Ochen K Carve update. Did it fix low end issues?

[Theo.M]

Hey Theo. Thanks for your perspective. I do want to note that in my reply, I explicitly said that I'm totally okay with people talking about any issues with my devices in this or any other forum. I also explicitly said that it's totally up to any individual as to whether they email me in addition to or instead of posting their reflections here or in any other forum. So we both completely agree. This is a great place to discuss issues. I only pointed out that when a person who knows that I don't read these forums very often posts here but doesn't also contact me directly, it comes off, to me at least, that getting the issue addressed may not be the primary motivation for discussing the issue. Again, that's totally up to the poster and they have no obligation to report the issue to me directly. It's not how I'd handle it, but there's no requirement to handle it differently.

As for you question about the amount of reduction, at this point, I can't reproduce it. Selig uses tools that aren't in Reason and that I don't have, so his setup is different than mine. But I'll continue to look into it.

Thanks, very mature approach, sincere apologies if I at all misunderstood you. Ochen I haven't tried to reproduce that issue yet, and I don't have the tools to see it via a graph, so i might do my tests a little differently and see if I can reproduce it using just the reason spectrum analyser in combination with flower audio meter. Will report when I have done tests.

[Theo.M]

I really appreciate selig taking the time to do such detailed tests. Giles, you are to frequency graphs what I am to performance tests LOL - you really put the RE's through the ringer (and rightly so).

I find what you presented quite concerning, and in the meantime I am going to put carve to use for it's intended purpose (ie ducking the low end to make room for both bass and kick) and see what result I get. I might also use it in the mid range somewhere as I am using multiple pads in this track, to see if i can make all the pads blend better.

The thing is, and my question here.. even if carve is totally inaccurate, can't it still be tuned by ear to sound right? So the frequency is off, move it till it sounds right, the amount of ducking varies with frequency, move the amount knob till it sounds right.. doesn't that make the most sense?

The thing is, if Ochen fixes it, everyone's projects thus far that use carve, and i bet there are a lot of users of it, will sound different. I am unaware how he could fix it without changing all current saved projects that use it. All ears for any ideas!

How would you tune it by ear? Using the hi pass and lo pass to move the parameters left and right? Thanks

Yeah.. when it sounds right you have the frequency right.. as far as reduction, just use the amt knob... In beta testing I did have successful results with it so I was, I must admit, surprised when I read about the issues. But to be truthful, I haven't actually used it in the manner it was intended since I owned a license... I have used it for extreme special FX EQ ing and for those purposes it's been a lot of fun.

I have been doing a lot of trance with the typical kick duck bass and a mid bass, where I just eq'd a couple notches out along with a highpass, so i simply haven't needed carve as the low end has been tight and clean without it.. but when i start doing some more stuff with some serious sub bass I will use it more often of course. I also really want to try my idea that i said about making three overlapping pads in the mid ranges sit together in a mix properly.. i think it could work out great for that.. sometimes you want this really rich pad sound and no single device can do it.. and you combine a few different pads playing at once,, but it causes huge mud in the middle of the mix.. usually i just EQ but will give carve's dynamic approach a go.

[challism]

Ochen, I love your REs and think you are a great developer. I hope this thread didn't come across the wrong way. I just saw that Carve was very recently updated, and I wondered if the update was to fix the problem I had heard about earlier.

I think this forum is invaluable and I love that many of the developers and super start users are on here rubbing elbows with the rest of us. It's great! And I have learned so much from reading/talking with you guys.

[selig]

Wow, this took an unexpected turn!
Ochenk, I feel like you were possibly having a bad day when you wrote that stuff about me, and so I won't hold it against you. Just know I DID email you with a very detailed bug report back in January with these very same graphs, and I never heard back from you. Last I heard, you were "looking into it" (Jan 20 IIRC). Also know that it is very frustrating for me to read false negative assumptions about myself publicly, as I feel I've worked extremely hard over the years to cultivate a positive vibe with my presence on these and other forums.

Those who know me know I have always done this sort of detailed technical reporting for the benefit of ALL, users and developers alike. Knowledge of what's going on behind the scenes should not be seen as "slagging" a device. I've had only positive feedback and encouragement to date - if you take issue with my reporting or my methods, by all means let's discuss it here!

