DSP when using Driver and FM4 synths

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Morphic1977
Posts: 34
Joined: 30 Mar 2015
Location: Slovakia, Bratislava

24 Jul 2015

Hi everyone,

I would like to ask for your experience when using RE synths Driver and FM4.

Both synths are brutally heavy on my PC performance when playing some patches.
I found that it is connected with polyphony and long amp release. Switching to mono drops DSP instantly to more comfort level. Especially Driver pushes DSP to extremes.
The DSP spikes are so intensive like when using some fat (I mean really fat) combinators with plenty of instances of Antidotes, or Predators and plenty of effects.

Does have anybody similar problems?.

Thanks

Martin
:reason: :PUF_balance: :ignition: :re: :refill:

Nektar Panorama P4, Many of REs and couple of refills...
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Slovakia, Bratislava

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challism
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Posts: 4642
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Fanboy Shill, Boomertown

24 Jul 2015

I haven't used Driver. I trialed FM4, and really liked it, but the DSP usage was just too high for me, so I had to pass. The developer says they will work to correct that eventually. But until that happens, I can't justify buying it.
Players are to MIDI what synthesizers are to waveforms.

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nikolafeve
Posts: 71
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Paris
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24 Jul 2015

The same here. Really liked both synths (specially Driver) but i didn't buy because of it...
My two first criterias when i trial RE are latency (now only buy 0 latency RE) and cpu usage. The RE format is not good about the cpu needed compared to the other formats for the same (or better) results
We need to deal with that in mind for the moment at least
Reason 10 - UA Apollo Twin -  OSX 10.13.6 - MacBook Pro 15inch 2018 - 2.2Ghz Intel Core i7 - RAM 16GB 2400 Mhz DDR4 - Radeon Pro 555X 4096 MB

thala
Posts: 87
Joined: 15 Apr 2015

25 Jul 2015

nikolafeve wrote:The same here. Really liked both synths (specially Driver) but i didn't buy because of it...
My two first criterias when i trial RE are latency (now only buy 0 latency RE) and cpu usage. The RE format is not good about the cpu needed compared to the other formats for the same (or better) results
We need to deal with that in mind for the moment at least
so, in your signature we can see you are a mac user... they perform really bad, see theos post. win7 users have a performance in reason more like other vst based daws.
but back to driver:
i rebuilded the driver setup with thor.
mode: supersaw
with single thor analog oscillators (not the optimised spread osc). and a rv7000mk1 for every 5or6 osc.
copied the setup inside a combi multiple to test how it would perform like playing driver with 6 voices polyphon.
et voila, even thor is cpu hungry then. the typical driver reverb sound (a bit metallic?) was automatically rebuilded too. this happens, if every voice has its own reverb.
in total, that thor/rv7000 setup performed only some xx % better, then driver. while beeing a hell to program sounds.

conclusion:
deactivate drivers reverb and it will perform much better.
good sound will always need lots of resources. thats a fact. quality always cost a lot.
and fm4 and driver are really fat/raw sounding.
kHs One and antidote are another examples...
there are a lot of things going on in the background. this have to be taken into account.

just my experiences...

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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

25 Jul 2015

thala wrote:
nikolafeve wrote:The same here. Really liked both synths (specially Driver) but i didn't buy because of it...
My two first criterias when i trial RE are latency (now only buy 0 latency RE) and cpu usage. The RE format is not good about the cpu needed compared to the other formats for the same (or better) results
We need to deal with that in mind for the moment at least
so, in your signature we can see you are a mac user... they perform really bad, see theos post. win7 users have a performance in reason more like other vst based daws.
but back to driver:
i rebuilded the driver setup with thor.
mode: supersaw
with single thor analog oscillators (not the optimised spread osc). and a rv7000mk1 for every 5or6 osc.
copied the setup inside a combi multiple to test how it would perform like playing driver with 6 voices polyphon.
et voila, even thor is cpu hungry then. the typical driver reverb sound (a bit metallic?) was automatically rebuilded too. this happens, if every voice has its own reverb.
in total, that thor/rv7000 setup performed only some xx % better, then driver. while beeing a hell to program sounds.

