. Doing so is computationally very intensive and unless you heavily optimize the numeric solver for the specific circuit it cannot be done in real­time. On the other hand the level of authenticity sound­wise, especially when the filter is overdriven, is much higher than with other approaches.

Ladder also has a saturation unit, what kind of modelling did you use for it?
Nis: We actually don’t have a separate saturation unit. The saturation arises inside the filter when the circuit elements (transistors, resistors, capacitors, etc.) are overdriven.

The sound of Ladder is very analogue, fat and warm sounding, even in the top high­end, what’s the secret?
Nis: All digital realizations of analogue equipment are approximations. The secret is simply to use a better (more accurate) model and solve it better (more accurately). Also we rely a lot on our ears, especially in corner­cases where we are not 100% sure what we are doing.

Is some kind of randomness a part of getting a more analogue sound?
Nis: The randomness/chaos that is difficult to model is that which arises in analogue gear because of feedback loops in the circuits. Take the moog ladder filter for instance; it consists of four 1­pole low­pass filters in sequence wrapped in a feedback­loop (the amount of feedback is controlled by the resonance). If the circuits didn’t contain any feedback the derived differential equations would be straightforward to solve. Many digital implementations of analogue filters resolves feedback by delaying it with one sample. Other implementations solves the equations analytically but then disregards the nonlinearities in the circuits (otherwise the equations cannot be solved analytically). As I talked about earlier we solve the equations exactly by using numeric methods which is why our filter sounds more realistic (but also why it uses a lot more CPU).

Interview with Primal Audio about designing Rack Extensions for Reason
http://melodiefabriek.com/blog/interview-primal-audio/

[selig]

Interesting. Resistors don't add distortion in the digital world. You ether add it yourself or its not there. Not sure what their answer is getting at, because if there is saturation they have added it, at least as far as I understand that world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JiggeryPokery]

Interesting. Resistors don't add distortion in the digital world. You ether add it yourself or its not there. Not sure what their answer is getting at, because if there is saturation they have added it, at least as far as I understand that world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's an odd interview. The questioning is curious: "You're using- " "No we're not". "You're also using- " No, we're not using that either". The questioner has far too many assumptions. Then some of the answers read like they've been copied from a Wikipedia entry.

The piece talks about the quality in the "high end"; it would be interesting to test and compare the results in 96 and 44.1. If there's no appreciable difference, then the "secret sauce" is ikely oversampling, which would largely explain the heavy CPU use, and all the guff about differential algebra can be safely ignored.

They also talk about avoiding one sample delay. So, they're using a zero delay feedback filter, like pretty much everyone else uses now.

[selig]

Interesting. Resistors don't add distortion in the digital world. You ether add it yourself or its not there. Not sure what their answer is getting at, because if there is saturation they have added it, at least as far as I understand that world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's an odd interview. The questioning is curious: "You're using- " "No we're not". "You're also using- " No, we're not using that either". The questioner has far too many assumptions. Then some of the answers read like they've been copied from a Wikipedia entry.

The piece talks about the quality in the "high end"; it would be interesting to test and compare the results in 96 and 44.1. If there's no appreciable difference, then the "secret sauce" is ikely oversampling, which would largely explain the heavy CPU use, and all the guff about differential algebra can be safely ignored.

They also talk about avoiding one sample delay. So, they're using a zero delay feedback filter, like pretty much everyone else uses now.

Here's everything you need to know about digital filters including ZDF technology, written by Vadim Zavalishin (developer of the Sync Modular software package and now working for Native Instruments on Reaktor).
http://www.discodsp.net/VAFilterDesign.pdf

[jonheal]

Yikes! You guys make it all sound like a scam!

[dhruan]

Nah, not a scam but how exactly it works is pondered here as the explanation provided by them doesn't seem to make sense. Could be something "lost in translation" or omitted on purpose. For whatever it is worth, as a single filter unit this became my favorite by a long lead to others. I love it, especially when overdriven, that distortion is just gnarly and playing with the self oscillation is also great fun. It is a bit higher priced both actual cost and CPU usage wise but the stuff I get out of it easy is very much worth it. Best piece of kit I have bought in a while.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[eXode]

Just compare with u-he Diva or NI Monark for instance. Urs previously stated that it would likely not be possible to run Diva on a single voice on the RE platform. It's not as simple as using zdf designs (obviously). There are other aspects such as implementing oversampling (and downsampling) and also implementing nonlinear feedback. As far as I know, nonlinearities are one thing that consumes CPU.

[JiggeryPokery]

Yikes! You guys make it all sound like a scam!

No, although in the shop there probably are one or two. There are certainly a couple that have deliberately mis-labelled functions that aren't what they say they are.

I don't believe that's true of Ladder; it's a very good device. But the interview amused me as it was nonsensical and rather unjustified.

[dhruan]

Well fuck me... should have waited for the Black Friday sale, wasn't really thinking that they would discount it for less than half price so soon. Oh well...