My sincere apologies if I've offended you in any way or given you the wrong impression of my intentions, and know I don't take anything you said about me personally. You are a passionate developer who's constant participation in these forums is highly valued by myself and others, and I would hate for you to stop hanging out here because of anything I've done!

For the public record I want you to know that I have absolutely no intention of "slagging" anyone here, certainly not you (despite what it "seems like" to you), and I hope my actions over the years have demonstrated that intention. Please PM or email me if you wish to discuss this matter further.

I'll recuse myself from further comments on your devices in the future to ensure there are no hard feelings between us!

[selig]

In this case, assuming the kick frequency doesn't move, you can get far more precise results with a simple dynamic EQ setup (RE or Combinator), which will have a more precise frequency response (potentially more narrow as well), control over the exact dB level being ducked, and a much faster response time (a few ms vs over 100 ms) when using the MClass Compressor/EQ in a Combinator.

Giles would it be better then to use something like CodeDiggers DQ Dynamic Processor rather than Carve? How else might this be achieved? Perhaps using cv out from a compressor to reduce frequencies using cv in on an EQ device?

Thanks

I'll refrain from answering this here because of recent events - hope you'll understand!

[ochenk]

Hey Selig. Thanks for the response. There's no hard feelings at all. As you know, for independent developers like us, reputation is really important. It's sometimes frustrating when a question or issue is posted, but I don't see it for days, and in the mean time, a long thread develops based on that first report. After a bunch of posts about the issue, I eventually see it and explain what's going on. Sometimes it's an actually bug. But just as often, it's not a bug but either a misunderstanding of how a device works, or an easy explanation, or sometimes just user error. But what remains is a bunch of posts about a problem, followed by my response, often followed with some sort of "Oh, I guess it's not a bug. Nevermind." But that post lives on for everyone to see. So how many people read all the way through to see that it's not a bug, versus how many just see the headline and think that there's some problem with a device? That's why I request that people email me as well - so I can try to address it early in the thread. As you can imagine, when someone knows all of this, but still posts here without letting me know, and long threads follow, it's doubly frustrating. But no, it's nothing personal. We're all good.

[selig]

Hey Selig. Thanks for the response. There's no hard feelings at all. As you know, for independent developers like us, reputation is really important. It's sometimes frustrating when a question or issue is posted, but I don't see it for days, and in the mean time, a long thread develops based on that first report. After a bunch of posts about the issue, I eventually see it and explain what's going on. Sometimes it's an actually bug. But just as often, it's not a bug but either a misunderstanding of how a device works, or an easy explanation, or sometimes just user error. But what remains is a bunch of posts about a problem, followed by my response, often followed with some sort of "Oh, I guess it's not a bug. Nevermind." But that post lives on for everyone to see. So how many people read all the way through to see that it's not a bug, versus how many just see the headline and think that there's some problem with a device? That's why I request that people email me as well - so I can try to address it early in the thread. As you can imagine, when someone knows all of this, but still posts here without letting me know, and long threads follow, it's doubly frustrating. But no, it's nothing personal. We're all good.

Thanks for that, and same here - I have tons of respect for your work, and your new synth looks and sounds absolute amazing! One last thing - you DO remember that I DID email you with this issue back in January with a very detailed report (hope you got it)? Just don't want you to think I'm not aware of what a developer deals with day to day.

[eusti]

Not sure how this can be solved... Whenever I see a thread like this one, I try to send you an email...
I'd like the devs to able to deal with this as early as possible...

Going through this thread I see that you had responded quite early on... There is a "notify me when a reply is posted" check box under the reply form that might be of help...

Other than that you might consider putting up some google alerts with the names of your REs and your name to stay on top of things...

I know these things take time, but not sure what else to suggest...

D.

[challism]

I thought I remembered seeing Ochen chiming in on the original thread discussing this issue. So I thought he was already aware of the issue at hand. When I saw Carve was updated "Update 1.0.2 Low frequency distortion bug fixed." I thought that it was a fix to this issue. So I was kind of posting this thread as a way to wrap up the original problem that was posted.... trying to confirm that the original issue was fixed. It seems like it had been fixed given the language of the update notes posted in the Propshop.