DSP Card For RE's

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mbfrancis
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10 Nov 2015

I just bought a new refurbed laptop: Dell i7 16GB Ram running W7. $850. Best decision I ever made, can basically run as much as I want and mix whatever I want.
Producer, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist. I make indie pop as Port Streets, 90s/shoegaze as Swooner, and Electro as Yours Mine.

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Mmj85
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10 Nov 2015

[quote="normen"]a) DSP cards don't give you more power than current CPUs (unless they're ridiculously packed with DSP chips, i.e. expensive)

Hi, Normen thank you for the summery you have described. From your perspective, is it possible to make an affordable DSP device that would alleviate DSP usage significantly within Reason? If so, what would be a fair price IYO?

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miscend
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10 Nov 2015

DSP cards will introduce much more latency with Rack Extensions. And right now Reason does not have latency compensation.

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Dante
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10 Nov 2015

I'm using the Scope XITE-1D for DSP based Mastering. Stereo output from Reason SSL via ASIO to the XITE-1D - also a couple of ASIO outputs from Scope synths back into Reason (driven by MIDI from a couple of Reason External MIDI Instrument).

Then the mastered output from Scope via ASIO back to Reason for mixdown.

So far - with my i7 4790 (16GB RAM, SSD) I've been running up to 80 tracks of mixed Audio, NNXT and RE - maybe 30 or 40 NNXT and RE - at 96KHz at 1ms latency and CPU meter hardly ever over 2/3.

Using only 3 - 4 channels of ASIO leaves plenty of CPU for running the Reason stuff.
XITE-1d.jpg
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mcatalao
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11 Nov 2015

Dante, I've had my eyes on that one. Very interesting stuff.

Anyway, my recent tests revealed reason in a similar pc like yours, can run up to 400 audio channels processed by the SSL without a glitch. The burthen starts when you add Multiple RE chains, or use very hunger processing synths. Even with reason core devices you can max out a 4790k with pulverizer, Thor and echo.

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Dante
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11 Nov 2015

Well, I got the very hungry synths covered by Scope - thats where DSP can make a difference - and the 'D' is only the small version (similar to a UAD2 Quad) - The larger version full XITE-1 would be similar to an Octo and then some.

Mastering thru DSP like Scope makes a real difference to the overall sound - with Scope at the end of chain - everything done in Reason sounds better, without VST loopback latency adds (as per UAD2). Scope isnt bound to VST like UAD.

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Gaja
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11 Nov 2015

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michal22
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11 Nov 2015

This is not a good idea for me. Freezing will be a better option. You make your first channel and you freeze it. In this way relieves the CPU. Now create a second channel. Do you want to edit the first channel? Defrosting him.

Simpler, always compatible in the future and cheaper solution.
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

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mcatalao
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11 Nov 2015

Michal22, you can already do that with reason, using the Bounce mixer channels option.
It gives you the possibility to bounce pre/post inputs, faders, etc. After bouncing, you can disable the tracks you bounced to relieve CPU.

However, it would be great that Propellerheads implemented a better Freese/unfreese option, as simply bypassing or disabling the synths still consume DSP. Also, if you have combinators, and disable or bypass the whole combinator, the devices in it will continue processing. So imagine you mute a pad synth that is a combinator with a too consuming device, it will keep consuming all the processing even when you disable.

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mcatalao
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11 Nov 2015

Dante wrote:Well, I got the very hungry synths covered by Scope - thats where DSP can make a difference - and the 'D' is only the small version (similar to a UAD2 Quad) - The larger version full XITE-1 would be similar to an Octo and then some.

Mastering thru DSP like Scope makes a real difference to the overall sound - with Scope at the end of chain - everything done in Reason sounds better, without VST loopback latency adds (as per UAD2). Scope isnt bound to VST like UAD.
I'm curious, how does Scope help you with the very hungry synths? If you're using that DSP engine only for mastering, and have, say 10 CPU hungry Synths on Reason, the only way i see that helping you is not directly related to the Synths. They are still inside reason.

Can you explain me the value on a purely performance analysis (aside using a different plugin format) of bringing the mastering process cpu cost to the external DSP, compared to render your mix, and open a new project?

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mcatalao
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11 Nov 2015

Oh sorry i re-read your post..I wasnt aware it could run the synths as an external midi device.

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Dante
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11 Nov 2015

Ya - synths inside Scope sound great, designed by John Bowen who made the Prophet synths with Dave Smith in the 80's, and more recently the hardware Solaris keyboard using the same DSP as Scope itself.

Theres 3 main ways I have used Scope DSP with Reason :

1) Mixing in Reason SLL then output to Scope XITE-1D for mastering
2) Output all channels from Reason to Scope XITE-1D then mix in Scope.
3) Rewire Reason to Cubase then output all ASIO to Scope XITE-1D for mixing.

I use method 1) above exclusively now because I find the Reason SSL the most convenient, fastest workflow. Plus it cuts down the ASIO count / CPU load. And I wont be paying for Cubase updates in future, just Reason and RE's !!!

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mcatalao
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11 Nov 2015

Yeah that's an interesting approach because until now I think these kind of cards were only audio processors.

Nonetheless, if you use reason synths the workload is on the CPU side again.

Anyway thanks for the info, I might take a look at their site.

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Dante
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11 Nov 2015

Yes. Using Reason synths is on native CPU.