conclusion:
deactivate drivers reverb and it will perform much better.
good sound will always need lots of resources. thats a fact. quality always cost a lot.
and fm4 and driver are really fat/raw sounding.
kHs One and antidote are another examples...
there are a lot of things going on in the background. this have to be taken into account.

just my experiences...

actually my post was more that reason windows when optimised correctly blows reason mac performance out of the water.
Vst windows performance blows mac vst by a much larger margin - result: reason windows is not performing as well as vst windows, not by a long shot.. reason still has much optimisation to do. Windows reason CAN play to reason's max dsp usage at low latency without crackles and pops..unlike the mac.. but that actual ceiling is lower than cubase for example. Hope that makes sense.. ie cubase can do 4x-8x the project size and instrument and fx amount on the same machine ;) Even when RE's can use SSE, things will improve for RE usage yes, but reason itself will still have limitations and using only 3 threads for plugins out of an 8 thread processor is a prime example (cubase will hammer all 8 threads with plugins as will S1, live, etc).

I still have many more results I am compiling which will show actual RE count vs VST count, and more win vs mac RE count numbers instead of just Tsar...because I do things really thoroughly, it all takes time but lots of results coming. :)

thala
Posts: 87
Joined: 15 Apr 2015

25 Jul 2015

you`re completly right theo, but from a reason-only-users-view you will compare one RE-Synth to another RE-Synth (in the case above).
then you will see one synth perform better than another.
the point that i was writing around was: lots of things going on in a RE = lots of CPU usage

as we could see in rob papen REs, sometimes optimizing can give a performance boost 20-30%.
but this amount is just nothing, compared to loss of performance if you switch to a macBook.

example:
i did a big combinator patch (attached), that uses just 2,5 Bars of CPU on my laptop (win7 i7-3,2Ghz with good cooling, 16GB Ram)
this i send to a mac user (i7 2,9Ghz, 16GB ram). even after deleting most of the "tap-in"- delays, antidote, buffre and the other effects he wasnt able to play that combinator :/

so, if a RE uses lots of CPU (unoptimised or just lots of things going on...) the mac users would remark this, while it on windows seems no difference (unless you hook up lots devices to test your cpu).
on my old small win7 laptop (i3 2,2Ghz, 4!GB Ram) i only needed to delete the 2 longest tap in delays, cause of lack of memory (the combinator needs 4,5 GB Ram).
this is sooooo unbelieveable. a used 150 € laptop blowed away a xxxx€ macbook :/

btw, have fun with that combi :)
it seems to be a stress test for some systems.

Edit: changed attachment for easier entry of combi use
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Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

25 Jul 2015

thala wrote:you`re completly right theo, but from a reason-only-users-view you will compare one RE-Synth to another RE-Synth (in the case above).
then you will see one synth perform better than another.
the point that i was writing around was: lots of things going on in a RE = lots of CPU usage

as we could see in rob papen REs, sometimes optimizing can give a performance boost 20-30%.
but this amount is just nothing, compared to loss of performance if you switch to a macBook.

example:
i did a big combinator patch (attached), that uses just 2,5 Bars of CPU on my laptop (win7 i7-3,2Ghz with good cooling, 16GB Ram)
this i send to a mac user (i7 2,9Ghz, 16GB ram). even after deleting most of the "tap-in"- delays, antidote, buffre and the other effects he wasnt able to play that combinator :/

so, if a RE uses lots of CPU (unoptimised or just lots of things going on...) the mac users would remark this, while it on windows seems no difference (unless you hook up lots devices to test your cpu).
on my old small win7 laptop (i3 2,2Ghz, 4!GB Ram) i only needed to delete the 2 longest tap in delays, cause of lack of memory (the combinator needs 4,5 GB Ram).
this is sooooo unbelieveable. a used 150 € laptop blowed away a xxxx€ macbook :/

btw, have fun with that combi :)
it seems to be a stress test for some systems.