And Scope is the only DSP platform that includes synths / instruments.

If you have Scope though, you wont just use Reason synths - it will be a mix of Reason and Scope ones. Most of the following (some top emulations) are included in the Scope price - look here as well as on their site :

ProTone : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_25/pro_mast.htm
MiniMax : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_19/max_mast.htm
ProOdyssey : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_15/pro_mast.htm
B2003 : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_01/b2003_rev.htm
Others : http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_09/syn_mast.htm

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ScuzzyEye
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11 Nov 2015

From what I understand using the Scope is like using any other external effect, except maybe it can return the audio to Reason with less (no?) latency.

Basically you only get MIDI control. So limited undo, and recall. You can't export a song to disk unless you print it in real time first.

I have a few rack-mount synths, they are connected to the MIDI ports on my audio interface, and also each gets its own audio inputs too. It's not a bad setup, but I'm working on cloning these devices so I can have them as REs, and put the hardware back on eBay. :)

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Dante
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11 Nov 2015

Its like an external effect in functionality, in that it runs independently of host CPU - but it still needs host itself to load up the virtual devices (project) in the first place. It connects physically to host similar to UAD2 Apollo via PCIe but after that the similarity ends since Scope does not need to interact with any VST layer - just ASIO / Midi / SP-DIF / ADAT / Analog I/O etc.

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michal22
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12 Nov 2015

mcatalao wrote:Michal22, you can already do that with reason, using the Bounce mixer channels option.
It gives you the possibility to bounce pre/post inputs, faders, etc. After bouncing, you can disable the tracks you bounced to relieve CPU.

However, it would be great that Propellerheads implemented a better Freese/unfreese option, as simply bypassing or disabling the synths still consume DSP. Also, if you have combinators, and disable or bypass the whole combinator, the devices in it will continue processing. So imagine you mute a pad synth that is a combinator with a too consuming device, it will keep consuming all the processing even when you disable.
I know what you can now. I wrote about the freeze button, not the duplication of tracks through the "bounce" option. I think the true freezing paths with the possibility of frostbite if necessary editing. Today, more and more people are buying SSD disks. On the other hand, processors are created to consume little power and are mobile. This is the future. Therefore freezing (which offloads processor) built-in mixer such as SSL is a good option in my opinion.
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

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normen
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12 Nov 2015

michal22 wrote:I know what you can now. I wrote about the freeze button, not the duplication of tracks through the "bounce" option. I think the true freezing paths with the possibility of frostbite if necessary editing. Today, more and more people are buying SSD disks. On the other hand, processors are created to consume little power and are mobile. This is the future. Therefore freezing (which offloads processor) built-in mixer such as SSL is a good option in my opinion.
Freezing is exactly the same as bouncing to another channel, just that the DAW "hides" the details. Actually doing it like Reason gives you the option to try and go back to the original and make the change and when you don't like it you go back to the already bounced channel without freezing/bouncing that channel again. I agree it can get a bit cumbersome to suddenly have twice the amount of channels though.

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michal22
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13 Nov 2015

normen wrote:Freezing is exactly the same as bouncing to another channel, just that the DAW "hides" the details. Actually doing it like Reason gives you the option to try and go back to the original and make the change and when you don't like it you go back to the already bounced channel without freezing/bouncing that channel again. I agree it can get a bit cumbersome to suddenly have twice the amount of channels though.
1. Yes, it is too cumbersome and inconvenient.
2. In large projects makes a big mess in the SSL mixer.
3. From my observation is that Reason not fully relieve the CPU resources for silencing devices in the sequencer. It is also cumbersome and time-consuming in the case of multiple devices.
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

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mcatalao
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13 Nov 2015

michal22 wrote: I know what you can now. I wrote about the freeze button, not the duplication of tracks through the "bounce" option. I think the true freezing paths with the possibility of frostbite if necessary editing. Today, more and more people are buying SSD disks. On the other hand, processors are created to consume little power and are mobile. This is the future. Therefore freezing (which offloads processor) built-in mixer such as SSL is a good option in my opinion.
Whatever, man, i was just trying to help.
You can use the workaround or you can wait for a new release with a complete freese function. Your call.

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michal22
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13 Nov 2015

mcatalao wrote:Whatever, man, i was just trying to help.
You can use the workaround or you can wait for a new release with a complete freese function. Your call.
Yes, I know, and thank you. Sorry if you took my answer wrong. I did not mean anything bad. Though I must admit that when one hears the tenth time the answer that he can do something that is a bit annoying. :) I meant to improve the current process. No offense. :)
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

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mcatalao
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13 Nov 2015

Fine michal22. You wrote about the freese function, i do not know your level of expertise in Reason and when propose a workaround i'm not doing it in any offensive way. We learn things every day!
I just learned we can edit note velocities of single notes with the alt key in another thread, and i work with this software for 10 years.

It's great to learn things with other people. Right?

Cheers,
MC

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michal22
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13 Nov 2015

mcatalao wrote:Fine michal22. You wrote about the freese function, i do not know your level of expertise in Reason and when propose a workaround i'm not doing it in any offensive way. We learn things every day!
I just learned we can edit note velocities of single notes with the alt key in another thread, and i work with this software for 10 years.

It's great to learn things with other people. Right?

Cheers,
MC
You are 100% right. Greetings. :)
Ableton Live Suite 10 / Reason 10 / Windows 10 / Fingers - also 10 ;)

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