Edit: changed attachment for easier entry of combi use

very very true.. you can get ALOT more done with reason on windows, and therefore, if one is using only reason as their main daw, I can only recommend windows as the right OS for it. I will be slowly switching myself over some time, when I am certain the auth problems can be fixed and i can work solely in reason (today i got to 99% multiple times and failed, i have given up, i can't use reason today as all my songs use RE's and even my default template does) - after 20 tries I am over it for today, i went through an entire movie in the backround to kill time as i kept trying and failing. Just one demo, one RE update.. and all chaos ensues here, and I am unable to use what i have given props thousands of dollars for...but this really does belong to my other topic (sorry, just it's really put me in a foul one).

thala
Posts: 87
Joined: 15 Apr 2015

25 Jul 2015

wow, thats hard. normally (not during Mega sales) i dont have any problems with downloading licenses (2Mbit internet takes a while, location germany). the license process is only corrupted, when i am doing something else on the internet, while downloading the license. it seems that the license have to be downloaded without timeouts (or something similar like a constant stream).
so, just updating licenses is no prob. if i install a new RE + license, the license download fails one time. just "sync all" after the RE download is ready, works pretty fine for me.
or is this a location problem with australia? no continous license stream?

WLAN? i am wired to internet...
Was that film on your HDD? or internet-stream?
somebody else surfing via smartphone/WLAN?
all these would break my license process...
so for me its: start it and go away, getting a coffee

User avatar
Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

25 Jul 2015

thala wrote:wow, thats hard. normally (not during Mega sales) i dont have any problems with downloading licenses (2Mbit internet takes a while, location germany). the license process is only corrupted, when i am doing something else on the internet, while downloading the license. it seems that the license have to be downloaded without timeouts (or something similar like a constant stream).
so, just updating licenses is no prob. if i install a new RE + license, the license download fails one time. just "sync all" after the RE download is ready, works pretty fine for me.
or is this a location problem with australia? no continous license stream?

WLAN? i am wired to internet...
Was that film on your HDD? or internet-stream?
somebody else surfing via smartphone/WLAN?
all these would break my license process...
so for me its: start it and go away, getting a coffee

hard drive playback on itunes, internet solely devoted to props, all firewalls disabled.. it's common place here, and i should not have brought it up in this topic but will update my other accordingly. It finally worked after about 30 tries. Even if i agree to never demo an RE again, it means i can't even do simple free RE bug fix updates as they trigger an update license as well. I go through this hell 3 or 4 times a week, and Mattias was really cold about it and said they would look at it when they get back from holidays, i asked when that may be, he said he would not give out that info.
I have given them over 4 thousand US dollars and they don't even give a toss to priority help so i can use my software. Sorry but a problem like this is serious especially when I give them video evidence and they should absolutely have someone on hand all times of the year to fix server issues. I couldn't care less if they are in antarctica, this needs to be fixed. I'm literally a hair away from a lawsuit and calling for their sales to be suspended in australia. There I go again, sorry I am so mad, i can't stop rambling about it.. probably best i leave the forum for a few hours. I did give mattias 30 days and then i make an official fair trading complaint, so will see what happens from there. I wish i had gotten today on video, that would have caused anyone to feel like nails on a chalkboard right through it LOL. (and yes it happens on my windows machine as well, and yes it happens using either my 4g connection or my home adsl2+, so there you go).

thala
Posts: 87
Joined: 15 Apr 2015

25 Jul 2015

this really remembers me in my world of warcraft-time and the routing problems between huge ISPs...
is it only australia? or did someone else have such problems?

did you traceroute? are there time outs?

User avatar
Theo.M
Posts: 1035
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

25 Jul 2015

thala wrote:this really remembers me in my world of warcraft-time and the routing problems between huge ISPs...
is it only australia? or did someone else have such problems?

did you traceroute? are there time outs?
mattias acknowledged the problem and said the more RE's the worse it is. I have 150. He seemed completely care free in his reply IMHO.

Another user on my side of the world suffers the same issues. I counted 20 members with issues that were vocal about it at the PUF and a few here.. so I am not alone..

It's a very disturbing issue for me cause i know I have to go through it every time i see the update license prompt. One out of ten times, it updates in seconds.

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